Leeds United and Burnley have written to the Premier League accusing Everton of breaching Profitability and Sustainability rules.
The joint letter was sent on May 13, with both clubs asking for an independent commission to investigate Everton's financial situation within six weeks of their correspondence.
The two clubs who are embroiled in a battle to avoid the last relegation slot have threatened to start legal proceedings and bring about a claim for substantial damages against Everton and the Premier League after the Blues reported combined losses of £370M over the last 3 years.
According to the Premier League's Profit and Sustainability rules, a club can lose a maximum of £105M over a 3-year period. Should there be a breach of such rule, a club could face sanctions - including possible points deductions for serious breaches.
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Everton have responded: "We have worked so closely with the Premier League to make sure we are compliant and we are comfortable we have complied with the rules.
"External auditors have told us what we can and cannot claim against the pandemic.
"If they want to take legal action then they can do so by all means."
Reader Comments (190)
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1 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:01:08
The article is in The Times behind a paywall.
2 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:13:10
I don't know whether it's gutter press or sour grapes but there would be riots if it affected this season.
It may be that there is points deducted next season or the Premier League simply say that they were not concerned as Moshiri underwrote the financial situation meaning bankruptcy (which is what it was set up to avoid) was never an issue.
I don't really know the technicalities of it but I'm sure Paul the Esk can advise accordingly.
3 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:22:12
“We have worked so closely with the Premier League to make sure we are compliant we are comfortable we have complied with the rules. External auditors have told us what we can and cannot claim against the pandemic. If they want to take legal action then they can do so by all means.”
The Premier League declined to comment to the The Times.
4 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:27:09
And if so, Leeds and Burnley aint prejudiced... What a pity these two losers can't both be relegated.
5 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:27:27
That makes me feel a bit more confident about the situation.
6 Posted 20/05/2022 at 17:48:13
7 Posted 20/05/2022 at 18:13:57
8 Posted 20/05/2022 at 18:56:25
Soccer sure is confusing.
9 Posted 20/05/2022 at 19:04:24
10 Posted 20/05/2022 at 19:57:11
Leeds & Burnley threaten legal action against Everton and Premier League over handling of club's finances. [BBC]
Funny how it's only Leeds and Burnley moaning... wonder why?
11 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:00:54
12 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:10:09
A pair of shithouse clubs with Orc fans. Shame they can't both go down.
13 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:16:46
I'd love to see another club make a case that Everton have unfairly benefited on the field from the chaotic mess of transfer activity over the last six years or so (as opposed to possible pure transgression of rules). A simple look at the table and results gives the answer.
Wonder if Burnley and Leeds will push for investigations to be re-opened against City, in the interests of the same "Sporting integrity"?
We may yet have trouble on the horizon from other areas, but I think whichever club doesn't go down on Sunday will magically lose interest.
14 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:17:21
All clubs were allowed to claim financial mitigations due to the impact of Covid. Everton may have pushed this to the limit (bit like their Premier League survival!) but I've read nothing to suggest that we went beyond what was allowable.
15 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:21:51
FA: "We have had complaints from teams in the Premier League complaining about us being lenient to Everton.
"I think we have clocked up big time. The lawsuits may come at us.
"We will sort this out, just make sure Everton go down – then there's no claim."
Fucking bastards, the lot of them.
16 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:22:59
Ignore this nonsense.
17 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:25:18
I've been under the impression that we have been liaising with the Premier League all along to make sure we are satisfactorily compliant. What more could we do?
I think the angle Leeds and Burnley are trying is that the Premier League itself got it wrong. I think they will struggle with that.
18 Posted 20/05/2022 at 20:59:58
19 Posted 20/05/2022 at 21:07:15
20 Posted 20/05/2022 at 21:22:23
I know they now realised the FA had gone against its word to make sure we went down like they said they would. Make no mistake we have survived this relegation scrap in spite of all the determination to sink us like a fish.
21 Posted 20/05/2022 at 21:58:18
So come on Leeds, get that win. It will be perfect if they do, as we will know beyond doubt just how important last night's win was.
22 Posted 20/05/2022 at 22:15:41
My good feelings of yesterday have turned to despair. Why is the FA so anti-Everton? Why is everyone so determined to see us relegated? Can any ToffeeWebber give me an answer that will cheer me up again. I feel miserable...
23 Posted 20/05/2022 at 22:19:22
He's as slippery as a greased eel and good luck to the virtuous ones who want to bring us to account. Leeds and Burnley? Hilarious.
24 Posted 20/05/2022 at 22:41:24
25 Posted 20/05/2022 at 23:06:01
Personally, I'm not surprised.
I just hope Moshiri has had the accountancy skills to prevent even more damage to us than he and his chosen ones have inflicted on us all on the back of half a wasted £billion+.
26 Posted 21/05/2022 at 01:38:14
This season's drama never ends... are we safe???
27 Posted 21/05/2022 at 06:23:06
From the Sky Sports article:
"Burnley and Leeds want Everton's finances thoroughly investigated and have asked for an independent commission to be set up to decide whether Everton have broken Premier League rules and whether they have a case to answer.
They have asked for the commission to be set up within six weeks of the date of their letter (May 13).
They want this dealt with before next season's fixtures are released on June 16. They want a quick resolution - unlike the Premier League's investigation into Manchester City's alleged breaches of Financial Fair Play rules which have been going on for more than 3 years.
There is believed to have been encouragement from other Premier League clubs to take this course of action."
If this was April 1, I would have laughed it off, but this is serious. You could not make this up!
28 Posted 21/05/2022 at 06:40:23
I'm not even worried for several reasons.
Firstly, Everton apparently entered into some kind of deal with the Premier League whereby they approve our deals.
Secondly, as Carlo pointed out a year ago, six teams tried to form a breakaway league and got away Scot-free.
Thirdly, and most importantly: money. Being a cynical money-obsessed league, why in the fuck would the Premier League want to lose Everton, with its appeal and fanbase, to keep small-town Burnley and their 17,000 fans? Even Leeds with a similar attendance lack the history and indeed the serious local rivalry of Everton.
Beyond that, the Premier League Profitability and Sustainability Rules don't even have points deductions anywhere near the top of their list.
Also, it's funny this issue only arises now with one game left. If Leeds or anyone else were that arsed about it, then why not raise it months ago? This is just a Hail Mary desperation move.
29 Posted 21/05/2022 at 08:02:47
All this will do is make us take delight in one of them being relegated. Both clubs sacked coaches that had given them so much, and may well have saved them. They really don't look very classy.
30 Posted 21/05/2022 at 08:29:53
The Premier League will never agree to a precedent where commissions and court cases supersede the decisions they make and what happens on the pitch. Everton have had external auditors approve what can be designated as a Covid-related cost and the accounts have then been agreed with the Premier League.
We also showed a commitment to reduce costs by spending less than £2M in the last summer transfer market, and we have a number of high-earning players whose contracts expire in June – Tosun, Delph, Kenny, the Nameless One plus other players like Gomes and Gbamin who will leave. Unfortunately, I think we will need to sell to finance a restructure of the squad and could see one or more of Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, Mina and Pickford go.
Pretty desperate stuff from Burnley and Leeds. Your teams didn't do it on the pitch, which is why one of you will go down. The same would have applied to us if we didn't get the result on Thursday.
31 Posted 21/05/2022 at 08:58:26
32 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:00:44
33 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:02:53
They will have told us that, in order to comply, we can't spend any money on transfers. Hence the offloading of Moise Kean, James Rodriguez, Bernard etc and replacing them with free transfers and a nominal £1.6M fee for Demarai Gray. The winter business only happened because we sold Digne.
Burnley and Leeds will not get anywhere with this, it's a last gasp show of utter desperation now the prospect of relegation has become a reality.
34 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:06:01
If there is a penalty (ie, points deduction) it should be in next season, not this, so whichever of Burnley or Leeds go down, that still happens. This is clearly sour grapes.
It is really disappointing because where does this end?
(1) Do Everton sue the Premier League for all the wrong VAR decisions (of which we have had many) and the points we have missed out on?
(2) What happened to the teams that were going to break-away into the European Super League? I remember at the time points deductions were discussed but absolutely no penalties have been applied.
I think comparing us to Aston Villa and Newcastle Utd is like comparing apples and pears. We have gambled season on season since Moshiri took charge, hoping to have a breakthrough where we would reach the Champions League. This has meant we have had a higher cost base (mainly players' wages) and, with Covid and the reductions in matchday revenue, it has had a significant impact.
I really do hope Everton have done their due diligence and accounting correctly; otherwise, we are in for another rollercoaster ride!!!!
35 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:12:33
Dont really care which of them go down but slight preference for Burnley to escape as they do a good peppered steak pie.
36 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:32:02
This feels like an a desperate attempt by them to avert blame for their relegation.
“Its not our fault! Everton cheated!”
37 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:32:55
Even non-conspiracy theorists have cast doubts over the officials' performances in recent months and there has been a nagging doubt that the Premier League itself would be better served if Everton FC was in a different league so they could wash their hands of the issues arising from Financial Fair Play.
If Everton Football Club has complied with the Premier League as it claims it has, then there is possibly nothing to worry about and the two relegation threatened clubs are chancing their arms for redemption or for financial gain.
I don't believe that points can or should be deducted this season, but if the public clamour grows and the media starts a bandwagon, who knows how the Premier League will respond, there is also the political climate to consider, given the Ukraine war and the current governments desire to be seen to be doing the right or more likely the popular thing.
38 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:35:54
With this season consisting of lower transfer costs and working with the Premier League, Everton appear to have an agreed plan in place to rectify the situation.
It is not a bad thing to get this shot across the bows, since it will mean that redressing FFP is a priority and hopefully the poor performance in administration and internal management are addressed urgently.
39 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:39:14
40 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:49:22
41 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:50:42
I've never bought into us being victims but some decisions have been questionable this season.
42 Posted 21/05/2022 at 09:59:30
It's going to be interesting to see how this story develops, because it sounds like these two clubs feel that Everton might have been “cooking the books” and I'm sure they are asking for independent auditors to investigate.
43 Posted 21/05/2022 at 10:24:54
Well the first might or might not be true, but as for 'gain advantage' we've spunked millions and are worse off points-wise and player-wise.
If it wasn't for one of the few things money can't buy – proper support from the terraces – we would be below both them and Leeds (dirty, dirty Leeds) and probably there'd be nothing said.
Strange how, now we've just opened a 4-point gap with one to play due to intangibles totally unrelated to any money overspent, that they pipe up now.
I thought sacking Dyche was the final 'Hail Mary', this is whatever trumps that... Forlorn Hope?
They're not too squeaky clean over in their own glass house... and who cares about Leeds (dirty, dirty Leeds)?
44 Posted 21/05/2022 at 10:28:24
Having read it, at first I was shocked, then senses took hold again and I had to laugh. Cheeky fuckers. Talk about clutching at straws. Reminded me of the West Ham / Sheffield Utd saga a few years back with Tevez and Mascerinho.
End of the day, our losses related to Covid are massive compared to other clubs, which does seem odd. However, the accounts were released late exactly due to the club going through everything with a fine toothcomb to satisfy the auditors and the Premier League. I'm sure we're flying close to the wind but, end of the day, as noted by others, auditors and the Premier League have signed off. For the challenge to be successful, Leeds Utd and Burnley will have to prove not just Everton but also Deloitte and the Premier League are wrong – good luck with that!
Also, anything will take months to sort out so I'm not worried about us being in the Premier League fixture list in a few weeks time.
To be honest, if I were Leeds or Burnley, I'd probably do the same. All a bit desperate though.
One thing's for sure, I can see us selling one of Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison to get a Pofit & Loss boost to help the numbers and cash flow. I just hope it's the former and not the latter.
45 Posted 21/05/2022 at 10:55:41
It's almost as if they have an agenda…
46 Posted 21/05/2022 at 11:13:28
As regards FFP, I'm still seething over how West Ham got a brand new stadium free at taxpayers' expense in return for a nominal annual rent.
47 Posted 21/05/2022 at 11:17:48
This is a non-story. If the Premier League allowed independent auditors to scrutinise Profitability and Sustainability at the request of other clubs, we would have this circus every season.
48 Posted 21/05/2022 at 11:44:04
This is sour grapes pure and simple from Leeds and Burnley, horrible fucking clubs who both deserve to go down.
One thing though if the FA want to open the Financial Fair Play can of worms, then Man City and Chelsea should also be looked at Man City especially. Man City can't even fill their ground most weekends so how they have been able to spend billions is beyond me.
Newcastle are already saying that their spend will have to be within the rules, so how Man City have got away with it is beyond me.
49 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:01:50
Even if this is so, the court case will focus on the actions of the football authorities and their behaviour towards EFC. Our financial position will be the specimen case by which the actions of these authorities are judged.
Basically, we are not on trial, they are on trial and they will not like being examined forensically. They (the football authorities) have leeway to interpret their own rules and absolute power to dispense punishment, a judge and/or jury though, will coldly look at their rules and decide: Did they stay within them or make a special case for EFC?
Even to my let's say primitive accounting and financial knowledge, our financial affairs look a bit "Arthur Daley" dodgy. The courts I feel will have no problems being sympathetic to little Burnley and Leeds given the horrific events taking place elsewhere and given any association of our funding with one of Putin's best mates.
50 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:10:59
51 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:16:10
I hope that your possibilities do not come about, but I would venture one question: Do you think that Leeds United and Burnley would have raised the matter if they were mid-table teams?
I think I know your answer, although I could be wrong.
52 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:18:10
53 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:31:04
I can see where you're coming from, their legal threat looks now a bit "after the fact", but to a court I doubt that will matter. Burnley and Leeds are commercial enterprises and will not waste resources in an expensive court battle unless they have to.
The event of one of them going down will now happen and so a court battle now makes sense.
54 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:34:41
I doubt very much one of those clubs will be thinking of taking the Premier League and Everton to court when they escape relegation on Sunday and I'll await with interest if the losing one carries out this threat.
55 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:35:33
This is nothing but sour grapes and grasping at straws. My guess is, once the relegation places are sorted, whichever one of them stays up will stab the other in the back and drop out of the complaint.
It's never a good optic when clubs threaten legal action to gain something they couldn't do on the pitch. It's better to accept your fate and retain your club's dignity.
I'm sure whichever one of them goes down they'll have a very strong chance of coming back up again. So work on that instead of pursuing moaning litigation.
56 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:41:28
57 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:46:55
It always comes down to money.
58 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:52:20
They managed to get themselves reinstated in the Champions League by crying their eyes out and were given mighty task of beating TNS Data Systems to get back in.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if they threw another tantrum and were given the prem.
59 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:54:23
Even if you're right the courts would never impose the sanctions - they'll leave that to the Premier League.
If the courts override the Premier League's ability and right as governing body to apply sanctions and institute their own independent sanction on Everton, imagine the type of precedent that would set?
Everyone and their mother would be suing, looking for the courts to ratify grievances. The play on the pitch wouldn't even matter, just sue to get what you want.
No court will ever look to become the adjudicating body, or set precedent for courts to become the adjudicating body, for the Premier League in England.
It'll never happen. We won't even get a points deduction. I see this as drama, selling newspapers, and fear porn.
60 Posted 21/05/2022 at 12:55:27
What has concerned me is the claim on the BBC that other clubs have expressed their surprise over our figures. Which clubs?
Having watched all the recent events unfolding on the pitch, it has been clear that some clubs have been putting in an extra special effort against us. The performances by Brentford and Palace in the last week, both 'safe' teams, were a surprise, for teams who have nothing to play for. By contrast, we have fared better against teams towards the top.
This is only an impression. Nevertheless, these two teams – who have no grudge against us from any historical events – seemed determined to make things as difficult as possible for us.
I understand that they have professional pride and must not show any favouritism for Everton but, whilst I can understand that they would want to give a good account of themselves, it does not explain some of the flagrant cheating that we experienced at their hands:
Toney trying to get Mykolenko sent off was extreme for what is a meaningless fixture for Brentford, then there was Ayew's challenge on Gordon – why such a dangerous tackle in a game that means so little to Palace?
And let's face it, Palace were going for it right to the bitter end. For me, this does not add up and correspond to what I have seen in many previous encounters of a similar nature involving other teams in a terminal relegation game.
Moreover, when we played Wimbledon and Coventry – even they both lost interest towards the ends of those respective games. So why were Brentford and Palace so committed?
Now this is just rhetoric, but could it be that we are being perceived as a special case by these rancorous, yo-yo spiv clubs, and they are determined to make life as difficult for us as possible? I will be very interested to see how Palace and Brentford perform this weekend…
I've never had any beef with either of those clubs – except hating that gobshite Toney – but now we must be aware that our fixtures with them from now on will have more than an element of grudge about them. We need to remember this.
I was surprised that the BBC article has made mention of our other deductible expenses – the new stadium, the academy and the women's team – as well as the impact of Covid. All the clubs in the Premier League have underwritten a commitment to the rules as they are applied by that body; what Burnley and Leeds are doing is second-guessing that process.
And clearly whilst other clubs (Brentford? Palace?...) have expressed concern, they have not gone as far as putting their name to any letter – that would be too risky – but Burnley and Leeds Utd have nothing much left to lose. They know that they won't get any retrospective points deduction levied against us, but they might hope to get a WHU v Sunderland sort of settlement.
I hope that neither of these quite despicable clubs get anything. And by 'despicable', I mean on the field and off.
And would not any further scrutiny be double jeopardy for Everton? Why in the name of grief should we face that? We have been co-operative and subscribed to having our transfers officially scrutinised and approved.
Furthermore, where would this leave the Premier League? Surely it is them that Burnley and Leeds Utd are targeting more than us.
Now, the conspiracy bit – I have noticed that the dodgiest decisions against us started in earnest at the end of February: Man City non-penalty. I could be wrong but, up to that point, things were pretty much like any other season – no truly 'sinister' decisions from earlier in the season stick out in my mind. Please correct me if I am wrong.
But that City game was concomitant with the upcoming publication of the Premier League's findings about our accounts. It is my conjecture that we have experienced a de facto points deduction.
I agree that this would a highly irregular and orthodox way of meting out a punishment, but I am viewing this situation through the fog that we all have to look through, and providing just one possible interpretation. I hope that it is wrong? Or do I?
But to return to my initial point; this is just another example of 'Toffee Baiting' to spoil our celebrations not 24 hours after claiming safety, particularly in view of the date of the letter (13 May 2022), which seems to have been kept in reserve until this moment. We need to face up to the fact that we are hated, and probably hated even more now. I say we use that hatred to bind us together.
But we absolutely must get our squad trimmed, and our spending priorities in order.
61 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:06:17
If the courts found the Premier League guilty, they will impose large fines to redress any suffering incurred by the relegated club.
There is though a greater significance to such a verdict, the Premier League would have been dragged through the courts, exposed and found guilty of wrong-doing. For such a prestigious institution as the Premier League, this would be a disaster and they'd want to avoid it.
62 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:07:20
That is true. But it is also no coincidence that, generally speaking, the clubs that spend the most end up at the top while those that spend the least end up at the bottom. So it is no surprise that Everton, having spent a measly £2 million, are near the bottom.
The lowest spend in the league by far. What is more of a surprise is Burnley spent £29 million and Leeds who spent £53 million are not mid-table. That is nobody's fault except theirs. Trying to pin the blame for their failure this season on Everton is just blame dodging.
Just like us, they need to look at what they have done wrong this season and try to correct it before the next season starts; otherwise, this will happen at the end of every season as clubs find excuses to run to the lawyers to save them from relegation and the resulting financial losses.
63 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:10:56
The League will impose a slap on the wrist at the most. If they don't they'll get counter-sued by Everton, as Everton has consulted with the League itself through "financial difficulty".
Throw in the awful optics of sour grapes and after-the-fact lawsuits (simply from a PR perspective) and the EPL will not be motivated to apply any sanction at all.
I see nothing in this, and no reason to fear a single thing. This, too, shall pass.
64 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:14:19
To an extent, the outcome of this is irrelevant as this will drag on throughout the summer, causing us problems in our transfer dealing and team restructuring and also sponsorship deals, eg, the new shirt sponsorship which is in pending subject to the league we are playing next season. We could even end up starting the next season without a shirt sponsor after the legal processes trash our name.
This is nothing more or less than Sour Grapes Gate.
65 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:31:48
66 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:37:38
We've always known this issue was lurking in the background; at the end of the day, the Premier League will do whatever is easiest for them. If their lawyers think Burnley have a solid case, they will not hesitate to throw up their hands in horror at how we misled them.
I just hope we have been as above board as we say we've been. With the imcompetents in charge in L4 that is by no means a given.
67 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:38:35
68 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:41:27
69 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:45:59
70 Posted 21/05/2022 at 13:52:30
Anyway, Patterson played no part. Van de Beek, a very little part. Dele Alli, one half of footie – good though!
Mykolenko… very well, he did play a really good part. El Ghazi – who?
71 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:13:30
We have worked very closely with the Premier League on this and they are clearly satisfied or they would have taken action themselves.
Leeds Utd and Burnley would require access to the club financial records to progress this and would have to go to court, I would think, in order to be granted that. The Premier League will hopefully respond to the effect that they have already looked closely at these figures and are satisfied that all is well.
Moshiri is an accountant and therefore not ignorant in such matters and we have Big 4 auditors who have great expertise in football-related matters. It is of course a worry but, if the club has done what it says it has done, then we should be okay.
72 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:14:19
They won't book this type of challenge by a club or clubs to their authority.
73 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:20:42
All of those strange transfer deals and hiring and firing of managers with enormous sums of money involved have apparently rung alarm bells.
It is worrying.
74 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:23:10
I cannot imagine there is a concerted effort by the Premier League to get one single club relegated, namely us. We are down the bottom thanks to being shit this season. End of.
You're not going to be challenging near the top losing 5-2 at home to Watford, never mind home losses to Brighton, Villa, Wolves and Brentford (who did the double over us). We even lost to Norwich away. Add to that a woeful away record. Our performance on the pitch is not the league's fault. We've also had some soft decisions go our way.
Note Ashley Barnes now saying refs are out to get them relegated. Every team feels they're persecuted but the decisions (good or poor) cancel themselves out.
75 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:25:20
FFP was brought in comically late after Abramovich had single-handedly altered the financial landscape of the Premier League. The benefits of which Chelsea still enjoy today and for the foreseeable future (forced sale or no forced sale).
Man City's legal firepower brought to bear to protect wealthy state ownership. Clubs getting unlikely levels of sponsorship for stadium rights and player fees. Human rights records ignored for Newcastle's sale to the richest owners around. 6 clubs bypassing FFP and Premier League rules via the Super League (unpunished).
Boro went down after failing to fulfil a fixture 20? years ago (illness), but it seems the larger transgressions by larger clubs face no comeback of note.
Hopefully, as we're a guaranteed ‘Big 16' club, we can enjoy the free pass enjoyed by others.
76 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:36:46
I believe that it would put an end to the likes of Liverpool, Manchester United, Chelsea etc. paying [in the case of Manchester City] £100,000,000, to have a player [Jack Grealish] sitting on the bench.
I know deep down that it will never happen, and I wished that the Breakaway Six had been successful in their attempt to leave the Premier League.
77 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:48:06
Haven't we been working with the FA since January (I think)?
So the FA can turn down the demand because they already have visibility and have had for months?
I'm not the expert on this, so it's just my simple head thinking.
Even if it went through, there surely would be an option to counter-challenge and appeal? And audits don't just happen overnight.
I'm straying out of my comfort zone, so I'll go back to the football.
I assume the Leeds fans will have a range of opinions, but a very good friend of mine told me he was embarrassed they have done this, let alone the timing of it.
78 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:54:41
However, Premier League needs to be objective, and ask ONE simple question:
- > Would we have stayed within the rules IF the 2 x FORCE MAJEURE events that no one could have predicted (pandemic + Russia sanctions)
The ABSOLUTELY honest answer is that nobody knows. James and Carlo, with the Goodison crowd ‘could have took us to champions league, and the money could have flooded in off the back.
Whilst its an unlikely model, its no less of a model than saying we wouldnt have.
You cannot punish people on hypothetical modelling. Just cant. Itd be utterly insane.
So, for me, the premier league MUST let it slide. But, I suspect well never be given a second chance after it. Critical we now play within the rules.
79 Posted 21/05/2022 at 14:55:47
80 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:03:02
In either case, the hurdle for the claimants/applicants to clear before the court would be very high indeed and would demand serious preliminary evidence, not mere self-serving inference and bluster, even to get off the ground.
It's not going to happen.
81 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:03:42
Of course there was an attempt to ban them from European competition, but that was dismissed on appeal.
Anyway, if they decide to ban us from the CL for a season, we'll just have to take it on the chin eh?
82 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:05:44
83 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:07:47
Are Burnley going to sue Newcastle for the distress caused to all the beheaded individuals' families et al? No way! Do the Leeds board, aka Peter Ridsdale etc, look at their history of Revie's chicanery and bribery attempts? No way!
This is Premier League football, not a kindergarten! Money men have always gone close to the line for their clubs. Is Levy on the level with all the money spent on Spurs' new stadium? How come with a measly crowd of 32,000 before the new stadium could they afford so many big transfers?
Then we look at the Hammers and the inexplicable rental deal on the former Olympic Stadium of 2012. Funny how they seem to be wanting to throw wads around on players at the moment! We haven't even started on Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea re Financial Fair Play!
Come on, Burnley and Leeds, try suing the big money teams and have the games declared null and void and reclaiming points to you? No way, because you are prepared to stand for the system of big clubs buying your best players and keeping you afloat!
84 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:10:15
Everton have stated publicly many times that they've been working with the Premier League and independent auditors to ensure they haven't broken the Profitability and Sustainability Rules, as well as checking the amount accounted for as a result of Covid. I can't imagine the Premier League caving in to a legal challenge as it would make them look incompetent.
85 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:20:55
86 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:26:06
Not paranoid, but speculative. Read it carefully.
I do not agree with your assessment of the season. The team is poor and has not performed well, I agree. But I don't know how you can possibly conclude that decisions have evened out over this season. That is just delusional.
As a club, we have been serially abused at strategic moments on a microscopic scale (within games) and on a macroscopic scale (being saddled with a European ban that was not our fault) since Bryan Hamilton's disallowed goal.
Nevertheless, this season has been a very long and horrible time for us all and maybe everybody's judgment has been impaired. And to conclude the season with this potential body blow to our hopes is frightening and unmerited. We can't be punished twice for having a poor season, finishing where we are is bad enough.
87 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:30:37
That the Premier League will warn them on the consequences if they proceed with their threat to start legal proceedings is what I think will happen. But is solely my opinion.
89 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:42:35
90 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:46:05
I don't think it matters about gaining more points and could it be the reality that the 'Sly Six' have used the two relegation-threatened clubs to do their dirty work for them?
It won't end up with Everton being relegated this season but it might mean we face a points deduction next season, if of course we truly are in breach of the rules.
91 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:51:54
More sour grapes from previous or future Championship teams.
92 Posted 21/05/2022 at 15:59:31
I agree with those who assert it is the Premier League who will be feeling the greater pressure from this action. As far as we are concerned, we can now be sure the Premier League authorities will be monitoring our every move in the transfer market like hawks.
Given the way we splurged money around in the pre-Covid era, that may be helpful. I doubt we'll be paying many transfer fees but the message to selling clubs is clear; our resources are finite.
93 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:11:55
Okay, we won't mess with our data storage if you don't mess with yours, so no burning your rolls of parchment.
The drama dial has really been turned up this week for sure. God knows what tomorrow will bring.
John @ 89 - I waited for it and you didn't let me down. :)
94 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:20:02
If the courts were to find against Everton (and the Premier League?), what penalties can be incurred, would they have to be within the Premier League's regulations, and can they be made retrospective? Or would it be the Premier League's right and obligation to impose a penalty?
Have these two clubs actually threatened legal action or merely asked for an internal and independent investigation? And, if the Premier League carry it out and find no fault, would that mean that these clubs having agreed to such action, find it works against them in court?
Legal actions can be so messy, as Man City have demonstrated. Does anybody know the letter of the regulations regarding P&S rules?
95 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:22:46
96 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:36:21
97 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:39:08
There is no automatic points deduction.
98 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:45:19
99 Posted 21/05/2022 at 16:59:41
I'm not sure where he's got his figures re the academy, women's football, stadium and EitC (if that's deductible). Surely the work around the current and future employment along with the new housing at Goodison is deductible too.
100 Posted 21/05/2022 at 17:05:18
101 Posted 21/05/2022 at 17:41:23
I would remind you that Leeds have won the Title more recently than us, and were in a Champions League semi-final at the start of the 2000s. They've also been in a European Cup Final, which they only lost because of an incompetent/cheating ref.
102 Posted 21/05/2022 at 18:15:07
The option is way too expensive for either of those clubs to be considering. It's likely more signaling to their fan bases that the reason they failed was that there were others that were cheating.
103 Posted 21/05/2022 at 18:33:13
Hopefully someone understands if the details in here have any weight. To be honest, Everton are the outlier but, as long as it's all agreed with the Premier League, then they should get fined and not us... any thoughts?
104 Posted 21/05/2022 at 18:36:59
However, I don't see any justification for any club to see another club's books and have them investigated independently.
The Premier League is the governing body and, from all accounts, has been in agreement with Everton and its external auditors.
Nothing to see, move on.
105 Posted 21/05/2022 at 19:11:48
As for the courts, I reckon we can afford better lawyers than them, enough to keep any legal action going long enough for Burnley at least to go bust.
106 Posted 21/05/2022 at 19:35:16
Well whatever else, that has the ring of truth to it...
107 Posted 21/05/2022 at 19:41:43
108 Posted 21/05/2022 at 20:29:05
I assume, if Everton are sold next season, the price will be low.
109 Posted 21/05/2022 at 22:08:06
111 Posted 21/05/2022 at 22:19:19
112 Posted 21/05/2022 at 22:53:33
And not a bad weekly wage of £1million. Is any player really worth that much?
113 Posted 21/05/2022 at 23:31:11
114 Posted 22/05/2022 at 05:25:08
Everton has been mismanaged for years and a cash injection showed how incompetent the management of the club actually were, or rather how much their self-interest outweighed the club's interests.
Many have called for the sacking of the Board, but I have come to realise that Kenwright & Co were kept for a reason: to deal with the football authorities, because of the fear of the owner that, at some stage, how they ran the club and the source of their finances, would come under scrutiny.
As far as sanctions and financial rules are concerned, they have been right. Furthermore, Kenwright & Co have been good at managing the authorities and are way ahead of one-letter Leeds and Burnley and the supporting baying media.
Everton's losses with a deduction for Covid are acceptable to the Premier League and Everton, because the Premier League does not want to exercise their financial rules and Everton's investors still are getting value for their money. The value that Moshiri & Co put on their money is not the value we place on it. A percentage loss is factored in, the moreso with their association with an invading army on the move.
Actually, against this background, the completion of the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock will be financed and come in on budget. Kenwright & Co will maintain their position. Lampard and the fans will be trying to improve things on the football side. The scare of relegation will make funds available for Frank and hopefully any cutbacks will fall on the internal management of Everton.
After today, the letter will disappear with the transfer media cycle as the survivor between Leeds and Burnley loses interest. Frank and the fans have already saved Everton in more ways than they will ever know on Thursday. The celebration continues today unabated. Everton is still a Big Club… bigger than Leeds or Burnley anyway, which counts.
115 Posted 22/05/2022 at 10:06:24
I‘d second that! Looks one hell of a player.
116 Posted 22/05/2022 at 10:13:00
117 Posted 22/05/2022 at 10:44:13
118 Posted 22/05/2022 at 10:48:13
The bigger concern for me is the inevitable enquiry into the pitch invasions on Thursday night and I very much fear that we will see GP closed for 1 or more home games at the start of next season or at the very least the Lower Gladwys being shut down for a period.
The invasion at the end may be excusable, but the muppet who filmed himself goading Patrick Vieira will be frowned upon and the invasion following the third goal is not.
We are fast becoming a huge thorn in the PL's side and they will take this opportunity to take us down a peg or two. We already have two outstanding hearings (Frank, Salah comments and Richy, flare throwing) and are fast losing any credibility we had.
119 Posted 22/05/2022 at 11:23:56
But I did smile at the reaction from Spain:
Spain's La Liga reacted angrily to the news, calling the deal "scandalous" and announcing it plans to file a complaint to Uefa as well as French and EU authorities. "This type of agreement threatens the economic sustainability of European football," read a La Liga statement, adding that it put "hundreds of thousands of jobs and sporting integrity at risk in the medium term, not only from European competitions, but also from our domestic leagues".
"This type of agreement threatens the economic sustainability of European football," read a La Liga statement, adding that it put "hundreds of thousands of jobs and sporting integrity at risk in the medium term, not only from European competitions, but also from our domestic leagues".
Oh the irony and hypocrisy.
120 Posted 22/05/2022 at 13:04:40
I just hope it doesn't come to a points deduction, now or even next season. Equally a transfer embargo ot large fine wouldn't be too helpful either. I just hope we've got a great legal defence to the charges.
121 Posted 22/05/2022 at 13:31:40
We claimed what we claimed and the Premier League okayed it. If they thought we were claiming too much, they had the option to knock it back and make us reduce the claim but they didn't so here we are. They can hardly change the rules now.
Maybe the other clubs, including Burnley and Leeds should have claimed more. If they could have and didn't that is their, and their accountants fault, not ours.
As I have said in other posts this is nothing but sour grapes and grabbing at straws.
122 Posted 22/05/2022 at 14:02:58
FFP has to have some flexibility otherwise it is just a mechanism for preventing clubs from taking reasonable risks as well as the too chancy ones it is supposedly designed to prevent.
Not all clubs will be in the same position at any one time, and if a club becomes over-exposed because of events that werent reasonably predictable then that has to be considered. Because of our flops we needed to recoup a lot of money during the last couple of years and the movement of players has been curtailed to some extent by the pandemic. If the authorities have already ruled on it then they cant change that stance just because someone has now complained.
123 Posted 22/05/2022 at 21:46:59
Ive been wracking my brain trying to figure out how they managed to do that seeing as our matchday revenue is not that high. I can only imagine that theyre dressing up some of the losses as related to the stadium build and claiming that the lockdowns impacted the development in a way that cost the club money.
It would be a flimsy argument but the Premier League appears to have accepted it. And the profitability and sustainability rules are their creation, they “reserve the right” to apply discretion in extreme circumstances like the pandemic, just as Burnley and Leeds “reserve the right” to take legal action against us.
Nevertheless, I cant see much coming of this. Now that Leeds are safe I cant imagine them having much appetite for an expensive lawsuit that wont yield much benefit to them anyway unless theyre targeting getting Everton in the relegation zone before kick-off next season as part of their own survival bid.
As for Burnley, can they really afford to go down a legal minefield?
It seems to me that unless they can prove that Everton cooked the books, their only recourse is against the league, not Everton. After all, everyone broke the rules during the lockdowns but the league relaxed the rules for that very reason.
It would be hard to prove favouritism towards Everton in a courtroom, especially if you consider how were treated by referees and VAR.
They could try to sue Everton for damages but theyd surely have to demonstrate a causal link between Evertons spending and their relegation struggles. Good luck with that.
124 Posted 22/05/2022 at 22:03:27
125 Posted 22/05/2022 at 22:09:31
Time to at least act big time with a proper fit-for-purpose CEO with worldwide contacts.
127 Posted 22/05/2022 at 22:45:11
Hypocrisy of course, but maybe the fact they've openly shouted this out could indicate that the lunacy may soon peak. Mbappe will "Earn" 200 million total over the next two years. The fifty million salary part has been quoted as "Net" which might indicate, after tax.
Either way, that is outrageous - all but two million per week. And then more no doubt in bonuses, then even more with off-field earnings. After all this, he could very well move later to... I dunno, Real Madrid maybe.
I don't easily resent many in their work, and I don't like tinkering interjections and restrictions in that area - but... this is getting crazy. It's coming out of the arse pockets of fans, however it's painted. It also adds to the growing exclusion of all those in football that can never hope to compete.
128 Posted 22/05/2022 at 22:47:46
129 Posted 23/05/2022 at 00:28:11
As I recall Everton were the only ones to speak up, the rest did nothing, the big so called six got off Scot free, with even the measly fine being scrapped.
Oh yes easy to come at Everton, no bollocks whatsoever when it comes to taking the big boys on though, every last one of them did nothing.
Suprise suprise, the so called big six, finished the season, with every single one of them in the top six.
All because no one had the guts, to dock them points.
The same will happen next season, and the season after, because they have done everything they can, to protect these clubs, to stop other teams competing with ffp, to hand them an even bigger advantage, by allowing 5 subs, from next season, even var, these teams will pull further away, extra revenue and income for European games, tv and prize money, how can the rest compete with that.
Leicester City did it once, then got swallowed up the following seasons, how the hell City and psg are getting away with it is baffling.
I was hoping against hope the breakaway super league would have gone ahead, now the Premier league are shitting themselves and giving those clubs absolutely everything, the game we all love has been taken from us, from the rich fat cats.
130 Posted 23/05/2022 at 01:33:11
Everton also led the charge against the Newcastle takeover. Some papers say “other teams encouraged Burnley and Leeds action.” Could it be payback?
131 Posted 23/05/2022 at 01:38:52
132 Posted 23/05/2022 at 09:17:22
133 Posted 23/05/2022 at 09:33:56
134 Posted 23/05/2022 at 16:56:09
135 Posted 23/05/2022 at 17:08:18
Ive been wracking my brain trying to figure out how they managed to do that "
It's all to do with out Other Operating Costs.
136 Posted 23/05/2022 at 18:50:22
Besides, where's the precedent? Can we compare our losses with the last pandemic that decimated the country? No we can't.
137 Posted 23/05/2022 at 20:05:05
Very happy to put out there that our losses are big than other clubs, but not once mentioned out losses will have included some of the Bramley Moore Dock Stadium build when the club couldn't capitalise the sum.
Poor journalism that, just sensationalising a narrative.
138 Posted 23/05/2022 at 21:28:47
We offloaded some of the wage bill in January, and the money we paid out for Mykolenko and Patterson, plus the loanees coming in, was offset with the Digne transfer, our loan fee for Gbamin and Moise Kean and possibly Nkounkou, along with others we loaned out.
This will be the third rolling year, so, if I have got this right, then we then start again after June – whether it be FFP or the new thing they were looking to bring in. So that gives us another 3 years, if it is FFP, to offload those contracts ending, plus additional allowance in the stadium build.
By that time, we could be playing in a larger stadium, with more commercial revenue, sponsorship for the new stadium – that is before we even might have bids for some of our players.
If the new spends do mean whatever it is replaces FFP, then again that will not impact FFP that has already been actioned, everyone will start with a clean slate, from the season it comes in.
So, unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure this is the third and final rolling FFP. If everything is ship-shape, then we should be fine, going forward from next season, in being able to buy players.
140 Posted 24/05/2022 at 10:25:05
141 Posted 24/05/2022 at 12:32:17
They didn't get relegated because we spent too much money (which didn't help our cause). They got relegated because they lost too many games of football so finished in an according position in the league table.
142 Posted 24/05/2022 at 16:34:14
They might as well threaten Man City who are actually being investigated by the Premier League. Okay, it's now 3 years into the investigation but I'm sure that's due to the complexity rather than hoping everyone forgets about it!
143 Posted 24/05/2022 at 16:58:22
And what was the game in Burnleytown? Assume a load of debt and then pretend it can't be serviced because everything is spent to keep up?
Seems like Burnley was up long enough to have paid down more of that debt which happens to be motivating their tantrum.
144 Posted 25/05/2022 at 02:29:29
Being in New Zealand and not having proper access to football matters other than the internet, the latest news has me very concerned. It seems we received the most red cards this season and had none given in our favour.
With all the bad press we have had and all the times the FA have picked fault with Everton. I can no longer believe there is no conspiracy against us… But WHY? Can anyone please calm me down?
145 Posted 25/05/2022 at 05:14:03
I am old and helpless, but why aren't the club's lawyers out there, kicking asses and fighting the bullies? Once confronted, they will back down.
You guys in America, love your posts – very sensible; and Christine and Danny, you both know I admire you – have you any thoughts on the matter?
I have a dicky heart. I am stressed out over this, and despite medication my blood pressure has risen up to 180+.
I'm worried that I won't be following the lads next season which starts in about 10 weeks – in fact, my wife is concerned I won't be here for our Diamond Wedding in just 3 weeks!
So come on, Everton, "Kia Kaha"
146 Posted 25/05/2022 at 07:21:47
Right now, we keep our powder dry and don't respond. Without wanting to sound like I have victim mentality, we've never been favourites of the media for some reason. We're just not fashionable – we're Everton.
Most importantly, Bernie keep well. We've got next season and European qualification to look forward to and you'll be there following us.
147 Posted 25/05/2022 at 07:49:36
148 Posted 25/05/2022 at 10:57:28
As far as who is responsible for governance of the club, it is clearly the Chairman, Chief Executive and other Board members at the time – in that order. I think Moshiri would escape censure although any official investigation might seek to know whence his money came?
149 Posted 25/05/2022 at 12:01:23
150 Posted 25/05/2022 at 12:07:45
Last week Watford appointed the Forest Green manager after holding talks with him without consent from his employers. The same club lodged a complaint when we made a legit approach and we paid them compo.
The club need to grow some balls and start telling these people to 'do one'.
151 Posted 25/05/2022 at 12:50:27
At the risk of spiking Bernie's blood pressure, the more I think of it, the stronger the parallels are, and the extremely serious potential consequences if the Premier League are unable to discourage them.
Yes, Everton say they have worked with the Premier League at every stage to make sure they stay within the rules. But what shocked me about the Tevez case was that a judgement and fine were levied on West Ham by the Premier League and yet Sheffield Utd still took legal action and – here's the worst part – were able to get an incredible out-of-court settlement of up to £26M (numbers vary), which West Ham paid out to Sheffield Utd over the subsequent years.
What I find really worrying is that the Premier League did nothing to prevent this litigation, even though they had done their due diligence and issued a substantial fine of £5.5M to West Ham for breaching third-party ownership rules – but they were crucially spared a points deduction.
That seems equivalent in our case to them having worked with EFC to assure that the categorization of these enormous losses was deemed to be within the Profit and Sustainability Rules.
But Sheffield Utd weren't satisfied and they filed "arbitration proceedings" against the Premier League in a bid to overturn the decision not to deduct points from West Ham; however, an arbitration panel dismissed their claim.
Sheffield Utd then explored the possibility of an appeal to the High Court but the attempt to gain leave was refused, so they announced their intention to sue West Ham for the cost of relegation from the Premier League.
I can't find any reference to the Premier League having any powers to stop them from pursuing this legal action – that's what worries me the most.
However, an independent arbitration hearing ruled in favour of Sheffield United in their compensation claim from West Ham, 6 months later, they reached an out-of-court settlement to end their dispute, West Ham coughing up to the tune of £26M – this is 13 years ago.
So there was talk of the Premier League inviting Burnley and Leeds Utd in for a chat on Monday but the truth is that the Premier League cannot stop the clubs from pursuing this case if that's what they decide to do.
ps: My understanding of Financial Fair Play (FFP) is that it's a Uefa construct which only comes into effect for us if we qualify for European competition. It has little bearing on this discussion.
152 Posted 25/05/2022 at 13:21:11
153 Posted 26/05/2022 at 06:21:31
1. Why precisely are Burnley demanding 200m pounds from Everton and the Premier League?
2. Can the Premier League wriggle out of their responsibilities and leave Everton to face any penalty on their own?
3. Do Everton have Freehold of Goodison Park?
4. If sold, who receives the proceeds of sale – The Club or just the Owner of the Club?
5. And finally, could any such proceeds be used to help clear our debts?
154 Posted 26/05/2022 at 08:10:52
155 Posted 26/05/2022 at 08:35:40
Wasn't the West Ham - Sheffield Utd case much more obvious than ours?
West Ham hid/didn't reveal the 3rd party ownership (our old pal Kia Joorabchian was involved) until they were investigated by the league whereas we've apparently been working side by side with them for 2 years. If this is correct, it will make it hard for the league to retrospectively punish us and instead makes them central to any claim from Burnley.
From a footballing side, Tevez had a clear impact on their staying up including scoring the winner on the last day. Unfortunately none of our signings have displayed the same transformational skills.
156 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:09:09
Some deep probing questions there... I'll do my best to answer them:
1. I think Burnley believe the financial rules were broken and this enabled Everton to avoid relegation, whereas Burnley followed the rules, but they were relegated anyway. Burnley have put a figure of £200M on the cost of relegation and are claiming that from Everton (not from the Premier League).
2. Yes, the Premier League actually provides for clubs to resolve their disputes through the English courts. But this would occur only after arbitration (where the two sides meet in a quasi-judicial setting to argue out the merits of the case, typically before a small panel of artibtrators).
In this case, Burnley are actually asking the Premier League to conduct an independent investigation into Everton's financial affairs and to decide on the merits of just how much of their excess losses (£370.8M, less the £105M limit over 3 years) are allowable.
I don't believe the Premier League will agree to an investigation... unless a motion is brought by at least 14 of the remaining clubs in a stakeholder vote — I'm guessing here as there has been no mention of this scenario.
That would leave Burnley to pursue the matter through the courts. Once the lawsuit is filed, it would set the structure for lots of argument and analysis, discovery of documents, spreadsheets, communications etc, endless meetings, perhaps even depositions of key witnesses (do they do that in the UK legal system?) before the case ever actually got to court.
All of this would cost millions, payable to the teams of lawyers and experts involved – yes, probably around the current value of Goodison Park! But in all likelihood, the case would never actually go to court: it would be settled between the parties out-of-court for some (probably undisclosed) sum quite a bit less than the £200M claimed.
3. Yes, I believe so.
4. The club.
5. Yes. Money is money. (Okay, there's huge attention on money laundering in any sizeable transaction these days… but I can't see how the proceeds of selling Goodison Park wouldn't go straight onto the bottom line. )
Just going back to §1: there's a big question mark of causation or linkage here — Burnley would have to prove that Everton's alleged financial shenanigans actually helped them avoid relegation.
Whereas it could be argued that Everton were in that plight precisely because of their financial incompetence and profligacy. Not sure Bill Kenwright would allow Everton's lawyers to volunteer that as a defence, though.
157 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:25:39
I paralleled this with the Premier League having fined West Ham for breaking the third-party ownership rules. Due process was done in both cases with the full involvement of the Premier League.
To my simple mind, the Premier League should have told Sheffield Utd to go take a hike. In a way, they did because their initial arbitration rejected the case.
But here's the key parallel that I don't think has been grasped: Sheffield Utd carried on through an independent review, which found in their favour, and then continued to go after West Ham to the point of securing a massive out-of-court settlement – while the Premier League stood aside and did nothing to stop them.
And that's my Big Bernie nightmare. If Burnley want to pursue this case against Everton, I don't see anyone stopping them — certainly not the Premier League.
158 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:30:51
159 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:35:24
As far as we are aware the Premier League are satisfied that Everton's actions are within the wriggle room afforded to clubs in respect of the impact of Covid on a club's financial losses.
It's going to be a tough ask for Burnley to show that Everton broke the rules when the Premier League (surely an "expert witness") appear to be saying we didn't.
160 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:37:34
161 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:55:16
I just have doubts about the Premier League taking any decisive action if Burnley are really set on pursuing this. And Burnley must be pretty convinced they can get something from this farce...
"Yes, Everton did talk to the Premier League about certain financial elements. We gave them our view of the guidelines and told them to submit their audited accounts [to Companies House], as required before the end of March 2022. However, at no stage have we, our accountants or financial specialists, examined or reviewed Everton's Accounts and the Premier League can take no responsibility whatsoever for condoning or sanctioning the financial activities of a member club."
Okay, I made that last bit up. Jerome would have liked it but he's buggered off on his hols.
162 Posted 26/05/2022 at 09:58:00
But that argument doesn't hold water for me as we are about the same size club as Aston Villa and they claimed half of what we did in Covid related losses.
Quite ironic that we have an owner who is an accountant who didn't understand the financial rules of FFP. Seeing the rules are very clear, you wonder why they had to call in the Premier League to oversee what they were doing. Maybe doing this has got the Premier League on side but, whichever you look at it, Everton broke the rules.
I can't understand why Burnley want a cash settlement – surely they should be pushing for Everton to have a points deduction, not a fine. Obviously that won't help Burnley as the points deduction wouldn't take place till the start of next season.
I genuinely wonder, if the boot was on the other foot, and let's say we were in Burnley's position and Man Utd were in our position, I could well imagine a post on here with the headline 'The Premier League is Corrupt!'
It is... but we benefit from this corruption this time.
163 Posted 26/05/2022 at 10:10:32
Would that have any bearing here? Yes, we spent too much money but we bought a team of half-arsed footballing morons who just about scraped home – it was hardly an advantage over Burnley!
I'll see you in court.
164 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:10:17
"Using the logic of 'what's good for the goose', you should be aware that should Everton FC come under any scrutiny we feel is above and beyond from Burnley, or any other club, we will demand our lawyers and accountants are given the opportunity to go through the books and records of every other PL league club."
Imo, before anyone decides to do anything, the PL need to be thinking - "shit, we don't don't want Everton opening cans of worms all over the show."
If Everton have been 'working with' the PL (so following THEIR instuctions) and Burnley feel they're owed £200m, maybe the PL rather than Everton should pay it.
(nb: re finance and legality, I have no idea what I'm talking about and can only add brain-droppings)
165 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:17:33
Many who are not Everton supporters will read what's on this site.
166 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:18:32
Yes, of course that was the case. I'm just pointing out, to those who still support Billy Boy, that we could have been following Everton in Kirkby had we gone along with his plan to move to Kirkby, a move based on some of his falsehoods – a bit like that fella in Parliament, whatshisname!!
167 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:19:13
You may have made the last bit up but that could be the hill upon which we perish. If Everton are overstating the extent to which the Premier League were involved in keeping us right regarding the extent of our Covid mitigations...then we really could be in bother.
Nice Jerome reference btw!
168 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:34:01
Two years later, cut to a packed Alabama (?) courtroom...
A fan spins slowly above.
Sweating men dab their foreheads with hankies while women fan themselves.
Stern looking Judge: "Mister Darrow, you may proceed…"
Clarence Darrow: - "Ladies n' gentlemen of the jury, this is not as simple a case as it may seem. Recently, I was looking at a website – I believe is called (looks at notes) 'Toffee...Web" and I believe..."
169 Posted 26/05/2022 at 11:57:35
The likelihood that the Premier League will accept the outcome of a season unpicked in the courts to benefit a club already relegated is zero.
170 Posted 26/05/2022 at 12:00:38
1) I cant see how ANYONE can possibly state we wouldnt have been in significantly stronger position had Covid and Russia not hit……surely at least the first would be force majeure on its own.
2) Nobody can say what position we would have been in had we not had this “supposed advantage” they claim. Based on historic data, wed have finished higher. Only way to tell would be to “run again”, and therefore any retrospective punishment would have zero sporting justification.
I believe the absolute worst case scenario is points deduction next year and transfer ban, but with a force majeure legal challenge that would surely get suspended for the YEARS it would take to prove covid didnt cause it. The loss of James and Carlo could alone be argued as £100ms in lost marketing opportunities.
Its sad that Burnley are clutching at these straws, whilst ignoring the tens of millions more spent each year by the sky 6 on wages alone. Sad little fuckers, hope they go down next year too.
For now though, Im going to try and ignore all gossip until it becomes anything other than that.
171 Posted 26/05/2022 at 12:47:31
For all of those people who spout nonsense like, "Yanks will ruin our game" and the like, this is your best case to cite.
American owners come in and buy Burnley. They don't get what they want (survival) so they try to sue their way out of it to protect their investment.
Ugly Americans, says this American.
ALK Capital and Alan Pace are to blame for this ridiculous, shit-slinging effort, and I feel bad for all the Burnley supporters. It was a great little Club. It's now a Wall Street Snake's plaything ran into the ground.
For every Fenway Sports Group, you get an ALK Capital I guess?
172 Posted 26/05/2022 at 13:05:11
You can see why ALK Capital desperately tried to pursue this, but is just shows they understand nothing about football if they think the PL will entertain this challenge to their authority.
Unpicking a club's relegation in the courts after they have gone down on the pitch? Dream on.
173 Posted 26/05/2022 at 13:45:21
174 Posted 26/05/2022 at 13:51:59
(a) we broke the rules (difficult if the Premier League said we didn't); and
(b) this breach would have led to a points deduction at season end (and not for the following season).
How do they show that? The Premier League could have decided to fine us. It's within their discretion surely.
I think it's just too difficult for them.
175 Posted 26/05/2022 at 14:27:04
I am comforted though by the fact the West Ham case was a much worse breach. I seem to remember Tevez came in and singlehandedly kept them up, scoring winning goals every week.
With us, even if we have breached, so we say spent £70M more than we should, it is way less clear that our signing some of the bums we bought automatically led to a higher points tally, not when some squads are worth over a billion pounds.
Moshiri ain't gonna settle except for peanuts. And whilst he may be a useless owner, he was built for shit like this. He'll love it.
176 Posted 26/05/2022 at 15:01:36
177 Posted 26/05/2022 at 15:19:59
A little harsh but you're forgiven as I enjoyed your letters..
178 Posted 26/05/2022 at 16:35:25
Some good points (and excellent sarcasm, Eugene!) raised above. I'll pick out a few.
Brian (@162): Seeing the rules are very clear, you wonder why they had to call in the Premier League to oversee what they were doing.
I'm not sure they are all that clear, Brian, especially when it comes to valuing losses attributed to Covid. In my opinion, the club was remarkably savvy to talk to the Premier League and they may have been more involved in categorizing allowable losses than I have implied. But there are judgement calls required at a number of points: Related Party Transactions and their deemed Fair Market Value, as one example.
"Whichever way you look at it, Everton broke the rules." Since that's the essence of the legal case being brought, I think you might be jumping the gun somewhat. The case needs to be proven by Burnley, beyond reasonable doubt (or is it "on the balance of probability"?)
Steve (@169): "The accounts have been audited, submitted and accepted by the Premier League."
As far as I can see, the Accounts are submitted to the Premier League and they are reviewed for compliance with a number of Rules, as set out in the Premier League Handbook. The remedies for breaching the PSR calculations for allowable losses include: agreeing and adhering to a budget; providing further information; and having new player registrations rejected.
Kevin (@175) – According to the Premier League Handbook, a points deduction can be made in the case of club insolvency (9 points) or as a decision by a Commission appointed under the Premier League's Dispute Resolution rules (Section W). Unless I'm missing something, there is no way in which a breach of the PSR calculation would result directly in a points deduction.
I'd love to believe we have nothing to worry about, and that I have overstated the risks; perhaps we can take solace in Jamie's assertion that Burnley would have to be stupid and/or American to think they could get anywhere with this.
179 Posted 26/05/2022 at 16:42:59
Oh, hang on a moment...
180 Posted 26/05/2022 at 17:07:34
Some deep and decent analysis by many as you say.
Not my area but I'd agree with you on the thought that maybe Everton were savvy and whether breaking profit and loss (FFP doesn't apply here to us I believe??), shouldn't warrant a points deduction? Good lord they struggle to give out a retrospective red card.
I'll stay out and keep reading. I just saw the dog comment.
181 Posted 26/05/2022 at 17:31:57
I agree that the whole argument is supposition and I hope with every bone in my body that our case is water tight, as the thought of fighting so hard to stay up be taken away by a court would be unbearable.
I am sure the club seem confident they have followed the rules with oversight from the Premier league. I just wonder how FFP will impact the club over the next 12 to 18 months. Hopefully Frank will have a little bit of wriggle room to bring in some of his targets.
182 Posted 26/05/2022 at 17:45:40
Actually how much financial wriggle room Frank will have in the short term is a much bigger concern that the prospect of legal action by Burnley/Leeds.
I'd be much less optmistic on that score.
183 Posted 26/05/2022 at 17:51:54
184 Posted 26/05/2022 at 17:59:40
185 Posted 26/05/2022 at 18:13:50
If you want ammunition to use against your better half... at least do the research yourself. 😊
186 Posted 26/05/2022 at 18:34:21
As I understand it (and I am no expert) you are allowed £105M in losses over the previous 3 years. Everton's losses were over £380M but they were allowed to adjust for Covid (£170M), stadium development costs assumed around £38M and the women's team and EitC costs to get them below the 105M.
The £170M is 3 times the average that other clubs claimed (around £50M) and includes some creative accounting in claiming for player sale value drops due to Covid.
Other clubs but especially Burnley and Leeds have seized on the £170M adjustment as being suspicious.
Personally speaking, if Deloitte have audited the accounts and the Premier League have been in agreement, I can't see what the hell Burnley or Leeds can do about it.
187 Posted 26/05/2022 at 18:47:41
188 Posted 26/05/2022 at 21:15:17
I am embarrassed and very sorry for causing all this letter-writing – had no intention to 'stir it'. I was just puzzled. Again Michael, my apologies – I'll pull my head in and keep quiet.
189 Posted 26/05/2022 at 21:27:58
The purpose of an internet site is for contributors to "stir it" and cause a lot of "letter writing" (seriously? 😊)
Absolutely do not pull your head in or keep quiet... difficult as it may seem on ToffeeWeb... you're amongst friends.
190 Posted 26/05/2022 at 21:57:13
191 Posted 26/05/2022 at 22:05:42
192 Posted 26/05/2022 at 22:11:57
The latest accounts were for Season 2020-21.
The accounts for the season just ended (2021-22) won't be cooked... er, sorry, 'prepared' until the end of the year.
193 Posted 26/05/2022 at 22:59:35
So, arguably, that stretches the link to this season's Premier League performances even further from the incurring of previous financial losses. Whatever the significance of that, if any, I've no idea.
194 Posted 27/05/2022 at 07:51:51
If their claim was valid. I think Everton in the mid-1980s had a better chance of sueing Liverpool FC and Urga, following the Red supporters criminal and tragic actions causing English clubs to be banned from Europe for 5 years.
Everton, a very successful team over that period, missed out on at least 2 years of Europen football through no fault of their own. So I say to Burnley - "Stop moaning - Tuff Bikkies - You Lost - Now get a Life" (Gosh, I can't believe this is mild old me saying this!!!)
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