Reader Comments (126)

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Mike Gaynes
1 Posted 25/11/2020 at 17:58:28
Maradona has died.


Heart attack. Age 60.

Tom Bowers
2 Posted 25/11/2020 at 18:00:54
Sad to hear Maradonna died at the relatively young age of 60.

Whilst in his day he was a brilliant player, what has been reported since regarding his drug taking gives me reservations about how long he was using and whether it helped his game. Of course we will never know the answer and many people will not want to believe it but back in his day testing wasn't always done and when it was it was always suspect.

Jerome Shields
3 Posted 25/11/2020 at 18:48:13
Maradona was one of the greatest player. I remember Terry Butcher telling he confronted Maradona, towering over him, after the 'Hand of God game'.

Terry said nothing not speaking Spainish, but touched his hand and his head, looking at Maradona to respond. Maradona touched his head.

Christy Ring
4 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:02:04
Jerome, I wonder did Terry Butcher say anything about unwinding his legs after the 2nd goal. As for the Hand of God, why didn't Shilton punch ball and man?
Tony Abrahams
5 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:07:26
Bobby M, talking about world class, I'd say Maradona was in the VIP lounge, whilst every other world class player I have ever seen has only made it to business class!
Eddie Dunn
6 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:17:17
Maradonna was, in my opinion, the most talented player I have ever seen, but he was a cheat. If he had played for England and done that, I would have been disgusted. That handball taints his legacy.
Christy Ring
7 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:33:56
Eddie, cheeky to say the least, the handball, doesn't taint how good he was. The 2nd goal will always be remembered more, because of his sheer brilliance.
Will Mabon
8 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:35:57
The passing of maybe the best footballer ever to play the game, and certainly one of the strongest. His chaotic times off the pitch may have contributed to his early death. He lived a "Full" life for sure.

For a time in the '80s he was almost on another planet - in a period of excellent players all around. Unplayable and jaw-dropping in his prime.

Julian Exshaw
9 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:48:39
Shocked and very saddened at his passing. The first time I saw him play was when Argentina played Belgium in the opening match of the 1982 World Cup in Spain. There was an expectation every time he touched the ball.

In those days, players weren't as exposed to the media as they are now so there was a definite mystique about him and all South Americans in general. Great days and a truly great footballer.

John Cook
10 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:49:33
Agree with you entirely, Will, the best player I have ever seen. Great player who could take it as well as dish out the dirt.

So what if he handled the ball against England? He was fuckin' unplayable the whole of that game. Took a chance and got away with it... no difference to what we see every week regards cheating. Tierry Henry, anyone? Mo Sala?

Dennis Stevens
11 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:52:04
Hand of God has struck the hour.
Joe McMahon
12 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:56:31
Many players cheat and get away with it. It's fair to say one of Micheal Owen's many dives vs Argentina in the World Cup evened things out. No-one in the media questions the annual volume of penalties at Anfield and Old Trafford, or Owen in the World Cup.

Maradona was the most gifted player I've ever seen.

John Pierce
13 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:58:18
Best player ever to grace the field IMO. I like my legends flawed, and he was the epitome.

People often overlook his performance against Belgium in the ‘86 semifinals, I guess we, those being English, focus on the quarter-final. I thought that Belgium side were better than us and he ruined them single-handedly.

Always felt he'd leave us early, he blazed a path so fierce it seemed likely it would burn itself out.

Fran Mitchell
14 Posted 25/11/2020 at 19:58:29
After a long period holding the fort, God has finally stepped aside and allowed Diego Maradona to take the helm... all hail our lord Diego.

Maradona is quite simply the greatest player of all time. The handball is a mere footnote. While 5,000,000 Englishmen may harp on about it, Diego touched tens of millions more.

He represented much more. He was a genius on the ball, truly mesmeric. But he was also the first of his kind, his ascent occurred as the world of football and finance started crossing paths.

While today a young Argentine moving to Barcelona and Napoli may be part of the norm, back then it was new.

His ascent also occured at the same time as the ascent of Cocaine. So big money looked at Diego and thought, there's money in him. And these same people said so of the white powder.

He got caught in the crossfires, a young lad, from poverty and with immense ability. He got taken advantage of, got ripped to shreds... And, despite all this, he remained a legend.

His charm, his pride for his origins, he tattooed himself with Che Guevara, he proclaimed himself a Latin American and proud, he showed his passion and love for his club and his roots.

Diego Maradona, we were not worthy.

Danny O’Neill
15 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:06:12
Given his alleged lifestyle, I suppose something like a heart attack at a relatively young age was always on the cards for Maradonna.

Whilst some will bemoan his hand of God and label him a cheat, he was no more than most players who play for or take a chance on getting a decision.

Despite the illegal use of the hand, we often gloss over how a 5ft-4in player (or whatever he was) out jumped the 6ft Peter Shilton.

One incident in one game does not detract from the fact he was one of the best players to grace the game just because Eng-ur-land felt aggrieved. In the same game, he also scored one of the best individual efforts witnessed at that level.

For me, he doesn't / didn't quite top Johann Cruyff, but he is in the hall of greats.

Tony Abrahams
16 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:09:01
He got thrown out of a World Cup tournament for using a banned substance Tom, but I'm sure his body was ravaged by this stage, because of how much he'd abused himself, with his addiction to cocaine.

You never lose ability, but once you lose your natural fitness, I personally don't think it's ever coming back to its previous levels, ever.

Watching the newest documentary on Diego Maradona, 👏 it looks like his greatest days were over, once the Italians turned on him after Italia90?

Mike Gaynes
17 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:13:15
Fran #452, God just wanted his hand back after Diego borrowed it.

It's a debate that will go on forever, but I rank him 3rd all-time, behind Pele and Messi.

Danny O’Neill
18 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:18:22
Yes Tony, ability is always there. I often wonder how good Rooney could have been had he led a different lifestyle and maintained fitness levels.

I know it's a bit of a cliche / populist argument, but he and Ronaldo were arguably at similar ability levels as teenagers. Ronaldo pushed himself physically and fitness wise. Wayne chose to rely on ability alone and his off field antics were questionable for a modern player of that calibre. Nowhere near Maradona both in terms of ability or accusation of what he has done but parallels?

Tony Abrahams
19 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:21:19
I'd have loved to have seen more of Cruyff, Danny, if you think he was better than Maradona mate.

His second goal against England was a thing of beauty, and to then repeat it in the semifinal against Belgium, was just sensational.

I don't think I've ever seen a player reach the levels Maradona reached during this tournament, and then what he done in Napoli was incredible, and also incredibly sad.

God bless Diego Maradona, I can't believe how sad I feel, with the passing of the greatest footballer I ever witnessed play!

Stan Schofield
20 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:27:10
Great player, in my opinion, 2nd only to George Best.
Danny O’Neill
21 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:27:24
I only caught Cruyff towards the end Tony to be fair. But for me, it was his impact on the game; how he changed it. When you are talking players of this calibre, you are totally splitting hairs. Diego like Johann was truly world class, which we too often label the latest Sky player of the month as these days.

There are very few in this league. Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Maradona.

Kevin Sheedy as well (he says totally tongue in cheek!!).

Tony Abrahams
22 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:36:34
I thought Rooney was the more talented player, Danny, but Ronaldo is arguably the most dedicated, and possibly the most self-centered footballer that's ever lived, and it doesn't half show because he's just got better and better with age.

I was told a man from Merseyside went over to Madrid to try and help get Ronaldo fit for the Champions League Final against Liverpool, on the request of the player. The man was a swimming coach (if this story is true) and he said whatever we think about the player (the fella was a red) he said the man is just incredibly driven.

Ronaldo apparently said to the coach that playing in the final wasn't an option, and if he had to stay in the pool for 12 hours everyday to make the game, he didn't have any problems with that!

Dave Abrahams
23 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:36:57
I loved Johann Cruyff, like Danny said, he brought a new style to the game and tricks, yet he is hardly mentioned when it comes to the very best, but he certainly was in that class.

Everyone has their own favourite with Pele, Messi and Maradona up there with Ronaldo and some others, mostly forwards. My own comes from further back in the fifties and sixties: Alfredo Di Stephano, who could play anywhere and lead the band in any team he played for.

Danny O’Neill
24 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:53:44
Rooney definitely had the talent and could have achieved so much more. How harsh is that considering what he did achieve?

I get the sentiment on Ronaldo's dedication. With football and the occupational hazard of being in the Army, I always considered myself pretty fit, but swimming and boxing training were brutal. Boxercise circuits in particular - the first time you do it, you are shocked at how hard and draining 2 minutes on a punch bag are!

Great call Dave - Messi will also be in that club when we look back in years to come.

Christy Ring
25 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:53:55
Maradona and Pele played when they were literally kicked off the field. When Maradona was playing for Barcelona against Bilbao, Goikoetxea, a Spanish International, fouled Maradona from behind, breaking his ankle, described as one of the most brutal fouls in Spanish history. He was nicknamed ' Butcher of Bilbao' which stuck with him for the rest of his career. He has the boot in a glass case on his wall!

Diego constantly played with cortisone injections, throughout his career, which probably fucked him up (excuse the expression). He probably won a World Cup on his own, which Messi never produced for his country, and Pele had fellow superstars at Brazil.

Tony Abrahams
26 Posted 25/11/2020 at 20:54:16
I've heard you say it before Dave, and again he must have been some player, and again like all the greats, who made us fall in love with the beautiful game!

Plattini, Zidane, and the great “willow the wisp” that is Iniesta. I love all aspects of football except cheating, (the hand of god is exempt, because Shilton should have took Maradona's head off!) but the greatest aspect is the skill, watching the magicians who look like they're talking to the ball!

Barry Rathbone
27 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:01:27
The last footballing genius.

Messi is good but not Maradona good.

Tony Abrahams
28 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:06:02
I'm with you on Rooney, Danny, but an aspect of life is that people change the narrative, and can start talking down because Rooney achieved so much.

We saw how good he was, and I'd genuinely argue that he never reached his full potential, such was the natural talent the kid possessed.

John Boswell
29 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:10:28
Dave @ 15 thank you for invoking my memories of Di Stephano, possibly my first heroic footballer. His skills amazed me.

Whilst I am drifting down memory lane I can glimpse a certain magician named Ferenc Puskas, I hope my spelling is okay. COYB.

Mike Gaynes
30 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:23:29
Dave A., amen, Di Stefano was magnificent from what I have read and heard. Wish I could have seen him play.

The best I ever saw in person was Cruyff -- unlike Pele and Best, he was still nearly at his physical peak when he came to play in the US, and I'd earlier seen him on a summer tour with Barca -- and the best I've ever seen on TV is Messi, but to me Pele still rules them all. Serie A games were rarely televised here in the 80s, so I rarely glimpsed Maradona for Napoli.

For entertainment, compare if you wish -- Diego against England and Lionel against Getafe. The similarity of the two goals is stunning.


Two magical little left-footers.

Dale Self
31 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:28:53
Sorry Diego, never really dug you because you were such a choad but, in the name of football, you were indeed great. Good mention of Goikoetxea there Christy.
Danny O’Neill
32 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:37:06
Totally agree, Tony.

With a biassed Evertonian head on, we always get excited and hopeful for the players that come through the academy.

But with Rooney, there was never doubt. Never talk of possible potential. At 16 years old, he made a blatant statement to the footballing world.

The only sad thing is, we are talking that he didn't achieve the greatness he could have, when he achieved a great deal.

He could've been on that list. That's how good I thought he could have been.

Paul Birmingham
34 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:46:53
RIP, Diego, thanks for great memories on the pitch, and you're up there with the very best players ever and a footballing genius.

Christy Ring
35 Posted 25/11/2020 at 21:50:54
John #29

Tommy Ring played against Puskas, for Scotland v Hungary, and scored. Just a bit of history for you.

Paul Hewitt
36 Posted 25/11/2020 at 22:08:14
If you take drugs, it catches up with you.
Eddie Dunn
37 Posted 25/11/2020 at 22:42:18
Danny @15, the one incident you are happy to overlook is terrible, and the only thing I could say in his favour is that maybe he thought it would be spotted and disallowed, so he thought in the heat of the moment, "Why not"?

Oh and that "Engur-land" team that you seem to despise, contained Peter Reid, Trevor Steven, Gary Stevens and Gary Lineker.

Tom Bowers
38 Posted 25/11/2020 at 22:56:30
Sorry but I disagree about him being the best ever.

Quite honestly as far as strikers go there have been many as good if not better for different reasons.

Messi, Best and Thierry Henry come to mind not to mention Rooney and Ronaldo.

These guys have scored many of the best goals I have ever seen at the highest levels.

Christy Ring
39 Posted 25/11/2020 at 22:57:20
Eddie #37,

In all fairness, if your still bitter, blame Shilton, he should have cleared man and ball, as I said earlier.

Will Mabon
40 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:00:29
Funny that a player of such quality brings posts of quality too. Sticking as I always will to Maradona being the best I ever saw (so far, who knows in the future), we are talking small margins at this level.

It occurs to me that strikers and finishers have the extra glamour bonus, and there are defenders, midfielders, keepers that may be judged by their own criteria when talking of the "Best footballer" overall. I simply think Maradona's shear impact was unrivalled.

I agree with others that Rooney had even more than we got to see, had things been different. Wow, that kid...

Cruyff... the superstar of the '70s in much of my time at senior school. Strangely often overlooked today. All effortlessly performed while reputedly smoking 20-plus cigarettes a day!

Danny – it's not so wildly tongue-in-cheek. Sheedy never quite had the power and presence to be at this level but did he ever have natural ability. Went so under the media radar in the day; at least we kept hold of him!

Andy Riley
41 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:04:36
Danny #32. I agree with you completely about Wayne Rooney. Remember the Youth Cup Final against Villa. Rooney and ten others (who no-one now remembers) – he'd single-handedly got them to that final. He was four or five marked throughout!

Then the goal against Arsenal!

Imagine we had him at that age now in the Moshiri era and we'd built a dynasty around him!

Will Mabon
42 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:10:19
Eddie @ 37,

I agree re. Maradona "Chancing his arm" in that game vs England, his initial celebration run was slightly muted and unconvinced 'til he knew the goal stood. He later said something along those lines.

Jack Convery
43 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:11:37
I think we need to take into context that he played in a time when defenders could kick the shit out of forwards every game. On his own he dragged a no-mark team, Napoli, to two League titles – they had never won one before or since.

He also won a Uefa Cup with them too. In 1986 he practically won the World Cup for Argentina. He was almost certainly having cortisone injections for several years during the late 80s and into the 90s, so he could play.

He was never given a moments peace whilst at Napoli or in Argentina. Is it any wonder he went off the rails. A genius on the pitch and gave millions a great deal of pleasure and pride and not to just those in Naples and Argentina.

An Icon with a flawed personal life. Sometimes the price of fame and adoration can be very high and for Maradonna as with George Best it was too high as it robbed them of a long life but not of being a Legend, a proper real Legend.

The 2nd goal against England in 1986 still lives vividly in the memory and I reckon always will to those who witnessed it live.

Will Mabon
44 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:12:02
Mike @ 30,

it is strange, almost spooky...

John Pierce
45 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:14:04
Really this isn't down to the amount goals or the volume of assists. Maradona scored beautiful goals, he inspired others to do more. He orchestrated lesser players to perform to their maximum to allow him to win it for them.

His unmatched influence on games is where his genius lies, only Cryuff in my estimation matched him for charisma – even if he actively pissed his teammates off!

Patrick McFarlane
46 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:18:27
Watching the 1986 World Cup at home, Maradona provided some moments that made the hair on the back of my neck stick up, he almost single-handedly – no pun intended – won that Tournament. His goal against England, the legitimate one, was special but I thought his brace against Belgium were moments of pure genius.

As an aside, the first time I ever heard mention of him was back in circa 1981 when a Leeds United fan who I worked with told me that the Argentinian was signing for Everton. Of course, he was using his Yorkshire wit to wind me up – but ever since I have wondered what would have happened had he have come to Goodison.

Far from an ideal role model but his footballing talent was beyond question.

Will Mabon
47 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:26:18
"The 2nd goal against England in 1986 still lives vividly in the memory and I reckon always will to those who witnessed it live."

Rare moments. Watching Ben Johnson in '88 felt the same – though that ended in a different way.

Brian Wilkinson
48 Posted 25/11/2020 at 23:45:41
Great player yes, not in the same class as the best of them all though, Pele.
Kieran Kinsella
49 Posted 25/11/2020 at 00:05:33
Christy Ring

To your point, years ago I saw a piece about the evolution of diving with Maradona and Klinsmann as pioneers. They showed utterly horrific footage of “tackles” on Diego back in South America, Spain and Italy. One after another they made Son's tackle on Gomes look soft. Time and again, the ref played on.

Eventually the penny dropped and Diego made a meal of tackles just to survive. Funny thing is, back then, we said he dived for dramatically landing after being clobbered. Now we say “he deserved to go down” when there is no contact.

Mike Gaynes
50 Posted 25/11/2020 at 00:09:45
Will #44, I remember I how freaked out I was when I saw Messi's goal -- it was like a flashback. Later that day Univision played the two side-by-side on a split screen. Same general starting location, same ending location in the box, same elapsed time from first touch to back of net (12 seconds), same number of defenders beaten, same number of touches (12) -- amazing.

The only differences were that Maradona started his move with a pullback, and Messi finished with his right foot while Maradona went with his left.

The commentator called Leo "Diego Armando Messi."

Kieran Kinsella
51 Posted 26/11/2020 at 00:20:45
Other than Ray Wilson in 1966, Maradona is the only player to have single-handedly won the World Cup.
Derek Thomas
52 Posted 26/11/2020 at 00:30:55
The Greatest of All Time is always going to be subjective... and not only unmeasurable, but unprovable too. The fact that there are 8 or 10 candidates just on here more or less proves the point.

When people are picking 'The Best 11 in the World - Ever' Maradona is going to be in the squad... which is as it should be.

Christine Foster
53 Posted 26/11/2020 at 00:43:40
There is no doubt his ability made him a place at the top table of footballing greats. His skill led to the brutal thugs of football effectively trying to permanently cripple him, as they tried with Pele, Best etc.

I am so glad these days have seen the almost elimination of the thuggery of football. His personal life saw him out of control, drink and drugs and a hedonistic lifestyle.

I cannot confess to liking him, but I acknowledge his impact on Argentina and world football; skill profound – like a flawed diamond.

Mike Gaynes
54 Posted 26/11/2020 at 01:28:51
Kieran #51, Ronaldo would like a few words with you.
James Flynn
55 Posted 26/11/2020 at 02:20:36
Amazing he lasted until 60. Like 10 other guys combined making it to 90.

He's a worldly no doubt. Anyway, I'm taking Brazilian Ronaldo, the single most thrilling player I've seen.

And the disparaging comments about Rooney are laughable.

Kieran Kinsella
56 Posted 26/11/2020 at 03:36:21
Mike 54

Is he not a Ray Wilson fan? lol

Frank Wolfe
57 Posted 26/11/2020 at 03:41:49
Definitely recommend watching the Diego Maradona documentary film. Shows both sides of this amazing man as well as all of the forces pulling him in different directions.
Mike Gaynes
58 Posted 26/11/2020 at 04:14:53
DT #52, challenge accepted. Here's mine (9 of whom I actually saw play and two by reputation):

F - Pele
F - Ronaldo
F - Muller
M - Maradona
M - Messi
M - Cruyff
M - Di Stefano
B - Baresi
B - Beckenbauer
B - Maldini
G - Yashin

If it were players I actually saw, sub in Cristiano for Di Stefano (drop Pele back to midfield) and Buffon or Sepp Maier for Yashin.

Darren Hind
59 Posted 26/11/2020 at 05:30:14
We can all have our favourites, but I don't think you can compare all-time greats. They all have their own unique qualities. Maradona was right up there. Pele too. As was George Best. Messi, the Ronaldos, Beckenbauer. Cruyff.

I love listening as to why people rate their own favourites. My old German boss used to say Gerd Muller always stayed out of the arguments between the many world class players of his generation. "He simply settled them". He'd say

Rip Diego Maradona. What a player!

Mike Gaynes
60 Posted 26/11/2020 at 06:16:41
Darren, that's a great line about Der Bomber.

I played semipro back in the 80s with a guy whose dad had marked Muller once in youth football. The dad described Muller thusly:

"That little guy couldn't shoot worth a damn. All six goals he scored on me that day were from inside eight yards."

Derek Moore
61 Posted 26/11/2020 at 06:22:32
My Dad saw Pele, Beckenabuer, Best, Law, Keegan, Van Basten and more. He says the little Argentinian was the best out of all of them, and that's good enough for me.

The 1986 World Cup was one of my earliest and most vivid football memories. Football almost needed the Hand of God to take some of the gloss from the greatest world cup tournament by one man ever.

Maradona was so very flawed as a man and as a person, but a football pitch has never seen one man so accomplished as he. Fifteen years to the day we lost another flawed genius, in George Best, football sadly has to do it all over again.

RIP Diego. Those fortunate enough to have seen you play will never forget you.

Steve Shave
62 Posted 26/11/2020 at 07:18:10
The greatest player ever born... end of.

A sad day – but not a totally surprising one; he lived a 100 lives. RIP, Diego.

Jack Convery
63 Posted 26/11/2020 at 07:57:02
I am surprised that Zinedine Zidane has not got a mention on this thread. He was wonderful to watch and scored great goals and important goals for club and country. He also laid out Matterazzi!

Of the players I saw play, my XI would be:

Southall, Cafu, Baresi, Beckenbauer, Maldini, Messi, Zidane, Cruyff, Best, Maradona, Pele. Subs: Buffon, Roberto Carlos, Moore, Ronaldo and Muller.

Chris Leyland
64 Posted 26/11/2020 at 08:00:23
Watched the Maradonna 2nd goal against England in 86 again. Still prefer Jermaine Beckfords's goal vs Chelsea. 😁
Steve Shave
65 Posted 26/11/2020 at 08:21:25
Good shout, Jack, I loved Zidane. Mr Gaynes team looked amazing but very attack-minded. ;)

I would have thought Zidane would fill that central midfield berth very nicely indeed.

Stan Schofield
66 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:04:13
Jack @63:

Although George Best is my pick for the best player I've ever seen, Zidane is the best in terms of just the pleasure of watching his style. The ease with which he could control a ball and evade opposition players was just a pleasure to watch.

Steve Johnston
67 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:23:38
Guess his lifestyle took its toll. Not just the drugs and drink, he must have had all sorts of medical stuff going on throughout his career. Injections and what not. Second best player for me, Pele was the best. With Best, Cruyff et al just behind. Today's stars Messi and Christiano Ronaldo don't quite make the top for me, but they are up there.

As an aside. Watching Maradona's second goal versus England in Mexico 86. Is it just me, or does Terry Fenwick's last second lunge actually touch the ball??? Possible own goal for me!!!

Derek Thomas
68 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:47:35
Steve@ 67; I've often thought that... also, no matter how many times I watch that clip, I also wonder if Reidy will ever catch him... he ought to claim an assist.
Steve Johnston
69 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:53:04
Derek 68

Cheers. Me and my mate have been convinced (well, sort of!) about that for years.

Yes, pity Reidy didn't catch him. He might have had a 'word' about the first goal (haha).

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
70 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:56:12
Andy #41.

I have the ball from that match.

Must write to Mr Rooney and let him know. Only time he scored in an FA Cup Final.

Joe McMahon
71 Posted 26/11/2020 at 09:56:54
Jack, Southall in goal is a big call. My personal choice would be Buffon or Jennings.

Guys, we have to remember our manager has had Zidane in his team. Doesn't that sound good.

Sam Hoare
72 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:04:48

Are you playing Maradona as a wing back in that formation?! I like it!

Paul Smith
73 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:07:01
His 2nd goal against England was a thing of beauty, the drag back to start it was sensational and he was deceptively quick with the ball as well.

Mexico '86 was a great tournament, I think I'm right in recalling a big shadow looking like a spider in the Atacama stadium, it always sticks in my memory and Diego literally winning the fuckin thing on his own. No other player has had such an influence, for me, he was a one-man team.

Zidane was also up there some of his touches were out of this world.

Btw Joe, Carlotti might have drilled Zidane but, now he's got the legend Tosun, he's really stepped up a gear.

Brian Harrison
74 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:17:53
I think its impossible to say who was the greatest of all time, I was lucky enough to see Pele, Di Stefano, Puskas, Ronaldo and Best play in matches I attended, but didnt see Maradona live. They were all great footballers in their era and I suppose depending on the age of those making a judgement will mean different age groups will pick different players.

I think as someone else mentioned in another post the rules have changed so much, that the modern player gets so much more protection from the refs than the older players mentioned.

Dave Abrahams
75 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:27:17
For a gifted footballer, he sees more than the average player – the game slows down for them – the ball looks bigger and while everyone is rushing, lounging or over-reacting the great players are lying back, seeing the whole field and letting the game come to them.

This doesn't just apply to Diego but certainly fits him as one of the greats of football, in Argentina he is immortal. As a footballer he filled me with joy every time I saw him, only on TV unfortunately. As a man he burnt the candle at both ends and lived life to the full and went too soon.

Funny watching Peter Reid give his genuine regard of Diego as a footballer, funny because I speak very good Scouse but Peter speaks it perfectly, could teach it in Universities if it was a subject!!

John Cook
76 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:28:42
I would have thought Eusebio would get a mention. I was at Goodison in 1966 when he beat the Koreans on his own in the second half. e scored 4 if I remember correctly.

Hey, fuckin Requilme would have been the greatest if he had signed for the Blues... is he still at John Lennon Airport, waiting for the call, by the way?

Jason Li
77 Posted 26/11/2020 at 10:41:59
Saw a video clip of him from the kick off do a couple of kick ups and then volley from inside his own half over the keeper, maybe say 2 seconds into a game.

In the 86 World Cup, every squad played their best team... Argentina played Diego Maradona. There's no 'i' in team, but there is in Diego Maradona, and knowing his ability he just went ahead thinking: "I will win the World Cup."

What's amazing from video clips is how rough the play could get in the 80s, and also how much precision his every touch has, dribbling, trapping a ball out of the air and shooting from all angles.

Finally, the mentality to take on all the responsibility when going into a cauldron with TV cameras analysing everything and always, always stepping up to the plate and taking the ball off nervy teammates. Gosh, if we could've only had Maradona for one match in a Merseyside Dderby at full tilt... if only. RIP Legend.

Jay Wood

78 Posted 26/11/2020 at 11:34:01
A very nice piece on the Beeb this morning summing up the man well.

I thought I knew Diego. I knew nothing

His genius as a footballer is unquestionable. As a man, it is more complex.

Imagine always having to be 'on'. Always having to be Maradona and never simply Diego, the son, the brother, the father, the friend. The entire world wanting a piece of you.

Gracias por todo Dieguito.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
79 Posted 26/11/2020 at 12:36:03
Amazing that all our best ever are players from the late 50s and onwards when TV was around.

There was a guy who used to play for us. Scored goals for fun. Used to race in professional sprint races he was that quick. Pretty good in the air and I know there are photos of him passing on advice to Bob Latchford.

Somehow, because he played before war and days of TV he never gets a mention in these greatest players of all time. But given his records which were head and shoulders above the rest of his peers, he surely should be able to walk into the greatest ever team.

Andrew Ellams
80 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:06:37
At at time when players are actually lauded by commentators for cheating (earned a penalty, etc), I think it's time to let the 'Hand of God' thing go.

Will Mabon
81 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:10:46
Steve & Derek,

If you watch the low angle shot from behind the goal line, you will see it was Maradona that hit it. It's in the BBC article video that Jay linked to. The original version is a little clearer, if you can find it anywhere.

You'll also see it was Butcher with him, not Fenwick!

Brian Harrison
82 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:17:42
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts,

Yes, you very rarely hear Dixie's name mentioned but, because it was back in the 30s when he scored his memorable 60 league goals in a season, I guess many fans from other clubs aren't aware of his record.

I don't think Dixie's record will ever be beaten, but George Camsell must be sick as he scored 59 league goals for Middlesborough in the top flight only for Dixie to pip him by 1 a couple of years later.

Another who doesn't get enough mentions when talking about British strikers is Jimmy Greaves; he still holds the record for most goals scored in the top flight – 357 goals in 516 games; of these, 29 were penalties.

When you put Shearer's Premier League record against it, then it shows what a great striker Greaves was. Shearers record is 283 goals in 559 games of which 56 were penalties. So Greaves scored 74 more goals in 43 games fewer than Shearer.

Will Mabon
83 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:18:01
Phil, I guess it's because we never actually saw him play with our own eyes, unlike the other players mentioned here. Doesn't mean we're not aware. His record and the legends passed down say it all though, and I wouldn't say he never gets a mention, one of the most oft mentioned old Evertonians!
Patrick McFarlane
84 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:24:37
Tut tut Brian # 82 it was during the back-end of the roaring 20s that Dixie claimed that record breaking sixty league goals in a season - 1927/28 to be precise, however, he was instrumental throughout the 1930s for Everton so you're forgiven.

It's hard to believe that in 8 years time it will be the centenary of Dean's magnificent achievement and Goodison won't be the place where it's celebrated, unless of course the Bramley-Moore stadium doesn't get built.

Dave Abrahams
85 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:32:09
Brian (82), I think George Camsell scored his 59 goals in the Second Division.
Dennis Stevens
86 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:33:47
I thought George Camsell's 59 for 'Boro was in the 2nd Division the season before Dean's 60??

Btw, all these great players named & not one mention of Robin Friday!?!?!?!

Danny O’Neill
87 Posted 26/11/2020 at 13:54:38
Eddie, I didn't say I despised England. And yes that team contained a number of great Everton players but they weren't representing Everton.

Look, I've never cared too much for the England brand, so that incident didn't bother me as much as it seemed to have outraged a nation for decades. Some one put it better above; time to let it go.

There are probably a number of reasons behind my apathy towards England, so I'll share. Personally I've always felt it is a brand predominantly owned by the south east and southern media with a rather sinister supporter culture tagged to it. Additionally, I spent part of my childhood in Germany, following them and Holland as much as England on the international stage (note followed, not supported). My first and only live taste of England was away in Luxembourg in the early 80s. A terrifying experience; for most of the match, pockets of West Ham, Chelsea and Millwall fans goading and even fighting amongst each other. After the match, complete rampage on the streets as the supporters decided to teach those well known aggressors (yes Luxemburg) a lesson by trashing their city and turning over cars. Now living in London, I see traces of that loutish culture surface when I watch England in pubs down here. Although nowhere on that magnitude, it creates a very unpleasant atmosphere in which to watch football. Apologies, that's where my cheap "Eng-ur-land" shot came from.

Finally, I've never really felt the England thing too strongly growing up. I'd be interested in others' view as this is just mine, but never really felt it was a thing in Liverpool. But maybe that's also down to me being a "UK mongrel". One side of the family being 2nd generation Liverpool Irish (the type who still affiliate with the old country) and on the other having a Northern Irish Grandfather married to a Scottish Grandmother.

Long winded, but hope that explains. My throw away comment was better explained above - it was one handball; let it go!

Last point and back on topic, some great examples on here. It seems that a genuinely world class player can unite opinion Those mentioned here were all unique but what bonds them is how they stood out from the rest in terms of their footballing ability.

John Keating
88 Posted 26/11/2020 at 14:02:15

Have to agree. The England thing has never got me.

I'm only interested if we've got someone playing – apart from Pickford!

Jay Harris
90 Posted 26/11/2020 at 14:55:21
I used to be in and out of Napoli regularly when Maradona was there and they considered him a god, unfortunately that is also the place where the drug gangs got into him and effectively "killed" him.

I didn't like "The hand of God" thing but most South Americans seem to have the belief that it's okay to cheat.

Having seen the likes of Pele, Best, Charlton, Messi and Ronaldo (and my dad would include Duncan Edwards in that debate), it is difficult to say who was the best because we are looking at different periods of time but suffice it to say Maradona was up there with them.

Just on the subject of Dixie, we should remember he actually scored 85 in that season of which 60 were in 39 league games.

Brian Harrison
91 Posted 26/11/2020 at 15:22:19
Dave Abrahams & Dennis Stevens

Apologies, guys: Camsell's goals were in the 2nd Division.

Bobby Mallon
92 Posted 26/11/2020 at 15:30:36
My favourite player was Ronaldinho ( just my favourite) not saying he was the best ever but I loved his skill
Roger Helm
93 Posted 26/11/2020 at 16:57:37
Other top players were surrounded by other really good players – Cruyff for Holland, Pele for Brazil, Best at Man Utd, Messi at Barcelona – but Maradona won World Cups for Argentina and Seria A for Napoli almost single-handedly, and during a period of amazingly violent defenders.

For that reason, for me, he is just above those other great players, despite his chaotic personal life. As for cheating, this is so normal now, you could say he was just ahead of his time!

Mike Gaynes
95 Posted 26/11/2020 at 17:16:59
Jack, Steve & Stan, agreed on Zidane. The word that always came to mind was "elegant"... it was in everything he did.

I saw that same incomparable elegance in another player who probably would have been on everyone's list had his career not been hacked into oblivion at age 28: Marco van Basten.

Jay, that is indeed a brilliant article.

Kieran Kinsella
96 Posted 26/11/2020 at 17:17:18
Roger @93,

That's my thing. Valdano was past it in '86 and the next best player was Nantes sub Burruchaga. People compare him with Zidane but he had Henry, Viera and Desailly. At club level he had the likes of Figo and Del Pierro. He didn't look so hot at Bordeaux surrounded by Burruchaga types

Danny O’Neill
97 Posted 26/11/2020 at 17:32:14
Zidane. There's a shout. He is up there. To use Dave's earlier analysis, great (not good) players slow time and see things different, which enables them to make decisions differently.

Decision-making differentiates between the good (also rans) and the greats when you are talking at this level. Zidane has a good claim to be considered, in my opinion.

Andrew Ellams
98 Posted 26/11/2020 at 18:29:14
Zidane is the most complete midfielder I've ever seen although a certain Mr Gascoigne could easily have reached those levels but Maradona was another rung up the ladder than even Zidane.
Roger Helm
99 Posted 26/11/2020 at 19:12:13
The great players are those I think who get you out of your seat, going “Wow!! How did he do that!” You feel lucky just to have seen it.

Zidane I think is in the second tier of top players, the likes of Beckenbauer, Charlton, DiStefano, John Charles, Cristiano Ronaldo, Platini, Tom Finney, Puskas, among others.

Brian Wilkinson
100 Posted 26/11/2020 at 21:21:20
What about Stanley Mathews? Players are whinging about playing two games a week, Mathews probably did a shift down the pits before turning out for his team...

Okay, maybe not down the pit, but that guy played until he was 50 years old, on a diet of beef dripping, a pint of Guinness, and playing with steel-cap boots on pitches that had little or no grass on at all. Think of the old Baseball Ground for how pitches were back then to get a general idea.

Mathews and Dixie are ones who normally do not get as much a mention as the ones throughout the sixties and onwards.

Still no shout on here for Alan Ball.

Andy Crooks
101 Posted 26/11/2020 at 21:26:48
The response of the media today is truly desperate. All about England. Peter Shilton was particularly lamentable; cutting a specially shambling, sad, bitter figure. He was at fault for the goal, for fuck's sake.

He wished he had been able to discuss the incident with Maradona, to draw a line under it. I suspect that Maradona drew a line under it by the time England kicked off. I also suspect that had he been asked to meet Shilton, a reminder of who exactly he was might have been required.

Danny O’Neill
102 Posted 26/11/2020 at 22:13:50
I kept meaning to add. Even though this is an Evertonian site, no mention whatsoever of a Liverpool player, myself included. I like to think myself unbiased when I step back and think of the greats of the game. Despite their dominance as the best team in Europe and arguably the world at times throughout my childhood years, I can't think of one I would put in that category.

Dalglish maybe but I would say the best British player I've seen. Scholes the best English from United's But neither on the scale of Cruyff or Maradonna.

Michael Kenrick
103 Posted 26/11/2020 at 22:27:17
Danny, you're right: this is an Everton site.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if this was one of the few places where we didn't have to read about them every day? Now that would be great!

John Keating
104 Posted 26/11/2020 at 23:10:14
Alex Young, Roy Vernon, Tony Kay and Alan Ball. Everyone else was second rate.
Danny O’Neill
105 Posted 26/11/2020 at 23:40:02
I'll get my coat and have already ordered the taxi, Michael!!
Dick Fearon
106 Posted 26/11/2020 at 23:49:17
Earlier mentions of Puskas reminds me of the two times I met him and discovered what a genuine humble bloke he was.

The first time, and I kid you not, was in the old pre-renovated Abbey pub at the top of Tetlow Street.

There was a night game at Goodison and with the usual crowd, I was enjoying a pre-game bevvy when one of the lads raised a chuckle of disbelief when he said that a bloke in the snug was the dead spit of Puskas.

Out of curiosity, I took a peek and, sure enough, enjoying a pint was the great man himself. His companion turned out to be Archie Ledbrooke, Daily Express sports editor.

Both gentlemen were in good humour and shared in a brief but cheerful banter. Sadly, a few years later, Archie died in Manchester United's Munich air disaster.

About 30 years passed and, on a pre-season tour of Western Australia, Ferenc brought his A-League side to our small country town of Bunbury.

In this isolated outpost of our game, this turned out to be a tremendous boost. Ferenc's rapport with local media and all he came in touch with was great. He and his squad of players spent most of the day in the blazing sun, holding clinics for hundreds of kids who came from hundreds of miles away.

Though Puskas must figure on any list of the game's greats, I will not dispute anyone's choice of who was best. I would definitely have Ferenc at the top of my personal list.

Derek Moore
107 Posted 27/11/2020 at 06:25:40
Great story about Puskas.

For what it's worth, I thought Peter Beardsley was great for us. And I know the arl fella loved both Beardsley and another former barcode/RS Kevin Keegan in his pomp.

I suppose the passage of time helps these things. I've fond memories of Zola and Bergkamp at their best, but nobody really compares in my mind to Maradona, Gullit, Platini, Lineker, Van Basten, Michael Laudrup and the other greats playing when I first fell in love with the game as a kid.

As an aside, the public demonstration of grief in Argentina is just unbelievable. The connection Maradona enjoyed with his countrymen certainly goes beyond football... England certainly didn't react to the sad passing of Alan Ball or Bobby Moore with the same level of emotion! This man was as close to a god to the people of Argentina as perhaps any man has been before or since. Remarkable.

Brian Wilkinson
108 Posted 27/11/2020 at 12:43:33
There are calls to retire the Number 10 shirt throughout Europe.

Sigurdsson started the ball rolling a few seasons back, retiring the Everton Number 10 shirt.

Tony Abrahams
109 Posted 27/11/2020 at 13:52:41
I hate all this talk about retiring shirts, it should be about inspiring more kids to be worthy of wearing the number imo. Although I take your point on Sigurdsson, Brian!
Brian Williams
110 Posted 27/11/2020 at 13:57:18
Agreed Tony. Wouldn't be long before numbers 1-11 were all gone!
Danny O’Neill
111 Posted 27/11/2020 at 17:25:24
Never retire a shirt. It should be an aspiration to wear it.

Everton's Number 10 won't be tainted in my opinion. Paul Bracewell. That's what I think when I think and Everton Number 10.

Paul Jones
112 Posted 27/11/2020 at 18:31:02
I think that the Number 10 shirt should not be retired because you would want future players to match the greatness. Maybe when teams have had revered players they could reserve the shirt for worthy recipients.

On a separate issue it always annoys me when the Number 9 shirt is given ownership to Newcastle United by the Northern press and wider English media. I've always been miffed that Everton do not sell a Dixie Dean Replica FA Cup Number 9 shirt, him I believe being the first to wear the sacred number, followed by some other greats.

The Number 10 jersey is most commonly associated with Pele so it would be premature to retire it from all football. I would suggest that should be a consideration for Argentina and the clubs Maradona played for.

I also remember reading that George Camsell felt he held the true scoring record because he did not score from the penalty spot. Great individual achievements tend to be of their time but great sports persons transcend the moment and that is why they are heralded.

Patrick McFarlane
113 Posted 27/11/2020 at 18:44:02
Paul #112,

On the back of your post regarding Dixie and the Number 9 shirt, I wondered who first wore Nine for England... It turns out it was Ronnie Allen in 1953-54. As far as I can tell, Allen only made 5 appearances for England:

England Number History

Ian Riley
114 Posted 28/11/2020 at 00:55:20
Maradona was one of the top 3 footballers to grace a football pitch. One mistake should never blight your career. For many may never forgive him.

He played with no protection from referees. He was kicked hard as a player and pain must have been an issue but he loved football. His passion and drive was there to see.

Maradona showed us all we are all human even with fame and fortune.

RIP, Sir, and thank you for the memories.

Don Alexander
115 Posted 28/11/2020 at 02:52:10
When it comes to stats Puskas is incredible, absolutely incredible. Yes he played for fantastic teams at every level but he was a goal-scoring machine, the nearest I'd imagine to Dixie.

Retiring shirt numbers is bonkers and way too sentimental. Tomorrow another legend will appear.

Cue Dominic Calvert-Lewin!

Paul Ferry
116 Posted 28/11/2020 at 06:07:07
I'll never forget the hand of God.

I watched it at The Well in Derwent College, University of York. Dead proud of all the blues in the team/squad (I was usually just called 'Everton'; I was at all the games that mattered).

But having opposed the Falklands War, living and learning in anti-Thatcher Liverpool, and picketing at Selby for much of my first year at York, was, quite frankly, not unhappy when the hand scored to give 'ordinary' Argentinians some sort of triumph after Thatcher's disgusting Mussolini/Abyssinia replica war to celebrate her Britannia and save her evil neck at the election.

I've always thought of Diego's hand as payback for Thatcher's the sun never sets on the empire war.

I'd rather have an astute 'cheat' who hands in the air admitted it than Thatcherite England and its army of supporters who perpetrated countless injustices.

I did feel very sorry for Reidy though.

Tony Dunn
117 Posted 28/11/2020 at 09:26:20
Bobby Mallon @92,

My wife would agree with you, never been to a football match in her life so I took her to the Nou Camp to see Ronaldinho play against Getafe. They only won 1-0 but he got sent off after 10 minutes, so we had to go back to see them play again. We'd nearly gone to see Barnet play the week before...

Patrick McFarlane, wasn't the Argentinean Sabadella? I think he ended up in Sheffield

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but Reidy once said "I should've just kicked him up in the air as Diego started that run".

RIP, Diego

James Marshall
118 Posted 28/11/2020 at 10:10:52
The King is dead, long live the King.

I found myself strangely choked up midweek when this news appeared. One of those odd events where someone who you've never met dies and you feel it. Strange one.

As a huge Maradona fan, to me he was the greatest to ever play the game by a country mile – a moot point of course, and there is in truth, no 'best' of all time, only your favourite players. That's the difference I suppose.

The handball goal – blame the officials not the player. Lineker would be hailed a hero for doing the same thing.

Diego changed lives, changed cities, attitudes, a whole country, and the very game itself, in my view. As natural ability goes, nobody can touch him – though of course everyone has a counter-argument and nobody is right or wrong. I won't bleat on about his achievements at Napoli and with Argentina, it's all well documented without me saying it again (I sort of just did!).

As they say in Argentina – Diego Maradona, eternal.

Patrick McFarlane
119 Posted 28/11/2020 at 11:00:59
Tony # 117

No, it most definitely was not the Argentinean Sabella, although the trend at that time for English clubs to be interested in overseas players was the main reason that I fell – hook, line, and sinker – for the misinformation provided by my mocking Yorkshire mate.

Dave Abrahams
120 Posted 28/11/2020 at 15:11:59
Don (115), yes, Puskas I think he scored 84 goals in 83 games for Hungary, speaks for itself. Not to mention a wizard of a left foot and a great football brain.
Brian Wilkinson
121 Posted 28/11/2020 at 22:30:45
Talk retiring the Number 10 shirt worldwide is an absolute disgrace when one of the greatest Number 10s is still with us, the great Pele.
Danny O’Neill
122 Posted 29/11/2020 at 13:35:05
Just watched the Diego Maradona film on C4 catch up.

Films like that have you in 2 camps. Marvelling at the footballing genius and quotes such as "the small kid from a very poor area who liked to stir things up but wins" through to the genuine joy he clearly got through football. Then the sad deterioration of the individual as he succumbed to the influence and circus that followed him.

I often think it is easy to label modern footballers as overpaid and they should just get on with it. Yes, they are privileged as a result of their ability, but on the flip side they sacrifice some of the normal aspects of life they probably crave for.

Sad parallels to the George Best story.

Danny O’Neill
123 Posted 29/11/2020 at 13:43:56
It's not just that Brian, I just don't believe in it. A very modern concept and overly emotional reaction.

If Everton had retired the Number 9 shirt in 1980, then Grahame Sharp would never have worn it. Duncan Ferguson would never have worn it and Dominic Calvert-Lewin would not be wearing it now.

It's ridiculous. How about it inspires players to try and emulate those greats who have worn that shirt before them? That is more of a tribute than never having that shirt seen again.

Billy Roberts
124 Posted 29/11/2020 at 20:26:44
Danny @122,

I watched that documentary myself last night. I had been meaning to watch it since its release but, with his recent death, I had to.

It was an astonishing tale really, it was like some tragic opera (I'm not into opera but I think they in general have all of these facets: poverty, adulation, greatness, deception? Disloyalty, loyalty, victory, tragedy legend.) I'm not sure about cocaine but most probably the oldest trade!!

I am of an age to be nostalgic and also stunned to feel like what I was watching wasn't from my lifetime.

Maradona was arguably the greatest, I think only Pele and Messi can stand on the top step with him. The brilliant pitch level footage in this documentary gives you a better insight into his amazing balance, speed, strength and skill. As a footballer what else do you need?

Intelligence – he had that also. He was the best in his generation, a level above one of the best, Platini.

I think we also mourn a part of our youth when we lose an idol who we have idolised since our teenage times.

Danny O’Neill
125 Posted 29/11/2020 at 21:43:24
Absolutely Billy. You almost want to bottle that young Maradona jumping for joy and singing with his team mates in the changing room and remember that. Not the later more sinister aspects that inevitably crept in.

His balance was incredible; centre of gravity second to none with speed, skill and aggression to go with it. Not to mention athleticism and an ability to jump considering he was only 5 ft-5 in. I'm convinced Messi would never have been considered in England / UK as the young Iwobi was bigger and more powerful (forget the fact he can't play football). That's obviously tongue in cheek but not far off!!

My only disagreement with you and we are splitting hairs, is what I've said earlier, for me it was Cruyff. But then when you are talking those few players in this calibre, you are totally splitting hairs and will never agree on "the" best. They belong to a select club of true greats.

Danny O’Neill
126 Posted 29/11/2020 at 22:15:53
"When you are on the pitch, life goes away. Problems go away. Everything goes away". So true. Those who understand need no explanation!
Paul Hewitt
127 Posted 29/11/2020 at 23:03:22
Maradona was a fantastic footballer and it is sad he died. But people good at their jobs die every day, in jobs far more important. But they're not sports stars so nothing is said.
Danny O’Neill
128 Posted 29/11/2020 at 23:10:33
Very true, Paul, and as ex-military, I understand that.

I suppose not many of us mortals get to have an impact on the world as the likes of Maradona did through a sport that means so much to so many.

I'm not saying that is right and get your sentiment, but guess that's why there is emotion when famous people like him pass.

In fairness, a kid from the slums who started life with nothing and made a lasting influence on the world of sport through his god-given ability as a footballer.

Danny O’Neill
129 Posted 29/11/2020 at 23:15:05
Not wanting to open up old wounds, but Napoli won the Scudetto in 1987, the year Everton were crowned champions for the second time in 3 years.

Had it not been for the obvious, we may have seen Maradona play at Goodison.

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