Analysing the business done across the Premier League and a nod to the turn-around in the overall levels of the squad at EFC with such relatively small increase in costs
Against a backdrop of huge financial uncertainty, the transfer window has again thrilled and disappointed supporters in equal measure across the land. Perhaps, never before have the ambitions and the ability or willingness of club owners to pay for those ambitions become so apparent and laid bare as in this window and the complexities of Covid-19 football economics.
The headline figures show that Premier League clubs completed 396 transactions with a combined value of £1.45 billion. That compares to an average of £2.47 billion spent in the previous 4 years.
Although the Premier League window and most of the major European leagues have closed, the window with the English Football League remains open for domestic transfers up to 23.00 hours on 16th October, so it is possible that these figures may change.
Reduction in squad sizes
Whilst the headlines will be on what clubs have spent on players, the reality of the parlous state of football finances is that almost all clubs have looked to reduce their squad sizes. Of the 20 Premier League clubs, 17 have reduced the number of playing staff. Only Crystal Palace and two of the promoted teams, Fulham and Leeds United have increased numbers. Some of the reductions are quite startling:
|Club||In||Out||Change in squad size|
|Brighton Hove Albion||10||22||-12|
|West Bromwich Albion||8||10||-2|
|West Ham United||3||16||-13|
In most cases the reductions have come about through use of the loan market rather than sales. One of the features of this transfer market is the almost complete absence of sales of ordinary (journeyman for want of a better description) professionals and older players. I consider that there are two factors at play here – the absence of willing buyers even at reduced values and the inability of the moving players to maintain current earnings. The solution has been a number of loans with both clubs contributing to wages in line with the players’ existing contract.
The market for younger players, for established and influential players remained largely intact albeit with some evidence of reduced transfer fees. As a result a small number of clubs with significant backing from their owners have taken advantage as witnessed above in the Summer spend graphic. Chelsea in particular, have taken advantage of market conditions whilst Aston Villa, Leeds United and Sheffield United have received strong backing from their current owners. Everton I will cover later in the article.
Player trading profits
In recent years clubs have increasingly relied on player trading profits to support operating losses and provide funds for further player acquisitions. In an era of increasing revenues driven by inflationary broadcasting rights packages, player values have spiralled upwards. Whilst ultimately this leads to increased costs for the clubs (putting pressure on their profit and loss accounts), as long as trading volumes and values continue to increase then this presents no problem. Only if volume and values drop does it become an issue.
As we have seen above volume and arguably value have dropped this summer. Thus player trading profits across the Premier League drop accordingly. By way of comparison with the figures below, average player trading profits for selected clubs over the last five years are as follows (per annum): Chelsea £66 million, Liverpool £61 million, Arsenal £34 million, Everton £33.9 million, Leicester and Manchester City £29 million respectively.
The financial year for most clubs ends on 30 June, so clearly with the winter window and the beginning of the summer 2021 window still to come, the figures below are not final, but they do demonstrate the different financial climate and challenges all clubs face:
|Player trading profit this summer||£m|
|Brighton Hove Albion||13.8|
|West Bromwich Albion||4.2|
|West Ham United||10.2|
Regular readers will be familiar with my view that without increased debt, player sales or a significant contribution from Moshiri we would not be very active in the transfer market despite the arrival of Ancelotti and the clear need for strengthening the squad in key areas.
As the figures show there was little by way of contribution from player sales, but with the conclusion of several player contracts, two sales and several loans there was a significant reduction in wages through 12 senior players leaving the club permanently or on loan.
In terms of providing the capital for purchases, I am confident the 2019/20 accounts will show Moshiri’s further financial support (both before the financial year end and beyond it). For the all the justifiable criticisms of previous transfer windows and management selections, his continued financial commitment has been outstanding. Add to that the small matter of having Ancelotti and Brands heading recruitment and at last we perform in line with fan’s expectations and more than match the recruitment of all the leading clubs in the country. It has been an exceptional window so far.
A large concern for Everton is compliance with the Premier League profit and sustainability rules and in the event of European qualification, Financial Fair Play. I say that in the full knowledge that both are currently suspended. They will however, in more normal times, return and given the retrospective nature of the regulations will once more become relevant.
Additionally, if as we hope, we remain competitive for Champions League qualification or higher, I suspect the attitude of our competitors, particularly Tottenham and Liverpool (who appear to have the greatest influence at PL meetings) towards our compliance (or lack of it) will harden. It’s one thing overspending and not competing, but if we represent serious competition to the established order some form of kick back is in my opinion inevitable.
So I’ve looked at those that have come in and gone in terms of how does it impact our profit and loss account – by what degree will our transfer activity have added to existing losses? (Figures from multiple sources)
|£ millions||Fee||Contract length||Amortisation||Estimated wages||Total|
|Net annual cost (£m)||7.31|
The result is remarkable and a true testament to the negotiating and juggling skills of Marcel Brands plus of course, the pulling power of Carlo Ancelotti.
To achieve such a turn around in the overall levels of the squad with such relatively small increase in costs is remarkable. Those costs should easily be met by improved league positioning (each place being worth £2 million approximately), greater number of tv appearances, and the genuine prospect of European football in the future. Added to that the greater commercial attraction of a team with a strong South American presence and it is clear that the increased costs should be met through increased revenues.
Football continues to face many challenges ahead. Everton are not immune from those challenges of course, and still have to address major issues relating to costs, but with a much stronger squad, a world class manager and Director of Football plus an owner totally committed we are in a strong position to catch up on the pitch with those above us, and then to catch up financially.
It has been a tremendous summer for us, despite the difficulties arising from Covid-19.
Originally published at theesk.org but reproduced here by the kind permission of the author.
Reader Comments (144)
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1 Posted 07/10/2020 at 22:21:54
2 Posted 07/10/2020 at 22:25:47
Very heartened to see that a good season could more than pay for the improvement the investment has produced.
3 Posted 07/10/2020 at 22:34:58
4 Posted 07/10/2020 at 22:41:51
5 Posted 07/10/2020 at 22:48:29
Time to pop a Petra beer and read at leisure.
6 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:00:11
A great foundation to grow this season, and develope the squad and hopefully achieve success on the park.
7 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:04:46
As you said we have got to give it to Moshiri â€“ he has nerves of steel and an iron will.
8 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:09:39
So if I'm reading this correctly, admittedly Accounting for Dummies, we've offloaded a ton of players, therefore saving a ton on wages, and netting only a ٥.3 million shortfall. This shortfall is child's play and should be made up with a higher league placing.
I'd also add Moshri just shouldn't be criticized. Like never. He's seemingly backed the crap out of us with a hell of a lot of money.
My major concern, and I'm not sure if Paul or frankly anyone will know the answer?
After all the outgoings and silly good business incomings, what is our wages to turnover ratio?
I think that's the single largest indicator of any business being able to function. It simply has to be under 70%, or it's on the road to doom, or on the road to silly owner influx money.
Does anyone know that ratio after this window? I couldn't even begin to know where to look to figure it out.
Lastly, the reason I think this number is so important is down to the fact of trying to understand all of this. The only way I can attempt to understand is to try to view it through my experience. With my personal professional life, and owning a very, very small business with 5-6 employees, the only number I stay laser focused on is my variable payables to income (sales) percentage. It's so important when analyzing the profitability and sustainability of the tiny shit-show that is my business. I see the wages to turnover ration as a very, very similar barometer.
Just in case anyone asks why I'm so fixated on that percentage.
Paul the Esk â€“ thank you!!! I'm not near as worried as I was 24 hours ago. Concerned, but not worried. Thanks for taking the time to post this article it's extremely informative.
9 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:26:00
Brilliant, easy to understand article, Paul. For the players who've gone out on loan are you aware if we received a loan fee for any of them? Same the other way with Olsen.
10 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:45:17
11 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:47:04
12 Posted 07/10/2020 at 23:53:35
There is no doubt that, in the Premier League, clubs have to bring in players in the Summer transfer window to compete. The problem is a club needs the upscale in performance as a result. If there is no upscale in performances, then the manager has a problem. Such is the nature of the highly paid professional, a Club has to continually develop the squad.
This is where Liverpool are going to have problems this season. Chelsea and Man Utd managers season will be interesting.
13 Posted 08/10/2020 at 00:37:36
So the wages / income ratio should remain the same at best, or be worse.
14 Posted 08/10/2020 at 01:36:27
15 Posted 08/10/2020 at 01:37:30
Thank you for the excellent summing up of the changes and the amount of work you have put in to arriving at these conclusions.
It is all good news right now and hopefully this will give us the platform to regain our status as one of the "Big" clubs â€“ much to the disdain of the media and RS sycophants.
16 Posted 08/10/2020 at 01:43:45
Thank you for replying. I appreciate that info!
I swear to God I'm not "pissing on chips" but is anyone else then concerned with the wages to turnover ratio?
The last I heard it was around 85% or some astronomical number around there? For me, this absolutely must be addressed.
The business was fantastic, no question. But the operating profits have to be addressed, and that means the wage to turnover ratio has to come down a lot moving forward.
Paul, if you have a second, do you agree with that statement? Is the wage to turnover ratio alarmingly / suicidally high?
17 Posted 08/10/2020 at 06:01:17
"The result is remarkable and a true testament to the negotiating and juggling skills of Marcel Brands plus of course, the pulling power of Carlo Ancelotti.
[Everton] still have to address major issues relating to costs, but with a much stronger squad, a world class manager and Director of Football plus an owner totally committed we are in a strong position to catch up on the pitch with those above us, and then to catch up financially."
Who'd have thought?!
18 Posted 08/10/2020 at 08:31:28
Actually as Eric says, it seems that wages are down a couple of million per year... perhaps they will go lower if or when Bolaise and Besic are loaned out (although, if they were loaned out last season, maybe this is already built into the Esk's model).
I don't think this season is the one to worry about salaries to revenue as revenue is going to be temporarily depressed because of lack of gate money, but this will help us vis-a-vis others because our gate receipts are lower than most.
As long as Moshiri is covering the cashflow deficit (and doesn't provide loans which he then wants repaid), we are fine. If we finish a 6+ places higher in the league and get more TV exposure (both highly likely), we may find revenue for us is close to what it was last season.
19 Posted 08/10/2020 at 08:43:44
To my feeble brain, it doesn't make much sense without knowing the number of players coming in which, together with both the players going out (both sold and on loan), would give you the net change in squad size (plus or minus).
20 Posted 08/10/2020 at 08:43:54
1. The table on changes in squad sizes â€“ presumably players that were on loan last season were treated as not in the squad for the purposes of measuring changes in squad size?
2. Specifically, in the Everton table, you have Kenny and Pennington listed as incoming presumably because they were on loan last season. However, there is no mention of Besic, Tosun, LÃ¶ssl and Bolasie who I thought were on loan last season but are currently back on the books.
Similarly, you have Sandro as an outgoing but last season he was on loan, so maybe he shouldn't appear.
21 Posted 08/10/2020 at 08:46:55
22 Posted 08/10/2020 at 10:00:32
As always a very well researched piece, and put in such a way that its easy even for idiots like me to understand. With no crowds being allowed in any time soon, and clubs having to return season ticket money how do you think that will effect things going forward. As you rightly say Moshiri's financial backing has been outstanding, and as you also go on to say our FFP hasnt caused the top clubs to worry about it, but now as you predict the likes of Liverpool and Spurs may object more strongly about us than they did in the past.
I think this point is highlighted by the fact that with our excellent start to the season, Chelsea refused to let Tomori speak to us yet were quite prepared to let him go to West Ham on loan until the player turned down the chance. Also it was reported that Spurs and Man Utd adopted the same stance when we were interested in taking their reserve goalkeepers on loan.
I think if we could get into a Champions league place that would be a massive game changer financially. It would certainly take pressure off Moshiri having to pump even more money into the club, as everyone has their limits to how much money they will throw at a club before calling it a day.
23 Posted 08/10/2020 at 10:41:52
As soon as a side like Liverpool achieve their goal of winning the Premier League, the attitude of the top players changes. They are professional footballers who will want to capitalise on their success, as will the agents that represent them.
Some players will have enough motivation to push on in the subsequent season, but others will be looking to coast through. As the performance level slips, thoughts will change amongst players to maintaining their career momentum with a move to a Club that guarantees success. Klopp has made the mistake of not bringing in enough players to regenerate the side in this transfer window.
In the past under Shankly, I remember after winning the League, Liverpool fielding in the following season a younger side with added experience, with the same core system. This policy continued under Paisley. Howard Kendall did this as well, but a mistake was made signing Lineker, which interfered with the core system. Another problem is the contracts that were negotiated with top players that only took account of the immediate competition goal.
Next Summer, Ancelotti will make significant changes to Everton's squad, because he has had to do it so often to regenerate teams. As well as coaching ability, Ancelotti also has the ability to regenerate a squad.
Brands is now a deadwood expert and vastly experienced in dealing with players on long-term contracts whose performance is below the level required. He will also continue to develop the changes in youth development and recruitment he has in place already.
Ancelotti knows the key importance of doing so, and has won competitions in different leagues as a result. Everton may have sought out Ancelotti, but Ancelotti knew what he was looking for.
Everton are at the stage that they have bought and wore all the teeshirts.
24 Posted 08/10/2020 at 11:02:46
I'd like to believe your idea that some of their players will 'be looking to coast through' before moving to a club that 'guarantees success'. Er... that club would probably be Liverpool. Look at their record!
They are far too professional a club to not put in the effort every game. The results last weekend, Liverpool's and Man Utd's, were fluke results and won't happen again this season.
Yes, under Shankly and subsequent managers, Liverpool would strengthen their squad every year by buying the likes of Souness, Keegan, McDermott etc, and these players found themselves in the reserves for a season to learn their roles. The 'Liverpool Way' as we were told. Their reserves and first team played exactly the same way, the same formation, same tactics, so an injured left-back could be seamlessly replaced by the reserve left-back with no interruption to their style.
When we play them on the 17th, you can disabuse yourself of the idea that they will resemble the side so comprehensively taken apart by Aston Villa. Thiago, ManÃ© and Henderson will all be back and their pride has been battered. We're the best team they could have to play in terms of lifting their performance and they will be the worst team we could have chosen.
And our South American contingent, if they don't come back injured, will be knackered.
26 Posted 08/10/2020 at 13:08:37
It's not how much they spend, it's how many players they have to change. In Liverpool's case they needed to change more players. I wasn't taking the Aston Villa match into account In my deductions.
Covid-19 has changed the whole scenario regarding purchasing players. It was changing anyway, as Sevilla and Bayern Munich have shown.
I think Everton have already learned that lesson.
No prancing clown at the derby this season.
27 Posted 08/10/2020 at 14:16:03
What other players did they need to change or improve on? Christ, their second string dumped us out of the Cup!
Sorry, but I don't share the same degree of optimism that some on here do. Decades of â€˜not turning up â€˜ have destroyed my optimism mechanism.
And I am not normally so negative.
28 Posted 08/10/2020 at 14:36:32
29 Posted 08/10/2020 at 14:57:53
You don't think Liverpool have a massive psychological problem throughout the team after being dismantled by Aston Villa? I can't see them recovering from this all season, they simply looked dreadful last week and it was a system failure, rather than missing 2 players.
Our first 11, and I pray Allan and James will be fit and available, will batter them on 17 October. I have no doubt, apart from the margin of victory (4-1 or 4-0).
30 Posted 08/10/2020 at 15:55:09
'The results last weekend, Liverpool's and Man Utd's, were fluke results and won't happen again this season.'
Ohhh, go on Ray. Let it happen just one more time this season. Say...at Goodison on 17 October..?
31 Posted 08/10/2020 at 16:11:30
But imagine if we beat them. Cos if we do, the sky is the limit this season. Our recruitment over the summer is for the here and now, Carlo will be going into this game with the idea of winning it. Klopp and Liverpool hold no fear for him. Rodriguez is not going to be put off his usual game by sharing a pitch with Henderson and Fabinho. Who was the last manager we could say that about?
32 Posted 08/10/2020 at 16:15:57
I have been pessimistic for years, but Everton have a Manager and DOF who are doing the right things. I do expect Ancelotti to keep working going forward to improve consistency and player performance. He has already come a long way in developing players and has used the recent Cup games to give fringe players match time. Those that are not prepared to buy in are gone.
The team being built is young with a blend of under 30 experience. Klopp has built a team, but last year there was not the same competition in the Premier League or Champions League. In the Premiership a lot of Clubs are now struggling, not helped by Covid.
Everton, because of where they have to come from, have had to be addressing similar type problems since Ancelotti has started. A good job has been done of this, which has put them ahead of other Clubs.
Finch Farm I am glad to say will be a different place with a different attitude over these two weeks. Walcott has seen the writing on the wall and has willingly escaped. Great news from Finch Farm for a change.
33 Posted 08/10/2020 at 16:56:40
Unfortunately Andre, I think Liverpool are too â€˜professional' to get knocked very far off track by that result. I really do want us to batter them every time we play them but, although we stand a great chance with our current team, I don't expect them to roll over. I expect them to react to that defeat.
If only if only.
You're right, we are a different proposition now and I wouldn't swap any of our new acquisitions for Thiago but, and I pray that I'm wrong, I don't see us “doing a Villa “ on them. They will systematically and ruthlessly kick James off the pitch, taking it in turns to do so. I don't fall the amiable nice guy persona Herr Klopp likes to portray to the media. He'll use every underhand trick in the book to beat us from haranguing the ref to whingeing to the press beforehand.
And their secret weapon. Pickford.
34 Posted 08/10/2020 at 17:13:39
35 Posted 08/10/2020 at 17:23:26
I just hope Pickford can get his head right for the derby. Having said that, I don't see Olsen being an upgrade on Jordan. Goalkeeper is our Achilles' tendon right now.
Shame we couldn't have got Romero.
36 Posted 08/10/2020 at 18:41:16
Of course James will be targeted, but Everton have more players threatening now, so it is not that easy. Rodriguez is a player that is used to being targeted and like all player of that calibre, a marker can find himself chasing shadows if committed to making a tackle or suckered into a foul. I agree with you regarding Klopp, but he has problems with the present squad. What's more, he knows it.
Pickford is a concern and being dropped to England No 2 will affect him. I don't think Howard would have been much better, adapting to the goalkeeper role under Ancelotti. Which is a lot more demanding in what was expected of Howard during his comfortable tenure. I do think that Ancelotti in his talk with Pickford will address his current issues. As well as competition, Olsen will add experience and support to the goalkeeper team.
I too would have preferred Romero, but Man Utd didn't want to help the opposition. If he was a potential crock he would have been with us in a shot.
37 Posted 08/10/2020 at 18:53:30
He may yet regain his place when the Euro qualifiers come around.
38 Posted 08/10/2020 at 18:57:54
39 Posted 08/10/2020 at 18:58:14
I think Kevin was referencing Kendall not Tim.
Definitely not costing us a goal? Yeah, Neville didn't make obvious errors. But, his last 3 or 4 years he was morbidly obese and essentially useless unless the ball happened to be hit directly as his body.
40 Posted 08/10/2020 at 19:30:53
yes I think he was referring to Neville under his management.
41 Posted 08/10/2020 at 19:49:42
(Which is doing it twice this season!)
42 Posted 08/10/2020 at 23:24:10
I thought it was a qualifier. As you say, not that serious.
44 Posted 09/10/2020 at 06:16:11
Brands may have lightened the wage bill â€“ something he had to do â€“ but negotiating and juggling skills?
I acknowledge that quantity has been traded for quality, but Brands has offered every single person who has joined the club more than anybody else was prepared to. Yes, he got over a dozen players out of the door and off the wage bill but, in order to do so, he had to practically give them away. A "Greatie" street market trader could have done that much surely?
I don't buy this idea that Carlo has "pulling power" either. This club has always been able to draw the most coveted and most expensive. We only stopped doing it when Kenwright came to power. It wasn't that long before that we were able to see off serious opposition for the signature of Kanchelskis after he and Fergie fell out.
Carlo is not the "puller" â€“ indeed, he is one of the pulled, seduced by the same carrot dangled before the players.
People will always see what they want to see, but If Brands and Ancelotti are to be given credit for stuff they have actually done, it has to be something tangible. Something we can see... on the pitch. By giving them credit for improving the club's finances, we are taking it away from the guy who deserves it.
Farhad Moshiri has been slaughtered on here and just about every place else. There is no doubt he was incredibly green when he took the reigns of this club. His appointments have not always been wise. In fact, most of them have fleeced him.
The remarkable thing about Moshiri is he remains undeterred. He has sunk a small fortune into this club with very little reward, but he keeps throwing those darts at the board. I pray that Ancelotti and Brands eventually earn their praise and ensure this time Farhad has hit the bullseye.
I'll fess up at this point. I have been one of Farhad's critics... I originally thought he was here to make a buck but, If that's his plan, he isn't going about it in the manner you would expect from a smart accountant.
Thus far, he is one of the few who has actually earned the respect and love of Evertonia. A man who continues to sink huge chunks of his own personal fortune into the club many people believed to be a lost cause.
BTW, Paul, I may disagree with you on this point, but one of the primary reasons I log onto this site is because I want to be educated. You never fail to do that.
45 Posted 09/10/2020 at 07:21:24
I respect your view and analysis regardless and I am feeling buoyed and quite smug about your contribution. Seems like "the architect" and Moshiri are finally getting it right.
46 Posted 09/10/2020 at 09:31:38
You say you come on this site to be educated yet you continue to refuse the notion that Carlo has "pulling power".
I'll keep it simple for you:
There is no way in hell that James Rodriguez would be an Everton player if Carlo Ancelotti was not the Everton manager.
The epitome of "pulling power".
47 Posted 09/10/2020 at 13:22:08
Irrefutable proof that Ancellotti is a great draw for top players.
48 Posted 09/10/2020 at 13:31:34
As has been said, we were once a club with pulling power and that was lost under Kenwright but how things have changed. Long may it continue.
49 Posted 09/10/2020 at 13:32:34
50 Posted 09/10/2020 at 13:40:35
How very, very true.
51 Posted 09/10/2020 at 13:58:52
The critical decision by the owner is always the manager: get that right and everything else falls into place. Just look at the impact of Klopp on LIverpool. From pissing money down the drain, they now have the world wanting to pay them 㿅m for their reserves.
So I agree with Paul and Darren that credit has to be given to Moshiri for eventually getting it right but, like most Blues and James, we can see where the real genius resides.
He says football is a simple game, but as ever he is being very modest. I can't think of anybody else who could have effected the change on the walking zombie that was Everton in the summer to top of the pile in the Autumn.
52 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:04:42
53 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:10:26
I can't agree on Brands. I really don't rate him. I think he bought a bunch of expensive puddings that will be a real headache to shift in the future. He also fought like a tiger for Silva, if he had his way, we'd have missed the precious window we had to get Carlo.
54 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:10:44
This has been worth the wait. With ambition will come a few mistakes and missteps. I never agreed with appointing Sam and never will, but I'll accept it as a mistake as long as it is learned from.
There's no perfect chairman, manager or player, but there's plenty of ambition now and every so often you might just get what you're aiming for.
55 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:15:19
That's a joke, right? Moshiri took over four years ago and so far he hasn't made a penny in profit. I doubt he will make any profit in the next four years either what with the effects of Covid-19 and financing the new stadium.
I would think as far as his business interests are concerned Everton are a very small part and any profit will be small spuds next to his other business interests.
I think billionaires like Moshiri own football clubs almost as a hobby. A distraction from their normal business activities. Not to mention a chance to rub shoulders with famous players and managers and assorted celebrities. Then there is the satisfaction of being the owner of a successful club. Any profit is secondary to these.
Did the late owner of Leicester City buy them just to make a profit? He was as made up as any other fan when they won the league and it wasn't because he was thinking about any money he was going to make.
56 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:15:44
You can't repeat it often enough, how Mr Moshiri was fleeced by those he trusted, and should have been looked after much, much better, instead of being taken for the “goose that laid the golden eggâ€.
With “friends like those he didn't need any enemiesâ€.
He has saved this club and is getting us close to where we want to be, by using his own money to get us there. We should all be behind him, and his friend, hopefully, Mr Utd.
57 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:49:54
The whole scenario seems light years away from Bungalow Bill getting shafted by Man Utd over Rooney. Onwards and upwards.ðŸ˜
58 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:54:11
Just frustrating when you sit at the feet of the self-styled master and he tries to bamboozle you with fake news that has already been publically refuted by them as what ought to know!
59 Posted 09/10/2020 at 14:57:12
60 Posted 09/10/2020 at 15:41:10
About this point of owner investment and making money. The amazing trend, in the past at least, has been the escalation in value of Premier League clubs. I haven't made a rigorous study of this but, whenever I've looked to calculate the profit made by the likes of Kenwright, Woods, Gregg, Johnson... These guys knew what they were doing. The Return on Investment has been phenomenal. Espicially with standard interest rates falling so low.
Now will it continue with Covid-19? And with the cost of the new stadium? Always a tough question but just look at Man City... wasn't their recent valuation around half a billion? And what did the sheikhs pick them up for???
I suspect Moshiri needs to hang in for 10+ years and he will make a huge amount of money out of Everton Football Club. At least, that must have been the calculation he did, thinking that whatever extra he invested (players, managers stadium) would – with success on the pitch – be returned unto him many times over.
61 Posted 09/10/2020 at 16:10:52
1. The cost of a new stadium. City already had their stadium when they were taken over.
2. The cost of hiring and firing four managers in quick succession.
3. The cost of the wasted millions spent on the rubbish signings these four managers made.
4. The cost of hiring possibly the best manager on the planet on a long and extremely expensive contract.
5. The reduced income caused by the current pandemic.
If he has Moshiri must be the most far sighted investment genius in football. Much more likely is that he wanted to own a Premier League football club. He invested in Arsenal but he didn't have enough to be the biggest shareholder so he sold up his shares and invested in Everton instead. He now has his wish to own a Premier League outfit and he appears to be doing his best to turn his club from perennial also-rans into serious challengers for silverware regardless of the cost. In other words he wants what we fans want. Long may it continue. Maybe a lot more faith and a lot less cynicism is required.
62 Posted 09/10/2020 at 16:11:46
From memory, when LFC got planning permission in Stanley Park, the club's value pretty much doubled and that was the trigger for the Moores family's thickest scion to sell the club to the wrong buyers, for a bit more cash on top. It could be that my memory is at fault of course.
Not a bad return on something that came from his Uncle John and his Dad, for nothing.
Don't underestimate the impact of planning permission on the value, should it transpire. But you're right, hanging on longer term will mean the whole site and infrastructure will be redeveloped and that in turn could enhance the value further, as well as getting this virus out of the system hopefully.
I don't think we should begrudge Moshiri his return on investment,if it actually happens bearing in mind that this virus could have been a game changer and a crippler he's put his money where his mouth is, repeatedly. And has learned from his mistakes by the look of it.
It's what entrepreneurs do. Weigh up risk and reward, but the end game is always the sale.
63 Posted 09/10/2020 at 16:29:48
Kevin @53, I'm fine with the Brands comment, his performance before Ancelotti is not stellar. My point though was about separation of tasks. With Ancelotti, we can pick players Ancelotti wants because of his renown. Prior to that, we always get our business done last minute because it will be down to the last dollar we can throw at the agents. I seriously doubt Ancelotti wants to do the contract fine print, so Brands part of the process, and performance, should be where credit should go.
64 Posted 09/10/2020 at 16:35:19
I should also add that I suspect this scenario was also a driver behind the Kirkby fiasco.
65 Posted 09/10/2020 at 16:40:42
It's never been made very clear how much a certain person put into the club when he was involved in buying it. I would love to see the proof of it.
66 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:03:36
Just repeat that Ancelotti has never had player 'pulling power' often enough and vehemently enough and, well, it becomes a new reality. Or at least that is the hope, given we were also told ad nauseum that Carlo was past it as a manager and only here for a pay day.
But we are told he has now changed his approach and bought into the club, putting more trust in the coaches who were here before he joined. Happened in the short close season break apparently.
67 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:28:45
68 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:37:37
69 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:50:50
I was not going to bother responding to your truly bizarre notion that by giving me your less than informed opinion, you were somehow educating me...but you seem to want to keep it bubbling so I'll respond. First with my own opinon and then with a couple of facts.
Do I think James, Allan and Doucoure would have signed if they were offered the same terms and Silva was still manager ? Absolutely I do. They were all at a crossroads and this was the best or only offer on the table.
Do I think they came because Moshiri offered them a fantastic deal ? Absolutely.
Do I think they were drawn by Evertons history and tradition ? Yes. They ALL said so WITHOUT BEING PROMPTED.
Do I think they said glowing things about Ancelotti ? Yes. I know they did, but only after they were asked by the reporter if he was a factor. They hadnt mentioned him before.
Do I think they were drawn by a famous footballing instution offering them a fantastic deaal ?... or Ancelotti. ? Thats a no brainer. I doubt they'd have even listened to him had he been in charge at Sheffileld United or Palace.
Do I believe that Ancelotti or any other manager has more pull than an attractive contract ? Absolutely not. I think its sycophantic pap invented by people with little more than a desire for it to be so as their "evidence".
Even before Kenwright took us into dark times Everton football club had been attracting the most coveted players in the game. Not once in all that time did I hear anybody claim it was a fucking manager who pulled them in.
That is my opinion. It is not based on wishful thinking or some desire to bestow praise on somebody before they have earned it...It is not based on what some fella in the Guardian wrote. I watched the interviews myself. My opinion is based on fact. direct quotes from the parties involved. My opinion is based on one player telling us he told his agent to concentrate SOLELY on getting him to Everton.
Of course I could have just not voice my opinion and tell you you are completely right...if it wasnt for the facts.
Fact - None of these players are here do do a labour of love, or because of some crackpot notion that they have an overwhelming desire to play for the manager. They are here because of one person and one person only. They are here because Moshiri stumped up the dosh to bring them here.
Fact- When Gabriel and Hojbjerg rejected the chance to play for Carlo they were giving a little hint to those who peddle the myth of "pulling power"
Fact - if the rejection from these two players does not trigger a light bulb moment in minds of those who want to peddle this myth. Then nothing I can say will make a difference.
The name Everton was attracting world class players before Carlo Ancelotti was born Fantastic contracts will ALWAYS attract top players.
Manager Pulling power ?...Pull the other one
70 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:52:05
' quotes there from Allan and James that they came to Everton because of Carlo. But the fact that they have said it does not make it true, when there are alternative facts available!'
Am I missing something here? James and Allan say that they came to Everton because of Ancelloti yet that isn't proof that he has 'pulling power'?
'The fact that they said it doesn't make it true'?
Well, what would make it true?
I think that they'll be the judge of what they say is true or not. Unless, of course, you are member of their inner sanctum and they have revealed that the Guardian and the quotes therein were there just to fool bellends like me! ;-)
I, personally, and beyond delighted that we have Ancelloti and I firmly believe that without him, James, Allan and maybe even Doucoure would not be wearing our shirt.
71 Posted 09/10/2020 at 17:59:41
Is it not true that, prior to this awful Covid business, Gabriel had agreed personal terms with Everton and a deal was waiting to be finalised.
Then, everything stopped, football, everything. I have read that Everton then offered less for his services than had been agreed beforehand; hence he went to Arsenal. I also think that HÃ¸jbjerg wanted London, like so many players do.
I don't think it had anything to do with who manages us. It has also been reported that James took a pay cut to come here.
72 Posted 09/10/2020 at 18:04:58
On second reading, I think Steve is actually aligning himself with your thoughts and being deliberately ironic towards those intent on denying that Carlo was in any way a determining factor in certain players joining us, and that in a very short time the Italian has had an epiphany and flipped from being a has-been mercernary only here for a final pay day, to someone who now gets Everton.
Worth repeating again the wise words written in this thread:
'People will always see what they want to see.'
Still holding very, very true.
73 Posted 09/10/2020 at 18:09:05
A 30-year project, that will guarantee a hugh amount of money each year for a steel magnate, on a world-famous waterfront, that is possibly going to be amongst the biggest and most beautiful in Europe, in a location with a massive amount of scope.
I watched the first half of the England game last night, and even for an Evertonian, who has always backed Calvert-Lewin, it was actually a bit nauseating to hear some of the shite being talked about him, by the three men in the commentary room.
Hopefully it continues, because they usually only talk about players at the top clubs like this.
74 Posted 09/10/2020 at 18:10:19
Of course, if it's not correct then he can sod off.
75 Posted 09/10/2020 at 18:13:14
He is just a wind-up merchant dangling the worm.
76 Posted 09/10/2020 at 18:20:09
77 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:05:01
The fact that he, occasionally, talks bollocks is neither here nor there.
(Come on Darren, you didn't expect fulsome praise did you?)
78 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:06:00
I don't think for one minute James and Allan would have considered signing for Everton with Silva here, or most other managers.
Just another opinion of course, not "facts" just like some of your "opinions" in your post, despite the fact you claim them to be facts, mate.
79 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:08:14
Everton will also be a major worldwide brand so commercial sponsorships will jump in value, on top of player valuations and prize money.
A top accountant for large corporates has learnt so much, and we are going to be one of the largest corporate franchises on the planet at this rate.
80 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:13:06
As you say, Everton FC has been a big draw for top players. This was back in the '60s and '70s when we were apparently the richest and possibly most fashionable club in the country, able to attract the 66 World Cup final MotM.
But certainly in the Premier League era, we haven't been in that position, quite the opposite, with some of our best players leaving us in their prime.
The new era under Moshiri aims to return us to that position of being attractive to top players, but it's been a struggle. That is, until this season, when we've attracted three players who have made a big difference, one of whom has a reputation as world class and a very fashionable profile globally. All after, we recruited Ancelotti last year.
Now you might argue that Ancelotti had nowhere else to go, but it's difficult to see any evidence for that. What we do know beyond any doubt is that the media and many supporters of other clubs were saying that Ancelotti would never come to Everton. All the reds I know were saying it. Then of course they were all silenced.
To me, it is conceivable that Ancelotti being here is a signal to the world of football that Everton is serious about and focused on returning to the top table, in a way that most other clubs could never be. And that players like Rodriguez, who don't have our perceptions of just how good Everton used to be, are now here precisely because of Ancelotti's presence underlining this serious desire and focus on getting to the top. It is conceivable that those players are here because of BOTH (a) Ancelotti being here, and (b) our focus on getting to the top represented by the fact of Ancelotti being here. That is, it's not just Everton OR Ancelotti, but both Everton's current circumstances, including wealth, AND Ancelotti.
What has been said by the new signings when they arrived seems consistent with all of this.
81 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:30:19
82 Posted 09/10/2020 at 19:33:06
Ancelotti is out of date, plays negative zombie like football that does not entertain the supporters, who, as everyone knows, are used to top class football.
He is here only for a last final pay day.
Once we get a young manager in maybe he can attract players like...?
83 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:16:30
Our beautiful club, our beautiful city and our beautiful money from beautiful Uncle Alisher.
We should sit back and enjoy it because it's going to happen. These people don't understand "no", even if it takes a while.
84 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:32:10
85 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:34:47
No idea who you might be referring to of course!
That said, in my opinion IT'S A FACT, WITHOUT BEING PROMPTED, that all three players signed because with Carlo as their manager they'd achieve more success as players.
86 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:38:17
87 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:39:23
The more I think about the stadium, the more I think we've made the wrong choice. It's just too much money, and whilst it's on the waterfront, it's miles from anywhere. We should have sunk 𧴜M into Goodison, like the reds did with Anfield, and stayed where we've always been.
So we'll be 𧷤M down, in a brand new stadium that may not have a quarter of the atmosphere of Goodison, right next to the cold windy river and the smelly sewage works.
88 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:43:57
Totally agree, I think Osman should be the new manager!
Rodriquez, Allan and Doucoure are at Everton because of Ancelotti.
It's just such a pity that the Columbian and the Brazilian are not playing to packed Goodison, because there would be no doubt that they would feel the love. I hope it happens this season but who the fuck knows!
89 Posted 09/10/2020 at 20:45:08
90 Posted 09/10/2020 at 21:19:09
It was simple point, One I believed to be incontestable, The credit for our signings should be given to the man who funded them. Not to somebody who possesses some sort of mythical power which transcends all logic.
I ask myself four questions.
1) Would Everton and Moshiri have been able to land these players without Ancelotti by making the same offers ?
2) Would Ancelotti have been able to bring these players to Everton without Moshiri's funds.
3) Providing we have the funds, will we still be able to land top players when Ancelotti is gone ?
4) Are footballers like the rest of us, in the sense that they are ALWAYS attracted to the best offers on the table ?
I accept that the answer to the first question will be based purely on opinion. One which can never be proven either way, but for me the answers to questions 2,3+4 are no brainers.
No further argument from me. I told Paul T E that he had educated me even if I did disagree. He does his homework and bases his points on his research. I come on here because I like to learn from people like him who know more than me.
People can get as angry as they want. My opinion to give Moshiri total credit for landing anybody who comes through the door. Stands.
Disagree ? knock yourself out. I'm here to give an opinion. not seek approval.
91 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:12:51
The players we've attracted this summer have either worked with Ancellotti or want to work with him because of his proven track record. They aren't here to honor Catterick, Kendall et al. They here because Ancellotti believes he can win things here.
If same said players were offered the same deal and Allardyce was still in charge they'd rather stay put or perhaps poke their own eye out.
Everton have long been an irrelevant club, mediocre, and most importantly unsuccessful. Only relevant to the bubble we blues live in. To deny it is futile, to peddle the club pulls in players over the last 30 years of the calibre of James is nonsense. The list just doesn't exist. The media have moved on from us, and only serve to highlight what an irrelevance we are by reporting on others' defeats not our victories. Only when we win something will that change.
The closest player we've signed to being in the upper echelons of both the game and their career was Kanchelskis, who we didn't woo from the clutches of others. He fell out with Ferguson and was looking to stay in the North-West. Man City were shit, Liverpool a non-starter... we were the most logical and likely destination. Fortunately we had Royle, who could sell ice to the Eskimos.
Everton have been a cushy club to play for, many former pros will wax lyrical about their time at Goodison, how well they were treated and what a fanbase... zero about winning.
Players who are serious and want to win aren't attracted by this home spun rubbish. So what's changed? The manager has, a serious winning manager. Of course they came because of him.
92 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:34:07
93 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:44:57
94 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:48:05
And in other news Marcus Rashford MBE. Well done lad.
95 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:53:28
96 Posted 09/10/2020 at 22:54:22
97 Posted 09/10/2020 at 23:08:12
Everybody like big pay cheques, of course. However, biggest offers don't always win you the player and the chance to play in champions league, best clubs, silverware, managers (& to a lesser degree the challenges) make a difference.
Moshiri is not the richest by far in the premier league and I would guess we are in bottom half of wealthy owners (I may be totally wrong). However, we have not spent much money (net) as Paul Esk's article states. So respond to your numbering using Rodriguez as an example
1. No - in my opinion if we had Moyes, Big Sam, Silva or Koeman in charge no chance (James Rodriguez took wage drop too from what I have read)
2. Yes - I think his wages aren't that great (Rooney I think was on double when we resigned him)
3. finishing 12th, being shit for years but still attracting and getting him is an incredible feat in my opinion and unlikely to be repeated and the reason he came was because of Carlo
4. No (only question I can 100% answer - players are not ALWAYS attracted to best offers - I think a recent example is the guy Spurs signed from Southampton as example the other way of turning our better offer down).
98 Posted 10/10/2020 at 00:36:30
99 Posted 10/10/2020 at 01:54:34
100 Posted 10/10/2020 at 02:17:37
Darren #69, you have no idea whether James, Allan and Doucoure had any other offers on the table. Or, if they did, whether they were "better" from a purely financial perspective. Or how much any or all of them considered anything besides money when they weighed up what was the "best" offer. Or whether they spoke of Everton's tradition "WITHOUT BEING PROMPTED" (I don't think anybody handed them a script, but certainly they were briefed about the club when first contact was made). You're speculating with no information.
Myself, I don't think there is one teeny tiny chance in hell that James and Allan would have shown up to play for Marco the Muppet. They knew and admired Carlo, had played for him before, trusted him, believed in his ability to bring them success. If you really, truly believe James Rodriguez had no other offers but Everton, and would have played for Silva or Fat Sam or Bobby or Rhino or Big Dunc because the history was compelling and the "dosh" was right, I think you're so deeply invested in defending your original position that you can't see the sky out of the hole you've dug for yourself.
As for Gabriel and Hojbjerg rejecting the chance to play for Carlo, I think you're proving his "pulling power" as much as disproving it. They didn't turn down offers from "bigger" clubs to play for Carlo because they didn't know him. James and Allan came because they did know him. Pulling power isn't just reputational, it's personal.
I know, you're still sure they had no other offers.
101 Posted 10/10/2020 at 07:10:30
some decent points. You are right of course. Moshiri is not the richest out there, but that doesnt mean he didnt make these players the best offer they would get.
We are saturated with news these days and if ANY of the angry people can draw attention to a better offer. I'm all ears.
This is a tough thread for me. I wanted to praise the man who has funded the Everton "project" as opposed to giving credit to those who have benefited from it...But I seem to have raised the hackles of the Brady bunch.
This club has been a life long obsession of mine. I have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge about everything Everton
So; Do I listen to those who claim it has nothing to do with the manager when players reject offers from our club, but it has EVERYTHING to do with him when the come ?
Do I listen to people who claim the players were speaking from the heart when asked about the manager, but were only spouting stuff they were primed to spout when it comes to talking about one of footballs great institutions ?
Do I listen to people who clearly didnt hear/see the interviews, but will base their argument on an article penned by the guy who asked the questions ?
Do I ditched the information I gathered when listening to interviews in order to run with the "popular" view ?
Do I listen to people who tell me about all that imaginary success Allan and Doucoure enjoyed when last playing for Carlo ? or those who think introducing Leon Osman to the debate somehow proves their point ?
Na...I want to know who does what for this club. I don't just believe Farhad Moshiri is the reason we have signed four players, I know it.
I'm an Evertonian. The reason I know so much about my club is that I always take an interest in what goes on here. I want to learn. I want criticism to go where criticism belongs and I want credit to go where credit is due.
The Sycophantic pap afforded to a succession of managers (who havent won a banny mug between them) has no place in my heart.
102 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:10:38
103 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:22:48
I'm afraid â€˜sycophantic pap' is exactly what you are guilty of.
You're argument that you're such a big Evertonian, that you cannot fathom anyone else not realising the grandeur of the club, simply doesn't wash.
Rodriguez and Allan came to the club because they previously played for Ancelotti, respect the man, and were made a good offer by Everton. I'm afraid that, in this instance, Everton are the interchangeable factor.
104 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:23:55
Actually, that brings me to a memory of when I used to watch teams in NZ years ago, when an older player, another scouser, used to have a hot shower before a game.. reason? to "soften" up and stretch his hamstrings. He used to suffer badly with them until he went to a physio and he said that's what he told him to do.. then stretch properly.. seemed to work, didn't improve his game though lol
I remember the smell though even recently if the wind was blowing the wrong way you can smell it in Burlie..
105 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:36:14
You didnt just raise the hackles of other posters with this one comment.. You did that when you dismissed him before he even got here
Carlofantastico, Carlofantastico, Carlofantaststico, Carlofantstico.
Come on Dazza sing up. We cant hear you at the back
106 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:46:55
To those who said DCL was never going to be more than a championship player - you were wrong.
To those who said Ancelotti had no pulling power - you were wrong.
Admitting you were wrong is not a sign of weakness.
107 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:56:22
So that just damns the rest of us ToffeeWebbers. Who thought we were also Evertonians; who also thought we knew about our club; who also take an interest in what goes on.
"The reason I know so much..." I think we'll just let that one hang there.
108 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:58:00
A little bird tells me you have just parted with 28k for a passat.
You of all people should know the credit for ALL of our signings should go to Moshiri.
He's got more money than sense too.
I will talk about interviews I watched. I`ll leave other people to discuss what the fella writing for the Guardian said.
Mind you. you dont have to know much about footy, to understand that the fella who foots the bill is ALWAYS the one who makes things happen...You may want to leave that hanging there as well
109 Posted 10/10/2020 at 08:58:19
A big padded coat with our season tickets is what we will need, but the stadium, and the whole area really will be a sight to behold.
“Where there's lifeâ€ is what this whole regeneration scheme is going to create, so not a chance it's going to be far from anywhere though, “THE FAIRYTALE OF BRAMLEY MOORE!
110 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:07:01
111 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:15:50
Uh? How on earth is that relevant to my comment? Who said anything about what some fella in the Guardian said?!
All I did was quote you back to yourself: "The reason I know so much..."!!!
112 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:30:01
When we turn those bids down we're in business!
113 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:36:35
You lied and said I damned the knowledge of others on TW. A total fabrication
I said I know a lot about this club and have a thirst for more knowledge. Both factual statements.
Go back to my original post. I said I come on here to be educated.
114 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:45:03
I have never tried Ketchup aux Tomates by the glass do you put a dash of Worcester sauce in it.
115 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:45:25
Stephen@112: Agreed. When we show we no longer sell our best players in their prime, then we know we're going places.
116 Posted 10/10/2020 at 09:54:49
117 Posted 10/10/2020 at 10:43:14
So dissing the views of fellow blues.
"I'm an Evertonian. The reason I know so much about my club is that I always take an interest in what goes on here. I want to learn. I want criticism to go where criticism belongs and I want credit to go where credit is due."
"The reason I know so much..."!!!
118 Posted 10/10/2020 at 10:54:33
119 Posted 10/10/2020 at 10:56:32
Len, first, take a pint glass, fill it with red wine. Then, take several tomatoes, a bottle of ketchup and some Worcester sauce.
Put the tomatoes in the fridge, the ketchup and Worcester sauce in the pantry and drink the wine.
Works every time.
120 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:00:40
For years we've had various satellites orbiting the earth. We've had millions of photos from the International Space Station
Planes and ships use great circle tracks to take the earths curvature into account.
We still have the Flat Earth Society
The article was great and informative Paul until the inevitable. Thanks
121 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:01:14
UEFA Intertoto Cup: 1999
Serie A: 2003–04
Coppa Italia: 2002–03
Supercoppa Italiana: 2004
UEFA Champions League: 2002–03, 2006–07
UEFA Super Cup: 2003, 2007
FIFA Club World Cup: 2007
Premier League: 2009–10
FA Cup: 2009–10
FA Community Shield: 2009
Ligue 1: 2012–13
Copa del Rey: 2013–14
UEFA Champions League: 2013–14
UEFA Super Cup: 2014
FIFA Club World Cup: 2014
Banny Mug runner up 2019
He's right like if you read through Ancelotti's honours in full. ;-)
122 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:08:36
I was wondering how long it would be before somebody came along and pointed out that there are a load of contributory factors involved in every transfer. Anybody who thinks Carlo is the only reason these players are here is ignoring the facts.
Darren I'd doing what Darren does. He has taken the fact that Moshiri is the reason these players are here and he is defending it because he knows its incontestable. What he isn't doing is acknowledging that there are a whole bunch of other facts to be taken into consideration.
He's right in the sense that Carlo isn't the only reason the players signed, but he is choosing not to recognise the fact that Carlos presence was most definitely one of the msin reasons they are here.
"Sycophant" eh ? I must remind you of that little gem next time you see Colin Harvey and you are gushing like a schoolgirl and fawning all over him
123 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:20:52
But what have the Roman's ever done for us?
In my limited experience of TW. The thing that spoils threads are people who keep coming on to settle old scores Without actually making a contribution to the debate.
124 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:25:04
But you're right. We need to stand up for ourselves. And we need to be canny.
125 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:32:22
'I am not particularly upset to have left English football, even if the banner from the Everton fans really moved me, as I wasn't expecting it
Moise, "some" of us aren't too upset either mate.
126 Posted 10/10/2020 at 11:39:04
Undoubtedly Carlo's presence is a massive factor in this transfer window but without the environment provided by Mosh it couldn't happen
It is a partnership effort and we should applaud that.
127 Posted 10/10/2020 at 12:29:23
Anyway, talking of learning, could somebody please answer my question in #19? I genuinely don't understand those column headings and totals.
128 Posted 10/10/2020 at 12:44:18
I think the point is that Mosh has been around for nearly five years. The best we could get pre Carlo was Gylfi. the top stars just weren't interested, even though we had the money. It's only since Carlo came that we've managed to get through the door
129 Posted 10/10/2020 at 13:46:47
130 Posted 10/10/2020 at 14:14:41
You're absolutely right Moshiri has given us a chance to sign these players, without him having taken over we would never had a chance. I have been taken aback how good Moshiri has been I would not have blamed him if he gave up but he really does seem to do everything he can. I know what you mean if Carlo was manager at Norwich then these players simply wouldn't have come and I agree fully.
My difference of opinion is that Carlo came to Everton not just because of money and no options but genuinely I think he was sold the club wanted to compete with the big boys. I might be gullible. The other thing we disagree on (which is fine) is that I believe Carlo was the difference in getting Rodriguez and Allan here / he's a big draw and admired by players (particularly those who have played under him and excelled) and he is legendary. Importantly it gives credibility to outsiders that Moshiri is not messing around and means business. I personally think you underestimate what a statement having Carlo in charge is. That's why pundits scratched their heads thinking what was going on, we have no status - we're viewed as also rans.
I agree with you that it's premature christening him the messiah and let's wait and see as we've had extremely disappointing managers ever since I've gone the match (late 80s) and non Everton managers have never fared well to my memory. Personally, following football somewhat obsessively when I was younger meant I thought he was excellent and would be a real good fit for us. I am excited and time will tell.
However, Ancellotti need to show our belief in him is correct. You are right again to challenge him and not just be happy and giddy because he is here. Carlo himself has acknowledged he and our team should have pressure placed on them. For me European football has to be the absolute bare minimum, Champions league has to be a realistic target and a trophy should be viewed as an excellent season nothing less. I appreciate some view Champions League better than a trophy but not me.
131 Posted 10/10/2020 at 16:41:47
132 Posted 10/10/2020 at 18:12:05
Enough of the suspense already, is there an ending?
133 Posted 10/10/2020 at 20:36:27
134 Posted 10/10/2020 at 22:28:01
However, let's be clear: Moshiri's cash didn't get Koeman, Allardyce or Silva the world class quality of player that Ancelotti can attract.
So clearly Ancelotti's CV gets players wanting to buy into "The Project"!
Food for thought: there are many Moshiri types across the globe at football clubs, a lot more clubs in far sunnier climes. So it's clearly the Ancelotti factor that has the biggest impact!!!!
135 Posted 10/10/2020 at 22:53:37
136 Posted 11/10/2020 at 00:19:06
High wages is one part of it.
A good manager is another. An existing trusted relationship with that manager is even better.
Promise of further investment in the 'project' is key. Though players would rightly be suspicious of those kind of promises.
Having a guy with Ancelotti's experience talking about promises of further investment would go a long way to allaying those fears and would be huge. Ancelotti brings credibility to the promises. Well he certainly does for me - I expect big things because Carlo wouldn't have signed on otherwise.
I'm not sure why there's any debate?
137 Posted 11/10/2020 at 10:39:04
On the face of it, this battle looks like it has only just broke out on this thread, but it's been going on for weeks. It was always coming to a head.
Michael and Mike have been adamant that Carlo is the reason these players are here. and although I don't buy onto the "pulling power" theory I have no doubt, that they are right.
I just think Carlo thinks on a different level. Yes, it can be argued that a different manager may "possibly" have brought them here, but how many would have even tried? Who among our previous managers would it have even occurred to?
The flaw in the argument is the have not acknowledged the part other factors have played. On a thread about the improved finances and acquisitions, it was wrong not to accept the massive part Moshiri played in this. Or that our club itself is an attractive proposition.
Knowing Darren he will think he won the day, because he took a position which was incontestable. He's wrong.
He has always known about Carlos "long arms" but he totally miscalculated the backing he would get. Claims like "He wont win any thinh with these players" were fueled by his deep-rooted suspicion that the "Outsider" is only here to fleece the club. "Why else would a man with no budget come here?"
Confusing times for those who thought Carlo was here to boost his pension. After having their fears seemingly confirmed by his apparent inertia last season. They are now witnessing him go to work. He knew funds would be made available. Even if we didn't.
It's true that Everton has only ever achieved success under Evertonians, but they weren't all born Evertonians. Bally, Catterick, Howard and even big Dunc all came to the party late. They fell in love with our club. Hopefully Carlo will be next.
For me. Common sense finally broke out on this thread. More rational posters steered the debate into calmer waters by pointing to a whole range of different contributory factors which brought about the arrival of these players.
Who cares? We don't have to analyse everything.
138 Posted 11/10/2020 at 11:08:07
139 Posted 11/10/2020 at 11:09:05
The simple way to look at all the guff Darren spouts is this: it was all there before and had made absolutely no difference. Zero. The key factor is Carlo. Without him, James Rodriguez would not be at Everton.
It really is that simple.
140 Posted 11/10/2020 at 11:22:00
When you look at the players now, they are doing what comes naturally and not overthinking. "Go out and enjoy yourselves". it's a recipe for success and for freedom from crippling fear.
Long may it continue.
141 Posted 11/10/2020 at 12:04:41
My final word on this.
By addressing this issue on this of all threads. I think you have chosen the wrong hill upon which to have your battle. Because we don't know who Moshiri would have brought in had Carlo not been available. We can never know who we could or would have brought In.
The only thing we know for sure is that we wouldn't have brought any of these players here had Farhad not stumped up.
All the protagonist in this debate can claim to be partially right. However. Only those who relent and acknowledge there were other huge factors involved can grab the clearly coveted prize of being indisputably "right".
I suspect none of you will take a step backwards. So when the awards night comes around and they are presenting the prize for being completely and utterly right. I do hope its goes to Barry for his modest little effort in post 126.
142 Posted 11/10/2020 at 12:21:50
If Moshiri and Carlo had arrived at the same time, I think you could make a good case that it was impossible to know what made the difference. But we've been trying to attract good players to Everton with Moshiri's money for five years, to no avail. Carlo gets here, and suddently it's a doddle.
And why is that? We know why... cos he is a world class manager that these top footballers trust.
143 Posted 11/10/2020 at 13:45:32
144 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:19:38
All these factors (except Carlo) were in place... and we were still going backwards. So all those factors, separately or together, can't have been effective.
Even Carlo coming on his own (without his chosen players) was not effective – see last season.
But then came James Rodriguez. And he came because Carlo Ancelotti is the Everton manager. Pulling Power... Simples.
145 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:55:22
I will try to respond to that point.
I'm totally with you. Carlo is the main reason why James is here, but I think it's for the reason Dave Abrahams gave.
Managers often go back for players they had at previous clubs. That's generally because they have forged a relationship or the manager is aware of the player's circumstances. Personally, I wouldn't describe that as pulling power. I didn't hear anybody talking about Marco's pulling power when he signed Richarlison.
If I'm honest, I have never heard the term used about a manager signing a former player before this debate. Maybe I need to get out more...
I also think it's a little unfair to say we couldn't draw top players under Moshiri. To be fair, he doesn't select the players we go for, but he has backed all of his managers to the hilt. He backed his manager to land Gylfi even though he had to top a 㿔 million bid from Leicester. It's nor his fault the manager's judgement was a little awry.
I'm still more swayed by Barry's post than anybody else's.
I know one thing. If James lays on the winner against Liverpool, or smashes it in himself. Nobody on this site will give a damn how he got here.
146 Posted 14/10/2020 at 12:51:37
You mention that you want to redevelop Goodison. Take a look at "Alternative Sites Assessment_2020_Part1of2.pdf" (found on the above link). This outlines the reasons why we cannot simply stay at Goodison and redevelop
the other documents are also interesting and go into great detail about the proposed development
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