Grey Day for Dancing with Wolves

by   |   10/01/2021  61 Comments  [Jump to last]

It's a grey Sunday morning here in New Brighton... there is a magpie on the roof opposite, just sitting and looking out towards The City and The River, all grey, no lights but a pale blue on the side of one of the larger building near the waterfront to at least give a glimmer of colour.

I am in a pensive mood, listening to Erik Satie and Claude Debussy. I watched the game yesterday – unable to attend of course. I follow Everton by choice; I go when I can, only stopped by authorities and law. This makes me think, I have longed believed that football – like everything else in the world – is not only changing (for the worse) but is gradually being taken away from those who stood with them from the very start.

I am ruminating on Tosun's gesture, and his cowardice in denying it, and I realise that football and footballers nowadays are like puppets, marionettes, wooden and unable to do anything unless someone pulls their strings.

I always comment on the now normal practice of religious gestures when coming onto the pitch or scoring; as I said to my friends, I would not go to a Church and start singing “Everton!” I respect their space. I am not against anyone's religion. I really believe in it is every person's choice to be what they are – but don't "sell" it to me.

So it's the gesture by Tosun and his denial of it – we all know what he supports – the choice for me is: Do I let this stop me going to the match or supporting Everton? No, absolutely not... but in our long discussions and debates in The Dark House we demand no racism, no right-wing politics, no fascism of any kind in our talks and arguments.

What a sad state we have allowed the authorities, moneymen, hangers-on, agents and TV to do with our beloved sport. Each game I install within myself, from my physche, from my heart and soul and memories and beliefs, I create my "posso" waves for me and to share with you – in spite of the reality of the absolute dire garbage that is thrown at us (football fans, not only Evertonians) by the system.

For goodness sake, Nuno Espirito Santo got reprimanded for complaining about the referee... Why? Why?? Why??? A closed clique shop full of corruption and self-centredness.

If not for friends, and I include all you TW nutcases, my goodness – football would be nothing. Indeed, football without fans is nothing.

My sincere best wishes and cosmic grooves to you all. Take care in these difficult days and hopefully we can meet again some sunny day.

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Fran Mitchell
1 Posted 10/01/2021 at 08:54:47
Tosun also appears to sympathise with neo-fascists in Turkey.

Get rid.

Jay Woods
3 Posted 10/01/2021 at 10:46:39
@ Fran Mitchell, if Tosun were a raving red-flag waving Lefty, would he still be a "git" that can "do one"?
Ray Roche
4 Posted 10/01/2021 at 10:54:33
Fran, Tosun denies making a political gesture. Having seen it, it looks no different to any of the other pathetic gestures made by the thumb sucking, hand waving bellends sorry, grown men who trot out every match day at various grounds around the country.

And don’t fucking start me on the choreographed ‘dance routines’!

Fran Mitchell
5 Posted 10/01/2021 at 11:16:11
Tosun denied it, so that makes it alright?

It's not the first time. He's done it for Turkey, now he's doing it in our shirt. What, he just coincidentally points to the sky in that rather unnatural way, and that just so happens to be a neo-fascist sign.

If a player celebrated a goal with a Heil hitler salute, would that be acceptable? What if they denied it, then did it again, is that ok?


Fascist scum should be treated as such. Fascists are not welcome. Fascist supporters are not welcome.

Peter Mills
6 Posted 10/01/2021 at 11:33:52
George, to bring a little light into a grey morning, over 17,000 football fans from all over the world (some from this site, and Jose Mourinho) have paid £10 each for a virtual ticket for Marine’s game today against Spurs.

They receive nothing for their £10, although Marine have decided their names will go on a board at the ground. It is a wonderful demonstration of solidarity from the true stars of football - the fans.

Martin Mason
7 Posted 10/01/2021 at 11:55:46
Fran. It wasn't a fascist gesture unless you can prove it. Your opinion isn't proof.
Jay Woods
8 Posted 10/01/2021 at 11:57:17
Today's leftarded definition of fascist: 1 inch to right of Stalin.
Alan J Thompson
9 Posted 10/01/2021 at 11:58:03
Peter; Wow! 17,000 names on a board? Hope it is black and written in chalk or the gesture will swallow the prize. Goodison in the next round, just to save traveling costs, obviously.
Danny O’Neill
10 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:00:35
Fascinating read on an equally dark grey morning here in west London George. Thank you.

'I really believe in it is every person's choice to be what they are – but don't "sell" it to me

This says a lot for me. I also concur with the sentiment of no racism, right-wing politics or fascism of any kind in our football debates; I would also add left-wing extremism to that – extremism at either end of the spectrum has more in common than those involved would care to admit.

I don't know what it is about Turkish players and their links to political activism. Ozil, for example, seems more preoccupied with this than his football in recent years as have many of the German players of Turkish origin. If that lad had focussed more on the gift he was blessed with than politics, he could have been something big. And that's talking about a World Cup winner.

Patrick McFarlane
11 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:03:39
Having never heard of the 'grey wolves' I had no idea who or what they were. Tosun, in my opinion in the picture shown in the link below, is stating what the score was 2-1 even though the goal didn't count due to VAR.

Unless somebody can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that his intention was different from what he said it was, he should be given the benefit of doubt.


Kim Vivian
12 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:27:23
I noticed nothing (in my ignorance perhaps) in the gesture/goal celebration and don't see it particularly as an unnatural gesture - unlike a raised and held fist in the air for example.

Like Patrick I have never heard of the Grey Wolves or whateverthefuck they are, but what I did consciously notice was that when "taking the knee", Tosun was kneeling on the ball. Might mean nothing but it did strike me as odd, and maybe not being in full agreement of the gesture as it were.

Dave Abrahams
13 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:30:41
George, nice post as usual. I agree with most of it but, as Peter points out, there are thousands, possibly millions, of genuine football fans all over the world still in love with football and show it in different ways. Supporting a small non-league club financially speaks volumes for me, and knowing you George, I bet it warmed your heart too.

“Come on you Mariners” will be the shout all over the place today, not out of disrespect for Spurs, but because they are not only the underdogs they are the heart and soul of football. COYM.

Don Wright
14 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:34:19
No, Kim, Nothing untoward... he just wanted to keep his knee clean.
George McKane
15 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:41:44
Peter and Dave – absolutely, it is not the "grabbers" who entice me to the match and make me miss it – it is you two and, as I said all the other TWers, all of them.

It is very sad when you go to an away match and get shunted around like criminals and pubs have signs saying "no scousers" (still!!!!) – but a few years ago I went to The Emirates and spent before and after the match with Arsenal fans, arguing, debating, agreeing, disagreeing, singing – marvellous – that's what footy is about.

Best wishes to Marine today. I have a friend of mine who lives in Chorley, goes to every game, when it's on. I'm made up for him.

Fran Mitchell
16 Posted 10/01/2021 at 12:43:01

He has done the gesture before while playing for Turkey. He has apparently told Everton he is unaware of the 'Grey Wolves' organisation – which is highly unlikely and seems a cop-out.

If we had a German player and he celebrated with a Heil Hitler salute, would we give him the 'benefit of the doubt'?

Ray Jacques
17 Posted 10/01/2021 at 13:25:52
Fran, he didn't do a Nazi salute, did he? So your argument is flawed and your question is irrelevant.

Politics and sport should be separate but you seem to be saying we can only have players with the same political viewpoint as you.

What if we signed a player with extreme left-wing views and a love of Stalin, would that be okay by you?

They are footballers and should just act as such. My son is a policeman in the Met, BLM want to defund the police. What should I do as I am against racism, but believe in the institution of law and order yet this is supported by the Premier league and our media and players take the knee. Some players raise a fist, which to me is a symbol of aggression, yet this is accepted.

We have seen the farce in USA this week and these are strange and worrying times, so again I say sport should be an escape, an entertainment and politics of all views should be left out of it.

Barry Rathbone
18 Posted 10/01/2021 at 14:18:55
Just watched the YouTube highlights and don't see how anyone can tell what Tosun was doing, the relevant footage lasts a millisecond. All a bit weird... smacks of wanting to see something imo.

If the Grey Wolf thing hadn't been raised, I would have thought it was the gesture young people make when wearing baseball caps backwards. The rush to indignation seems unfounded.

George McKane
19 Posted 10/01/2021 at 14:25:47
Hi Barry,

I am not rushing nor looking for indignation, honestly, just a bit fed up with what surrounds the actual playing or non-playing of football.

I get a bit fed up with all the gestures, dancing, praying – just a comment really, but I do detest any sign of fascism. I am a believer in shouting out against political (either side) or religious dogma, straight away, but totally accept anybody's right to be and say and look however they want but also to accept my and anybody's right to challenge and respond – all without bullying or violence.

Take care mate. All the best.

Alan McGuffog
20 Posted 10/01/2021 at 14:54:56
I'd be delighted if all religious and political symbolism were removed from the pitch.

I seem to recall, back in the day, the likes of Colin Harvey and Mick Lyons quickly making the sign of the cross as the game kicked off.

Today it's like Easter in Sevilla, the rituals that some of these players indulge in. I swear I once saw a player cross himself after winning a corner.

One can only assume the churches are full of professional footballers every Sunday.

Carl Rutherford
21 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:27:24
Patrick and Fran, outside of a law court, proving "beyond doubt" is not used – it's more about "balance of probability". That's why John Terry was banned but not prosecuted.

The Suarez / Evra incident was similar. It means, if someone makes a racist comment then denies it, they aren't as likely to get away with it. So in this instance we have to ask:

Did he make a gesture that resembles the fascist symbol? Clearly he did.

Do we accept his explanation that he was just pointing to the sky and he has never heard of the Grey Wolves?

Well, they are well known enough to be banned in countries like Germany and, given that they are aligned with views he has supported in the past, this would seem like a stretch.

I personally hope he gets / banned punished and as a result, as it may encourage copycat actions if he doesn't. If he does, he may never play for Everton again, which wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Dennis Stevens
22 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:28:50
At first glance, I thought Tosun must be a big fan of the late great Ronnie James Dio!
Alan McGuffog
23 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:40:16
I note, according to Red Echo, that an individual with a Twitter account has apologised for making the initial suggestion.

Dontchya love social media? 🤨

Patrick McFarlane
24 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:44:09
I have no sympathies with any extremist organisation or those who might gesture their support for such, whether that be a player who wears a blue shirt or anyone else. But a rush to judgement by some using his past actions whilst on International duty, in order to condemn his actions yesterday is not helpful.

If indeed, Tosun has misled us about his intentions and was signalling his support for an extremist organisation, then perhaps he might be advised to move to a club and fan-base that finds this sort of thing acceptable – which would probably mean he would have to leave the UK.

Tony Abrahams
25 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:44:49
Even if he never consciously meant to do anything political, the fact that he's denying something that exists in his home country doesn't really make sense.

In a similar way, Robbie Fowler never made any sense in snorting a white line, because nobody had called him a cokehead, which is exactly what he implied the day he pretended to snort a white line!

Ray Roche
26 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:45:11
What if you're an agnostic, an atheist, you regard all religion as offensive, as the cause of so many wars, so many terrorist atrocities? What if you're offended by all this faux religious crossing, looking up at the heavens etc?

To some, That crap will be just as offensive as Tosun's alleged “fascist" salute. Why not ban any religious or political gesture from all stadiums? And leave sport to itself.

Barry Rathbone
27 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:48:40

I agree it's a game of footy nothing more.

This business of clapping for deceased fans at a prescribed minute, pre-kickoff minutes silence (applause) and "taking the knee" all look like tokenism because of over-use.

People say I'm unsympathetic for wanting snipers on the roof to pick people off and stop the crap but footy is so boring these days it would at least be a talking point. The cackness of our midfield and the question of can Pickford catch a high ball is wearing thin.

Alan McGuffog
28 Posted 10/01/2021 at 15:58:01
The minute's "applause" was brought in because the modern supporter cannot go for a whole minute without opening his fat yap, checking his phone, or bellowing "Gerrus a jumbo sausage roll, Billy la!" thereby observing a minutes silence.

They wanted me for Victor Meldrew, you know.

Thomas Richards
29 Posted 10/01/2021 at 16:11:16
The situation with religion is not really an issue. It only becomes one when someone tries to force their religion on others. Look at how the Christian militia in the USA is trying just that for all the evidence you need.

A mate of mine was stopped as we were walking one time by a man asking him to 'praise the lord'. My mate tried, politely, to say he had no interest. The man would not have it, kept trying to force his beliefs. My mate, a lovely lad, had enough.

"With respect. Please don't force your religion on me. In return, I won't force my atheism on you."

Each to their own, of course. If anyone supports right-wing fanaticism in this city, they will soon find out the strength of opposition.

Jason Wilkinson
30 Posted 10/01/2021 at 16:18:51
Who came up with this?🤘 The Grey Wolves, Cenk Tosun or Apple Corp?🤔
Ian Pilkington
31 Posted 10/01/2021 at 16:48:29
There is no justification whatsoever for this condemnation of Tosun other than an accusation from a single Twitter account.

Does this seriously justify a thread on here?

Michael Kenrick
32 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:09:29
I feel the same way, Ian, and was determined not to have a thread on this utter garbage... but our dear readers (a number of them) clearly thought otherwise. It would have meant staying on point and being fast enough to delete all their posts, so they won.
Ray Roche
33 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:13:04
Of course not, Ian, but it does allow some people to be offended, outraged and suitably insulted, and also gives them the opportunity to show just how anti-fascist they are. Much more than you or I.
Thomas Richards
34 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:20:00
That's pathetic, Ray.

Some decent comments on this thread on a subject inhabitants of the city will have no truck with. Look at the response of the city when the EDL tried to march here.

I understand it's a football site but it's relevant given the reports involving one of our players.

Ray Roche
35 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:36:06
It's not pathetic, Thomas. What is pathetic is people hijacking a fans football site to display their own political views. All because someone on Twitter (ffs) accused Tosun of making a hand gesture identical to that used by countless gurning, prancing idiots on social media, an accusation later deleted with an apology.

Keep sport out of politics. And religion out of sport.

Patrick McFarlane
36 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:41:46
Ray #35,

I don't believe many of us want political discussions on a football forum.

However, it was an Everton player who has been accused, and according to reports, the FA are said to be looking into his actions - which could mean he is banned or prevented from joining another club due to the adverse publicity or ban, thereby hamstringing Everton's necessity to bring in a fresh player or two.

Thomas Richards
37 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:44:58
"Keep sport out of politics. And religion out of sport."

I agree 100%.

"Pathetic" was in relation to you suggesting posters were in competition to win the title of "I'm a bigger anti-fascist than you".

I personally don't think Tosun was making a political gesture, btw.

Ray Roche
38 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:50:02
Patrick, I accept that what you say may be true, Tosun has been accused of using a commonly used hand gesture, however, is he guilty until proved innocent or vice versa? Surely, that's more like a fascist state way of doing things. Maybe we should wait for the outcome of any “reported“ investigation?

If he has deliberately used a gesture that is solely used by these Grey Wolves then, and only then, can we rip into him.

Patrick McFarlane
39 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:52:21
Ray #38,

If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I agree with your thoughts on the matter entirely.

George McKane
40 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:52:41
Or maybe we should all stay quiet, say nothing, accept everything and it will all be fine. Depends on what type of team, players, club you want, I guess.

My stress – and, by the way, I was responding to an earlier comment and did not ask for this to be a "thread", it was originally just a comment – is that anyone can say what they like but equally anyone can disagree and argue.

Me, that's me, my belief is I don't like fascists at my club; I don't like racist or horrible comments made by fans and if I hear them I will not pretend I didn't.

I recall many years ago someone saying "Why can't we be run like West Ham?" and I responded then about their pornographer owners and fans "hissing" at Tottenham games... but hey, let's not say anything.

Listen, answer my comments any way you want – it's called free speech – just like Tosun or anyone can support who he likes and make any gesture he or she feels they want to – but I can feel as free as I like to say I disagree and write on here a response. If you don't like it, don't read it – or MK, don't post such "utter garbage".

Got it!

Ray Roche
41 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:52:56
Sorry Thomas, we appear to have been at cross purposes 👍🏻
Thomas Richards
42 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:57:32
👍 No worries Ray.
Ray Roche
43 Posted 10/01/2021 at 17:57:56
Arguing amongst ourselves... is it lockdown?
George McKane
44 Posted 10/01/2021 at 18:00:54
No badness from me to any on here. As I said in my post, without you TW "nutcases" football would be nothing.

Take care.

Will Mabon
45 Posted 10/01/2021 at 18:06:28
I've not looked at the gesture, didn't notice it at the time.

I'd like politics, with their "Messages" and social influencing out of sport. However since and while they are in it, shouldn't all have the same right to make their point, and not the selected "Sanctioned" views. Free speech and all that.

Paul Hewitt
46 Posted 10/01/2021 at 18:16:50
Let's leave politics out of football. Tosun denied it, so that's the end of it.
Barry Rathbone
47 Posted 10/01/2021 at 18:56:20
Don't forget generally speaking we support governance by an Iranian who leans on a pal who got 6 years jail for various acts of naughtiness classed as gangsterism by some.

Putting our noses in the air about anything might be seen as hypocritical among Ken Dodd's hard-working Diddymen in the jam butty mines.

Perspective is always important.

Lee Mandaracas
49 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:04:17
Let's just clarify something. If we are not prepared to take Tosun's word for it that this was as sincere a religious gesture as it appeared to my eyes then we achieve two things.

1. The alienation and destruction of what must already be fragile confidence of one of our own players. And, far more importantly...
2. The alienation of any club who may have otherwise shown interest in a player we want off our books for the best price we can possibly muster.

What are we trying to achieve here?

Adrian and Maureen Ronan
50 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:25:59
In my abject disbelief at Tosun actually scoring a goal, I missed the 'alleged' hand gesture. We will just have to wait until he scores again to see if his gesture was real or unreal. That, unfortunately, could take quite a while so don't hold your breath.
Thomas Richards
51 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:27:41

Time to put this one to bed.

Jay Harris
52 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:28:27
George spoken from the soul as always.

Respect my man.

I once read a book by a certain philosopher (cant remember his name old timers is kicking in) who studied the downfall of all the great empires. Greek, Roman, Spanish, Byzantine and came to the conclusion that as affluence and wealth grew so did a lack of morals and scruples leading to corruption and anarchy.

I'm not forecasting Armageddon but can anyone say they are totally happy with the world as it is now. Young kids dying of famine in some parts of the world while some 21 year old is getting (I almost said earning) 100,000 a week to play a game.

Although I was brought up a catholic and educated by Jesuits I do not follow religion as I believe freedom of speech and belief is every individuals right and although education is a privilege brainwashing isn't.

Thomas Richards
53 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:32:00

Fantastic post.

Eddie Dunn
54 Posted 11/01/2021 at 15:34:46
Personally, I have been confused at the many religious signals by players coming on to the pitch. scoring goals, and leaving the pitch. I don't want to know their personal belief systems or any other non-football stuff.
I am frankly amazed at just how pious many of these boys are, maybe they have all become monk-like in their habits.
As for Tosun when he scored his real goal he seemed to do the usual looking up to the heavens at either his God or perhaps a grandparent and later when he scored his non-goal, the camera didn't dwell on him for long. He will score on Tuesday night to confound his critics and most likely he will do what they did back in the sixties, ad runs swiftly back to the centre circle with the odd handshake.
George McKane
55 Posted 11/01/2021 at 16:20:21
Jay - - appreciated - - not on this one for any personal gratification just responded initially to an earlier post - - I was brought up as a Catholic - - Christian Brothers Education - - but have not pursued religion since I was about 13 - - but I was a Buddhist for many years - - not religious - - meditation and spiritual - - like you I read philosophy - - I have heroes - - maybe silly for man of my age - - but I like to believe in acting in a certain way - - Primo Levi is a major hero - - many of his words in The Drowned and The Saved are embedded in my spirit - - never pretending not to hear racist comments even if it puts you under pressure - - similar with the marvellous and inspirational Victor Frankel - - "Mans Search For Meaning" - - my point - - maybe not stated clearly -- but was not about Tosun (who like many others who are aged over 12 or 13 and use those finger gestures like someone from Bill and Ted - - I can laugh at but also find really childish - - but as I kept repeating I accept their right to be silly/childish/immature - - as I respect my right to comment) - - The Man Who is Really Free Who Can say NO - - but enough - - let's move on and get back to footie - - it was football in general and it's sad decline into mediocrity I was commenting on really and all the paraphernalia - - all sounds clever but of course football is illogical - - I am an Evertonian like all of us - - that's why we are on here - - I was not preaching any philosophy to anyone merely making comment - - Up The Blues.
Steve Brown
56 Posted 11/01/2021 at 16:44:39
Good summary George @ 55.

Tosun has done the gesture for the Turkish national team, so he definitely meant it. We've never seen it at Everton as he never bloody scores.

Given we were playing Wolves next, that fire him up.

Jay Harris
57 Posted 11/01/2021 at 17:01:22
Bit of levity I wonder if we will wear a grey away kit against Wolves. LOL
Jay Harris
58 Posted 11/01/2021 at 18:44:51
Thanks Thomas. I always like to speak as I find.
Thomas Richards
59 Posted 11/01/2021 at 18:50:02
Me too, politely as you did.

It was more the content I enjoyed reading. Subject's close to my heart.

Andy Crooks
61 Posted 12/01/2021 at 18:52:21
So many players celebrations annoy me to an unreasonable extent. I think there should be draconian sanctions:
Cupping of ear, three match ban
Thumb sucking ten match ban.
Choreographed celebration involving more than one player. Points deduction for the club.
Line of players mimicking rocking a baby. Relegation of club.
Any type of dance that resembles the antics of that fuckwit former red Sturridge. Lifetime ban.
Let's get back to the slightly embarassed manly handshake.
Dale Self
62 Posted 14/01/2021 at 19:00:54
Jay, that might have been Paul Kennedy's book if it was a late 90s read.

If we could get this topic to the perspective of "what is the responsibility of a footballer to respect the fans of the club that employs them" it would be much more palatable. This is the old discussion of what does a public figure owe the audience that has supported them. Is the transaction complete at the gate and you get whatever or is there some justified expectation of publicly acceptable behavior?

Dale Self
63 Posted 14/01/2021 at 19:01:42
Actually I think that came out in the late 80s now that I think of it.
Ray Roche
64 Posted 15/01/2021 at 13:18:59

Have a biscuit. Go to the top of the class.
Really made me grin, before I realised that it’s probably a watered down version of the penalties I would dole out for those crimes against humanity. 😁

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