The club's proposed new stadium may have received unanimous backing from the Council today but the project faces an uncertain review from the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, Robert Jenrick, to whose desk the application process now moves.
Under normal circumstances, a decision from the Government would be expected to be returned within 21 days but there is a chance that concerns about the club's plans from heritage groups like of Historic England and UNESCO could result in the scheme being "called in" for more detailed scrutiny which could delay a final decision by months.
At the heart of the opposition to constructing a football ground on what has been designated by the latter organisation as a World Heritage Site are fears that the integrity of the historic dock walls will be compromised and Bramley-Moore Dock itself will need to be filled in to provide the footprint for the stadium.
Everton have worked hard to address these concerns and incorporated changes that came out of consuiltation with the Liverpool Planning Authority and Historic England into a revised planning application last autumn.
Any lingering objections drew responses from Liverpool Councillor Joe Hanson and Frank McKenna, chief executive of business lobby group, Downtown In Business. Speaking during today's special Council meeting, Hanson, an admitted Liverpool fan, praised Everton for their vision, gave the project impassioned support and questioned the objections from organisations who have voiced concerns over developing the docks site.
"Everton have a reputation for employing and providing good quality employment," he said. "What it will do to the Ten Streets ... will have a massive impact on people and companies who want to come into and invest in what is going to be in some respects a boom time for north Liverpool.
"It's vitally important for our kids to get good, quality work - and that's what Everton will provide and the surrounding area will provide.
"I find it a little bit insulting that you have Historic England who don't live in Liverpool, I don't even know where they live, but they can come in and pontificate and ask for a call-in that could place that project in jeopardy and delay what Everton are trying to do.
"What they're trying to do is create employment, create an iconic stadium on the waterfront - that will hopefully not just be used for football, but be used for a diverse number of businesses and also used by the wider community, and become probably one of the most sought-after visitor attractions hopefully within Liverpool."
McKenna, meanwhile, suggested that Liverpool waterfront's World Heritage Site status has become more of a negative than a positive and poses an obstacle to further progress and modernisation in the City. While the rest of Liverpool's famous Mersey waterfront has undergone regneration that has transformed the area, the north docks stand as the last tract that still lies semi-derelict.
The Peel Group have a £5bn regeneration plan of which Everton's Bramley-Moore Dock Stadium would be just the first piece and McKenna argues that any intransigence from UNESCO would act as an impediment to that progress.
“This is so much more than a football ground," he said. "It is regeneration for an area that badly needs it. It means jobs and investment for north Liverpool which is still one of the most deprived parts of the North West.
“I think Ultimately it will also give us the opportunity of attracting many more investors to the Liverpool Waters Site. Fantastic news for Everton and for the city.
“Now we need to seriously consider what happens with World Heritage Status. My view for a long time is that it has been a barrier to development and we have seen UNESCO really be as intransigent as ever over the stadium despite the club's efforts to protect the heritage on that site.
“And is it now becoming something that is a red flag to potential investors in the future. I think the sensible thing for the city council would be to say to UNESCO ‘thanks for that badge but no thanks' hand it back and let's get on with, not just the stadium, but the many other developments that can shape the future of the city of Liverpool and the wider city region.”
UNESCO's current position on Everton's plans since the modifications to the planning application were made is not known as, due to the pandemic, no World Heritage Committee was held in 2020. However, ToffeeWeb understands that ICOMOS-UK, the domestic National Committee of ICOMOS, the international body that operates as the official adviser to UNESCO on cultural World Heritage Sites, has moved to clarify a statement attributed to them in a Liverpool City Council report which asserted that the stadium development "would have a completely unacceptable major adverse impact on the authenticity, integrity and outstanding universal value".
They insist that ICOMOS-UK specifically have made no comment on the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium project and that while ICOMOS did comment on the proposal in this report in 2019, the organisation has not formally objected to the club's plans.
This report has been updated to reflect a clarification from ICOMOS-UK who insist that UNESCO has not commented recently on the Bramley-Moore Dock planning application and has not thus far lodged any formal objections. The reference to English Heritage has also been corrected to Historic England.
Reader Comments (112)
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1 Posted 23/02/2021 at 21:28:41
Hmmm, wonder what that means.
2 Posted 23/02/2021 at 21:35:45
Putting it another way - tell Unesco et al to go and do one. We don't need any more 'World Heritage' dumping sites, thanks – this City is going places.
3 Posted 23/02/2021 at 21:57:22
The fact that nobody locally shares their view and that, on the contrary, there is overwhelming support for the application will surely persuade the Secretary of State to sign off the application as a matter of routine. To do otherwise would run counter to the present Government's stated desire to remove planning barriers.
4 Posted 23/02/2021 at 22:06:54
If the cost of retaining our World Heritage Site status is miles of walled off decaying docks, then Unesco should be told to do one.
5 Posted 23/02/2021 at 22:23:54
Should said mandarin decide to do so, can the city / club not just go ahead and do it anyway? And cobblers to the heritage industry?
6 Posted 23/02/2021 at 22:32:01
I was struck by the fact not all historic buildings had been bulldozed instead renovated to keep the flavour of the city's heritage. I don't see why something similar could not be achieved with the new stadium.
7 Posted 23/02/2021 at 22:36:08
8 Posted 23/02/2021 at 23:19:20
Bramley-Moore Dock is a total shithole, falling to pieces... the dock has the odd tug tying up there. If it were a working area or a dock contributing to the City, I could understand. Totally out of order.
9 Posted 24/02/2021 at 00:24:24
On second thoughts, we knew they were stupid, why bother even worrying about them now? It's a done deal.
10 Posted 24/02/2021 at 01:10:58
Like most Everton fans, I would like the Port of Liverpool to have remained the biggest most important port in Europe employing thousands of local workers. Unfortunately successive governments mainly "Tory" enhanced its decline and stigmatised the former workforce.
Like with the Port of Bristol, unfortunately, the biggest legacy is one with slavery and merchant greed. Locally people's fond reminiscence of the docks is of those who worked there rather than their cruel master or employer's icons.
Therefore the greatest legacy for those former workers on the docks would be a stadium built for one of the founder members of the Football League.
The heritage of past mercantile greed needs to be consigned to history by hopefully what will be a more diverse and inclusive endeavour.
11 Posted 24/02/2021 at 03:20:34
12 Posted 24/02/2021 at 06:29:44
Don't get me wrong: I am all for History and it's preservation for generations to come, and to learn from, but what exactly is the 'history of Bramley-Moore Dock?' Like someone succinctly said, this was largely built by the use of slaves around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. Nothing to be proud of there, in a City that has an Anti-Slavery Museum section in it's Maritime Museum.
I also mentioned when all this started about my own experiences of Bramley-Moore Dock, some 30 years ago (wow where has that gone?) or so. A good friend of mine who sadly passed some time ago, bought a Morecambe Bay Shrimping Boat, in need of repair. These boats had a unique feature which may or may have not been realised when they were first designed.
Originally these boats were purely sail-powered only, but later adapted to incorporate a diesel engine for manoeuvrability in and out of harbour or for when the wind had dropped considerably. They had originally their own vast iron stoves, where the catch could be prepared, cleaned and cooked before getting back to port. They had accommodation for about three people too.
However, I am slightly digressing here; long after modern fishing vessels had replaced these, many still remained, until someone realised that, after removing the heavy equipment (stoves etc) from these vessels, they were hydrodynamically very good 'sailers' and able to develop a decent speed. These were then called 'Nobbys' and not long after there came Nobby Owners Clubs, which then progressed to National Nobby Racing.
Owners would come from all over the country to compete, and there were a few held on the Mersey. I actually crewed for my friend but unfortunately we were eliminated from the race early on due to capsizing in strong winds, and an inexperienced helmsman (not me, by the way).
Getting back to Bramley-Moore Dock, my friend had a berth there in order to repair the vessel and get it ready for the upcoming Nobby Races on the Mersey. I did all the mechanical and electrical work for him, and made regular trips to the dock in order to do so. It was in a terrible state of disrepair then and, like I say, that was 30 years ago, and I don't believe anything has been touched since then, so I know what the place is like.
Sorry if I have bored anyone but sometimes a bit of local history can be both enlightening and hopefully interesting too!
13 Posted 24/02/2021 at 07:12:43
14 Posted 24/02/2021 at 07:12:57
Atherstone used to be synonymous around the world for hat production, and there is one remaining factory left, its empty, abs falling apart now.
Over the years, developers have bought the buildings with a view to turn into apartments, with the latest plans retaining the front facade, each and every time the local conservation group have blocked that plans at every turn in the cause of “history”
The buildings are now in a state of disrepair, trees growing out of the roofs, and are now all fenced off, falling apart and wont be long until they need knocking down.
These are a prime example of how these can go.
15 Posted 24/02/2021 at 08:23:12
Spot on, also any rejection at national level would make a mockery of the "Northern Powerhouse" project.
16 Posted 24/02/2021 at 09:11:21
17 Posted 24/02/2021 at 09:37:57
"would have a completely unacceptable major adverse impact on the authenticity, integrity and outstanding universal value"
You could literally apply this sentence to anything but without any robust tangible data it means nothing.
Someones been watching too much countdown me thinks.
18 Posted 24/02/2021 at 10:11:28
You are one of the very few to have been inside this universally appreciated integral historically important shit tip !!
I suppose 30 years ago you too walked around amazed at all its majesty in awe of its splendour, like being in the Vatican or the Taj Mahal on your own!!
Love the story about the boats Derek and some excellent points made.
Emma @14 makes the perfect example of how these idiots would rather see buildings crumble than redevelop them sympathetically, its almost comical that the people who they oppose ( Everton) will restore and celebrate? the history of the site more than any of these organisations could in a 100years.
19 Posted 24/02/2021 at 10:38:17
Just looked up the "nobby" sail boat thanks to your piece, what a great looking vessel
20 Posted 24/02/2021 at 10:46:43
When BMD was announced as the location for the new ground I parked up inside the gates and walked around the dock (some warehouses were still in use - they might still be?). Derelict is an understatement but it wasn't hard to imagine a new ground (though it did seem it would be a tight fit). Onwards to the design images and they just blow your mind away.
Nobby Knox, eh.
21 Posted 24/02/2021 at 10:58:18
22 Posted 24/02/2021 at 11:00:37
I think he may be having a dig at his own club for the way they handled the sale of their training ground with little consultation with the local community, unlike Everton who consulted extensively with all sections of the community. I know a local resident who attended one of the meetings they had about the sale of the training ground, and he said the amount of Liverpool supporting residents who spoke at the meeting all said its a pity our club cant behave the way our neighbours have done in their consultations over their new stadium.
So Historic England and UNESCO can object all they like this project will go ahead and it will attract thousands of new visitors to the City. I think these organisations are so stuck in their ways, as a previous poster said part of the heritage of this site is the dock wall which was built by slave labour during the Napolionic wars and many died building those walls is that what UNESCO and Historic England are happy to endorse
23 Posted 24/02/2021 at 11:32:57
40 years ago when I was 15 me and my mates would go night fishing there off the dock wall. We were meant to be sleeping over at each other's houses but we regularly met up and spent the night at the docks. It was in a dilapidated state of decay then. Rotting cranes, warehouses and masonry everywhere. Nothing at all was in any way maintained. When we got bored used to inspect the warehouses on our fishing trips. We went into one and took the tarpaulin of a large trailer. There were six silver Deloreans in there on the way to to the US.
I suppose that Unesco would also object to the Sydney Opera house on similar grounds or other iconic landmarks. If UNESCO or Historic England were around when the docks and dock walls were getting built they would have objected to them too. They have to embrace progress and pragmatism and then come up with constructive criticism or they are defunct.
24 Posted 24/02/2021 at 11:33:51
My grandad had his business on Kempson St. I've got pictures of it with his sign outside. It was full of big, Victorian (I presume) houses. Nowadays, there's only a few left and the rest is empty spaces and a few cheap looking shops. Where was ‘Historic England' then?
City planners did even more damage then bloody Hitler and Thatcher did!!
25 Posted 24/02/2021 at 12:02:23
I/we had some laughs during the refurbishment of that vessel, I said in our first race we capsized, which we did, but I will expand on the reason a bit more. Neville my mate, had never had a boat before, so the only knowledge he picked up was either from books or whatever as there was no Internet then.
He knew it needed a new mast and rigging, so as I was doing the refurb work in my spare time or week-ends, he asked me as I was working in Scotland at the Baxter's Factory (Fochabers) on a temporary basis doing some Installation work. To try and befriend some Forestry Workers so he could order directly from them and get the mast made to his specifications. This I duly did and complied with his wishes.
Both myself and others who knew better said that the mast had to be a certain size for that type of boat, and proportionate to it's length and depth of keel. No, Neville would not hear of it, he insisted on it being at least 3 feet taller. His theory was, that as he had to get the sails custom made anyway, he may as well customise the mast too.
He erroneously thought the bigger mast and the bigger the sails, would mean a much faster vessel and he would win his "maiden race". Of course these things are worked out mathematically and not on the back of a Benson and Hedges fag packet.
On the day of the race there must have been about twenty or so similar Nobbys, all with the correct sized mast and sails, I must hasten to add, assembled in the Mersey for the start. It was a very windy day which is what you need for sailing of course, but this was a tad too strong and demanded the utmost of skills from the helmsman.
Of course with it being Neville's boat he insisted on being the Captain, his previous sailing experience had been gained on Southport Boating Lake. Where I must hasten to add he got a Certificate, a Badge and a lolly-ice for doing so. Of course with his limited skills being taxed to the maximum, and the boat being top heavy the extra volume of wind in the sails, just toppled it over.
This was before the race had officially started as you will have no doubt guessed by now. Because of the Lock system, employed to coincide with the tide levels, we had to stay out of the race contestants way, but were unable to return to the dock until the lock gates were re-opened 3 hours later.
At least we did provide the onlookers with an unexpected comedy act, though at the time myself and fellow crew member Terry who were submerged completely, trying to counter balance the Captains erratic yachtsmanship, were soaked to the skin.
I don't know why they depict Rivers on Maps as being blue, the Mersey then, as it is now is anything but sepia toned,( there were Garston Trout) and that's on a good day. There was a presentation later and a few drinks, but the good news to this story, is we actually won a prize, though hardly a coveted one, they called it a Booby!
26 Posted 24/02/2021 at 12:08:17
As someone said, it's important to remember where you've come from to guide where you go (paraphrasing). I think Everton have done their best to incorporate the history of this historic dock into the design and have been commended for it. These unaccountable agencies, such as Historic England and Unesco should be applauding the Club's efforts and not putting blockers in.
Frankly I can't see what benefit being a World Heritage Site brings to a derelict area. It's not as if the tourists (and locals) are queuing up to look at an old brick wall. The regeneration of Liverpool City shouldn't be limited by quangos who are flexing their “muscle” at the expense of a major project that will be both transformative and inspirational.
I sincerely hope the clear benefits outweigh any objections at Central Government level. Hopefully, the politics of Brexit economics will have this pushed through quickly and Unesco etc will be put back in their box.
27 Posted 24/02/2021 at 12:16:19
28 Posted 24/02/2021 at 12:20:30
"We went into one and took the tarpaulin of a large trailer. There were six silver DeLoreans in there on the way to the US."
I assume only 5 were shipped out!
29 Posted 24/02/2021 at 12:31:19
30 Posted 24/02/2021 at 13:37:07
Another superb story, "Went night fishing and caught 6 Deloreans" – brilliant.
Derek @25 again, laugh out loud funny.
31 Posted 24/02/2021 at 13:59:57
I like Brent's suggestion that hereafter you go by "Nobby" Knox. Has a certain ring to it.
32 Posted 24/02/2021 at 14:14:32
33 Posted 24/02/2021 at 14:33:31
34 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:08:22
(But I can recommend the Slavery Museum in the Maritime.)
35 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:11:27
36 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:38:16
I'd leave it till around 2023-24!
37 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:43:00
A. 54. One to change the light bulb and 53 to talk about how good the old one was.
38 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:48:22
So, if when we leave Goodison, we have approx 31,000 season ticket holders and a further say 20,000 on the list which isn't a big increase from were the list is at present. But we won't be able to accommodate all those on the list as we have to allow a percentage for away fans, and in FA Cup games I think we have to guarantee 25% to away supporters.
Now I know that the club have said that, if safe standing is allowed, they have the ability to increase the attendance to 62,000. But doesn't this really say that, given we haven't been succesful for a long time and could attract up to 62,000 shouldn't we be thinking about increasing the seated number of fans to near that number? And, if safe standing is allowed, that gives us flexibility for away fans and home FA Cup allocations.
39 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:50:18
My kids are actually not behaving well. So a full day excursion next November will be an adequate punishment.
40 Posted 24/02/2021 at 15:53:16
41 Posted 24/02/2021 at 16:03:32
42 Posted 24/02/2021 at 16:19:55
43 Posted 24/02/2021 at 16:36:12
The story of slaves building the dock wall is a a sort of historical fantasy/urban myth. Some of it may well have been built by French Napoleanic PoWs but they were hardly slaves.
The Liverpool slave traders used a triangular trade system. Manufactured goods and raw materials from Liverpool to Africa, human slave cargo from Africa to America and cotton from America to Liverpool. So, it certainly wasn't African slaves, either.
44 Posted 24/02/2021 at 16:43:59
Unfortunately the nickname does not imply I was well endowed from birth, which I wasn't. :-)
45 Posted 24/02/2021 at 16:55:05
Consider yourself lucky. :-)
46 Posted 24/02/2021 at 17:06:59
They're worried about the look of a dock in a dilapidated area desperately in need of regeneration? They're willing to forgo thousands of jobs and economic revitalization because they want the dock walls to look authentic, despite the developer working to keep the look and feel of the exterior?
These Historic Societies have their place and purpose. This project is definably not one of them. It's an over-reach of immense proportions.
"Yo! Got this bazillionaire who wants to build this gigantic stadium in this shithole of water that's an eyesore and providing nothing to the community of value. It's like a bog that stinks and looks shite."
"But what about those walls? They've been there for hundreds of years?"
This Joe Hanson, red or not, says it all and has his head screwed on straight. From a long, long distance, I hope more local politicians and influencers are singing from his hymn sheet.
"I find it a little bit insulting that you have Historic England who don't live in Liverpool, I don't even know where they live, but they can come in and pontificate and ask for a call-in that could place that project in jeopardy and delay what Everton are trying to do."
That little bit is brilliant. Frame it as the fringe outsiders come to take your jobs from your kids and tell you how to run your community. Great PR approach to the entire thing. Shrewd.
47 Posted 24/02/2021 at 17:08:59
Be interesting to see how large the waiting list will be when all obstacles are removed.
Paul Andrews and Sam have got this.
48 Posted 24/02/2021 at 17:22:34
I was wondering how such a well proportioned boat tipped many thanks for the explanation. My missus will almost appear interested when I tell her of another case of wishful thinking about extra length causing trouble.
49 Posted 24/02/2021 at 17:48:52
50 Posted 24/02/2021 at 18:24:54
Don, everyone's gone mad!
51 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:01:58
Colin, I sincerely hope by 'disgusting instruments' you, weren't referring to the bagpipes, I could defend my heritage and argue they are a melodic, harmonious works of art, and that they are loved by many, even south of the Border, and not down Mexican Way ! :-)
52 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:06:38
I normally go past any longwinded email (from the pessimistic crew ) but I found your story gripping as my Dad worked almost opposite Bramley-Moore Dock as an Accountant with a whaling company (yes a few years ago)! A great story.
My dad took me to Goodison (following family tradition) as a 5-year-old in 1963 (with from memory) a win against Fulham under the lights 4-0.
I have until this day (having lived not far away from Craven Cottage) got a soft spot for the London team.
Anyway I have a simple plan on the final say for Bramley-Moore Dock. We have a poster on TW called Jimmy Salt. Forgive me, Jimmy, but this is straight out of The Godfather. Jimmy "the salt" can surely make the Government "an offer they cannot refuse!"
53 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:09:52
I believe some were brought to Liverpool and sold, by auction, to wealthy families, but it wasn't a trade involving 1000s (one is too many) but more of a sideline. It's decades since I looked but the LRO has the auction adverts from the local press of the time.
The metal hoops that were on The Strand (maybe still are?) were installed years after the slave trade ended. Contrary to urban myth, they appear to have been used to tether carter's horses.
54 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:14:32
55 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:42:05
56 Posted 24/02/2021 at 19:52:12
57 Posted 24/02/2021 at 23:57:58
The dock wall in question is the actual wall of the dock itself, which is Grade II listed and was built by Jesse Hartley in 1848.
It was certainly not built by slaves as (1) Slavery was abolished for British participants in 1833 and (2) As pointed out, African slavery was a triangular operation with slaves being transported directly from West Africa to the Caribbean and America.
Original dock walls have been covered up and preserved in other filled-in docks along the waterfront and, as far as I am aware, the Everton plans seek to do this underneath the stadium.
58 Posted 25/02/2021 at 06:29:12
So the preferred solution of Unesco would be to have a floating pitch in the dock basin itself, with the stadium built around the basin.
No problem, The Float
59 Posted 25/02/2021 at 09:26:53
You are correct about the wall, a great many people seem to think the Regent Road boundary wall is the area of dispute.
The internal dock wall (that cannot be seen) will be preserved in sand. Should we ever leave it will still be there waiting to be uncovered by future archaeologists! Surely that should satisfy Unesco?
60 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:55:30
This is the process with large building projects on heritage sites and has happened in London with Crossrail and all along the HS2 rail line. It delays the actual building work but is factored into the planning, I'm sure.
The heritage is preserved, albeit out of view, and the future can progress. The City of London, for example, is built over ancient Roman structural remains which are preserved, some visible, beneath modern foundations.
Robert Jennrick should find no problems in passing this planning application.
61 Posted 25/02/2021 at 15:20:52
Also, a major point that seems to be constantly missed is the fact that the 'Jewel in the Crown' of the World Heritage Site, ie, The Pier Head, including the 'Three Rraces', is built on the site of former docks that were infilled to allow new development! Thus the dock estate evolved to meet changing demands. Which is exactly what is happening at Bramley-Moore Dock.
62 Posted 25/02/2021 at 15:30:48
Tricia O'Brien, who chaired Tuesday's meeting, has appended the following extremely supportive message to the submission sent to the Secretary of State, Robert Jenrick, charged with giving it the green light:
63 Posted 25/02/2021 at 16:33:41
The difference of course around the Pier Head is all the development and new usage has been done whilst maintaining the architectural integrity of the historic buildings.
The buffer zone point is really important because it does allow within the planning guidelines that if the benefit outweighs the harm then the application can be readily allowed.
It's a strange set of circumstances because I don't have a problem with the Unesco and Historic England positions, I just don't agree with it.
Normally I guess in most cases a lot of posters on here would support an organisation that seeks to temper big business and trying to preserve historical sites. I'm sure that most when the originally heard Liverpool waterfront was one of only 1200 sites in the world classed as a World Heritage Site, they would have been justifiably proud.
As I say, I don't agree with their viewpoint in this instance – it's far enough away and brings too much economic benefit – but that doesn't mean I don't support their overall ethos, because they provide as a useful check and balance in the overall planning system.
64 Posted 25/02/2021 at 17:16:25
How they got through planning.
Imo they are not sympathetic with the existing architecture.
Liverpool Museum looks industrial compared to the beauty surrounding it.
An ugly building.
Given the enhancement to the area a stadium will bring I believe the stadium will sail through the procedure.
65 Posted 25/02/2021 at 17:34:43
The Echo Arena I think is a better example. That sits in the buffer zone I suspect and achieved planning permission.
The Liverpool Museum will always divide opinion. I quite like neo-classicism myself but its hard to argue its not got architectural merit whereas the Arena is a bit of a cookie cutter modern stadium.
66 Posted 25/02/2021 at 17:37:57
The street's are. Rodney Street. Gladstone Road. Cunliffe Street. Tarleton Street. Exchange Flags. Parr Street. Sir Thomas Street. Blackburne Place. and Earle Street. A number of them were early prominent Liverpool citizens.
67 Posted 25/02/2021 at 17:47:27
My point was the close proximity of the Liverpool Museum to the Three Graces.
It is totally out of character to its surroundings.
But still allowed to be built,the brutalist architecture around the three graces, especially on the north side of the Liver Buildings has all been passed as fit to build despite the beauty of the area.
This wont get called in imo.
68 Posted 25/02/2021 at 18:03:00
There is no requirement for buildings to be of a similar character, after all the great cities of the world have always evolved and represent differing architectural styles. What they do have to have is architectural merit. That doesnt mean youve got to like them, it does mean they have been built using design principles that stand for something.
You have more confidence than me, I hope youre right.
69 Posted 25/02/2021 at 18:22:18
70 Posted 25/02/2021 at 18:32:51
I wonder if Paul and John were aware of that when they penned it?
To his credit, Joe Anderson (before more recent events that have seen him take a back seat from office) a year ago in January 2020, even before the Black Lives Matter global movement took hold, proposed educating people more on Liverpool street, monument and place names associated with the slave trade.
It wasn't just talk. By August 2020 the council named 20 Liverpool streets that would be getting an explanatory plaque about their association to the slave trade.
The policy strikes me as mature and intelligent, rather than a wholesale changing of street names as a moral kneejerk to an unsavoury past. Use it as a vehicle to educate, rather than eradicate completely the past.
The articles mention that many of the streets form part of popular city walking tours, so guides have the opportunity to inform tourists more of the city's history.
It is also helped by having the wonderful International Slavery Museum in the city to reinforce that history.
And Graham @ 63. I agree with the thrust of your post. We do need bodies like Unesco and Historic England to protect and safeguard treasured heritage sites.
Without them, developers and local and central governments would do a Joni Mitchell and put up a parking lot on them for the quick buck.
On balance, I believe that Everton's Bramley-Moore Dock project helps protect, preserve and promote the city's dockland heritage, rather than concrete over it and should be granted.
71 Posted 25/02/2021 at 18:48:06
I grew up on Penny Lane. Grove Mount were the playing fields we used to play football. 20 a side games that didnt finish until it went dark. These days whenever I visit Liverpool a visit to the Penny Lane Wine Bar and Fogartys is de riguer
The link to James Penny is disputed by historians. It first shows on a map as Pennies Lane sometime in the 19th century. That and the fact it is so far out of the city centre means the link to James Penny is probably circumstantial.
72 Posted 25/02/2021 at 18:58:04
It highlights how you need to tread carefully when attempting to engage in 'cancel culture' or revising the past.
Educate, not eradicate, as I wrote earlier.
73 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:06:37
You may have missed this Jay, as you live in Brazil.
74 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:07:40
Abhorent trade. Young people should be constantly reminded. Keep most of the street names but place information plaques on them. Giving a warts-and-all account of the slaver the street was named in "honour" of.
75 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:08:51
When I say landmark, back in the day of the song it was just mentioned as "A Shelter", but I'm sure you get my drift!
76 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:19:10
I think the guy whos got it is a bit of a chancer. Lots of promises, little action.
I used to use that shelter as a kid. Used to get the 99 to Old Swan on my way to school or the 46 to Walton on match days.
77 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:21:25
78 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:23:22
Penny Lane had nothing to do with a slave trader and such references were even removed from a street name exhibit at the Liverpool Slavery Museum.
Interesting again, Derek. In the two articles I linked, one makes the reference to Penny Lane being named after the slave ship owner, showing a photo of the street plaque. The other has a photo of (presumably) the exhibition you reference at the Slave Museum in which again Penny Lane features.
Is that quite recent knowledge, or the museum photo taken from old stock as the referenced articles are also quite recent, from January and August 2020.
79 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:28:59
It consisted of two toilet blocks either side of a waiting room.
As kids when we were knocking around at night in winter time, it provided a welcome place you could get a bit of warmth.
In the mornings waiting for the bus sometimes you couldn't see the people at the opposite side due to the ciggy smoke. Happy days!
80 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:30:45
81 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:34:38
Was there also a bus conductor's office /brew room? Woolies around the corner?
82 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:36:22
This was the article I read
83 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:37:23
Correct. The Woolies was around the corner on Allerton Road.
84 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:39:37
85 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:40:21
Liverpool Schoolboys played there, good pitch if I recall correctly.
86 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:42:28
87 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:44:34
I know the church though.
Next to a betting shop?
88 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:46:22
I lived on Ashdale Road that ran onto Dovedale school. Being a left-footer, I went to St Anthony of Padua.
Of course it was always 'Grovie' – not Grove Mount.
89 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:47:07
90 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:49:10
It was William Hills. As a student, I used to mark the boards in there.
91 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:51:00
Good little hour there lads down memory lane.
92 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:51:01
Does anyone remember the name of the sports shop in Garston? I would spend all my paper round money there.
93 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:51:01
Reading an article that says there is no historical evidence that Penny Lane is named after the slave trader. James Penny. The first records of it are in the 1840s and it was called Pennies Lane, in a rural area of Liverpool back then. This was about 50 years after James Penny's death.
The historian, and one from the Maritime museum, concluded there wasn't any evidence of a link and that it would be odd to name a rural country road, way out from the city centre, in that way.
94 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:53:00
95 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:53:40
There's another memory. The board marker. Always handy if you kept in with him while looking to take a price on a well-backed horse.
96 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:54:48
Friday nights in the 70s that will have probably been?
97 Posted 25/02/2021 at 19:58:04
It's an occupation that many now wouldn't understand. A bit like being a lamplighter!
Learnt the trade at Stanley Racing in Halewood. Hills on Allerton Road had the advantage it didn't get held up nearly as much.
98 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:00:29
For anyone in Liverpool who is interested, Tim Johnson, who worked for the Echo, has written a book called. Penny Lane. A Celebration of Liverpool Schools Football 1887-2018.
99 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:00:34
100 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:01:01
Loved the board markers. Very difficult time for them after 3pm boozer closing on a Saturda.y
101 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:06:18
It was just a bit early for me. But I do remember walking home from Cubs on a Friday night down Queens Drive watching the hordes of teenagers who looked impossibly cool to a 10-year-old on their way there.
102 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:08:09
103 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:10:20
I lived on the back on Grove Mount and used to watch all the schoolboy matches. I even had schoolboy trials there once upon a time.
I remember seeing Cliff Marshall, our first ever black player, score a hat-trick there in the schoolboy team.
104 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:12:08
105 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:12:18
106 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:15:08
Board markers, cash in hand, never had the pleasure to do that job, but a mate of mine was the board marker in Hills, London Road. A Chinese gentleman came in one Friday afternoon with a briefcase; he got called into the manager's office, obviously putting a big cash bet on.
My mate was on to it, he harassed the manager for the name of the horse. The manager said it was worth more than his job to tell him. My mate wouldn't give in... Every 20 minutes, he was down his ear. In the end, the manager told him the Chinaman had £7,000 on the horse, it was running the next day. He swore my mate to secrecy, my mate crossed his heart and hoped to die etc, etc.
Anyway, the next day, everyone in The Goblin, local pub, was on the horse, cheering it home in the 2:30 pm race... except the bastard finished second, not even close! And my mate, instead of getting “dropsies”, got dog's abuse for the next few weeks.
107 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:19:33
We won the cup though, so everything was alright!
108 Posted 25/02/2021 at 20:22:19
Great story. It was a tough school marking the boards. You'd get some dog's abuse at times... Character-building, I think they call it.
I graduated to bingo calling which was a lot less stressful and had the advantage of being a predominantly female environment. Happy days indeed.
109 Posted 25/02/2021 at 21:53:49
That's how I remembered it, I went there I think it was 1954 the following week I broke a bone in my foot, and the only other time I went was with a friend of mine who had a trial the next year.
110 Posted 25/02/2021 at 23:51:55
I also used to watch Liverpool Schoolboys there and I too remember Cliff Marshall plus George Telfer star for them.
111 Posted 26/02/2021 at 00:06:48
112 Posted 26/02/2021 at 00:36:21
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