Dan Meis has expressed his disappointment at no longer being engaged on Everton’s Bradley-Moore Dock project
Updated Everton have reportedly handed architectural duties for the proposed Bramley-Moore Dock stadium over to a UK-based firm as Dan Meis announces that he is no longer part of the project.
According to the Liverpool Echo, Pattern Design have been selected by construction firm Laing O'Rourke to continue design planning, assuming it is given the green light by the City.
Phil Kirkbride of the Echo reports that it was always part of Everton's plan to put the contract for the next phase up for bidding and it appears as though Meis was edged out by Pattern.
Dan Meis, the head of the US-based architectural design firm of the same name that has headed up design of the new ground to date, contested that notion, asserting via Twitter that, "if this was ‘always the plan' no one shared it with me. In my 30 years of designing stadiums I have never had our work taken over by another architect without remaining in a custodian/oversight role.”
Earlier, the New York and Los Angeles-based designer had tweeted: "Let me be clear. I am fully confident that Bramley Moore will be built. It is both right for the Club and the city. Unfortunately I am not currently engaged in the project.
"How that was handled is one the greatest disappointments of my career, and at the appropriate time I will comment."
Meis's post to the social media channel followed a cryptic tweet a few days ago where he said: "If I learned anything from this year it is that when someone says 'it isn't personal, it is just business' I probably shouldn't have been in business with them to begin with..."
Meis's second tweet today went on to say, "please understand that this is my personal twitter account and believe it or not, not everything I write is a reference to Everton," but that post from four days ago is being taken as a reference to the club.
Meis, whose firm was behind recent stadium designs for the likes of AS Roma in Italy and US sport venues like Safeco Field in Seattle and Los Angeles's Staples Center, has been on board the Bramley-Moore Dock project from the outset and the visuals he released a year ago for Everton's proposed ground were met a hugely positive reaction.
Reader Comments (128)
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1 Posted 24/06/2020 at 16:59:07
Let me be clear. I am fully confident that Bramley Moore will be built. It is both right for the Club and the city. Unfortunately I am not currently engaged in the project. How that was handled is one of the greatest disappointments of my career, and at the appropriate time I will comment. For now please understand that this is my personal twitter account and believe it or not, not everything I write is a reference to Everton. I love this club and have loved the interaction.
2 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:05:27
I'll be interested to learn more. T'net not offering much insight beyond his tweets at the moment.
3 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:05:49
4 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:06:09
5 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:06:35
6 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:08:03
7 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:13:51
8 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:14:04
9 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:17:08
10 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:21:11
Are there new plans by a new architect?! Surely new plans would have to be resubmitted to planning. His comment doesn't really make sense if the stadium and construction time is still going ahead.
11 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:28:11
Tension then arises between architect and client, architect does not wish to diverge from his/her dream, client will only pay so much to have the thing built, architect pulls back from project or is sacked.
Mere speculation on my part.
12 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:31:57
13 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:33:37
14 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:34:10
15 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:38:12
16 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:38:39
Again it frustrates really because it's 12 months since we heard about the design for Bramley-Moore Dock and a whole year on diddly squat in getting any real progress made.
If there were awards for great bluster and even better stadium diagrams the we would win the lot, sadly as per usual it doesn't amount to anything remotely tangible.
17 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:38:41
18 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:39:29
The RS are going to love this news.
So does anyone know what Brent asked: Will we own the plans/design??
19 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:43:55
21 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:51:11
Stinks of a Red Shite fan.
22 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:52:48
23 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:53:44
24 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:53:47
25 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:53:47
However, the specification could change, the quality of materials could be reduced. That in itself could be an issue. Poor quality materials at a riverside location will wear badly.
26 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:54:12
Well, on this occasion, his cryptic Tweet WAS Everton related and completely unprofessional. He got the reaction he anticipated and did not comment for days.
Regardless of how the club handled his release, he's thrown his toys out of his pram in a Trump-esque fashion... oh, the irony.
27 Posted 24/06/2020 at 17:59:23
28 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:02:23
29 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:10:37
30 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:13:53
1: The club is loss-making and cannot afford a loan with interest payments for a new mega stadium.
2: The pandemic has changed the world with a high probability that all capacity assumptions made earlier will not hold true any longer.
3: Other sources of club income are under threat going forward, there is a real risk that the next TV deal will be for less money.
Redeveloping Goodison Park slowly as and when finances permit is the prudent and in my opinion the right way to go forward.
31 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:16:58
You mention the pandemic but Moshiri's and Usmanov's wealth has actually increased.
I really hope the plan will go ahead. However, I'd prefer Ancelotti to be financially backed fully so we can build a successful team on the pitch. If we build a trophy-winning side, sponsorship streams will grow hugely and the stadium will largely pay for itself.
32 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:25:28
Here's hoping â€“ the Meis effort is a giant air-conditioning duct crossed with a camping stove â€“ absolutely horrendous, and will age as well as 1960s tower blocks
33 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:32:13
34 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:37:59
35 Posted 24/06/2020 at 18:49:56
36 Posted 24/06/2020 at 19:00:35
37 Posted 24/06/2020 at 19:12:15
We've got a concept. It makes sense to use someone who is considered eminent and innovative for that.
Now we get to the detail. If we're committed to the vision then all will be fine.
Meis's disappointment is the only bit that worries me.
38 Posted 24/06/2020 at 19:18:54
39 Posted 24/06/2020 at 19:24:33
40 Posted 24/06/2020 at 20:14:43
41 Posted 24/06/2020 at 20:25:39
No room for passion if money is involved and, let's face it, Lang O'Rourke don't care. But I guess its all about business ethics, told one thing but it wasn't in his contract? Hence his comment..?
42 Posted 24/06/2020 at 20:36:25
43 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:02:25
The amount of times l've done interior designs for some cheap pricks who then turned around and go to Ikea with my work, I've lost count of.
44 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:12:52
The eventual loser will, I fear, be the quality of the final product.
45 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:18:45
Stadium designs and Everton and controversy... seems like history repeating.
Colin, @40, yes I agree: nothing â€“ and more so in a Covid-19 world â€“ would surprise me.
Will the dig start in September? I hope it's not but the silence and lack of momentum, makes this feel like it's in jeopardy at the least in terms of starting.
Hopefully this is a last twist in this tale of Bramley-Moore Dock design and planning, and it starts this year.
46 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:18:47
Lol â€“ probably about right.
47 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:21:10
The architect conceives the building. The Club tender the building and the architect oversees the build at every stage. Why this is not happening is not known.
Obviously Meis is right pissed off as really it's his baby and he wants to see it born. Pandemic or not, when we are talking of build cost, employing Meis to see it through is negligible.
Fuck knows what's going on at the People's Club!
48 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:27:23
Meis has been dispensed with as he would have been a dissenting voice in the cost-cutting.
49 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:34:13
50 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:41:21
The curse of Kenwright strikes again!
51 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:42:48
Never would happen with a ToffeeWebber.
52 Posted 24/06/2020 at 21:53:08
It seems strange to let the architect go â€“ it is placing a massive degree of faith in a 3rd party to turn Dan Meis's vision into reality. The devil is in the detail, as they say.
Hopefully, this will not end up backfiring if we encounter problems in the planning and building phase. What if the new architect wants to review some of the plans and do them differently? Will this put the project back further? Everton that.
53 Posted 24/06/2020 at 22:01:26
54 Posted 24/06/2020 at 22:13:34
Paul Tran talks about Everton becoming more ruthless on another thread, well maybe this is the start of a more ruthless regime, but hopefully it doesn't leave the stadium lacking when it's finally built.
55 Posted 24/06/2020 at 22:27:16
56 Posted 24/06/2020 at 22:42:27
57 Posted 24/06/2020 at 22:50:27
58 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:02:31
There is the possibility that cost-cutting is part of the reason but we won't know until the stadium passes the planning stage and begins to be built... or not, as the case may be.
59 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:06:26
Laing-O'Rourke got the contract then. It was announced and was in the local newspapers at the time.
I went to their site and they've done all kinds of construction projects around the UK; including Liverpool. Massive construction projects.
Maybe Meis thought his team would be kept on.
Mentioned in the OP is the architectural firm replacing Meis: Pattern Design. Looked them up, too. Gorgeous stadiums around the world. Wow!
Including, unfortunately, 3 stadiums built for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar. On the fortunate side, England has strict laws against slave labour.
60 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:12:46
Currently, probably not a high priority with all the real-life deaths from Covid-19.
"Not currently engaged" is all that is said / written. Until we know the outcome, so what?
We may be saving a bit of money and keeping options open in case a change is needed.
In large-scale projects, is not unusual to change the project lead, team, external help etc, so no dramas.
But (if I can play devil's advocate), just look at our record of appointing managers over the years... Aaaahhhh!
61 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:17:45
62 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:22:12
If only Ikea did footy stadiums.
63 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:24:38
64 Posted 24/06/2020 at 23:37:58
Didn't anyone read the recent Guardian article regarding Kenwright's hand in the negotiations with bringing new players in... STILL... (Todibo, Marghelles, 2 or 3 others as I write)
And how (as ever and ever) all of them are still being wrangled, stop-started and drawn interminably out, with him in the frame.
He is bad bad bad bad bad bad luck.
65 Posted 25/06/2020 at 00:44:28
Have you a link? I was hoping that, under Ancelotti, Kenwright would have nothing to do transfers. I believe his contribution last Summer caused a lot of problems for Brands.
66 Posted 25/06/2020 at 01:00:54
IMHO, stick with the guy who brought you to the dance!
Hopefully, it wasn't a Kenwright decision. ðŸ™€
67 Posted 25/06/2020 at 02:17:48
68 Posted 25/06/2020 at 05:37:01
“I believe his contribution last Summer caused a lot of problems for Brands.â€ Really? With respect, what exactly do you know that enables you to write this?
Anyone here could write that comment. Kenwright haters, apologists, mildly interested observers etc etc.
Similarly some here, me most certainly included, read stuff like this after the pre-Brands period of unbelievable, disasterous transfer policy / performance failure that frankly remains as the key reason why, in a sad FFP world, we are in such a mess with the squad, and we sigh at the tunnel vision that inflicts us Blues on a repetitive basis!
69 Posted 25/06/2020 at 05:44:17
All we've got is a concept at the moment. Laing O'Rourke won't be pushing down the costs right now; if anything, they'll be pushing them up. Depending on contract type (they're only signed up for pre-construction services prior to award of a full Design and Construct contract). they'd prefer to be pushing them up to set a higher lump sum or Target price.
If costs go down at this stage, it's the club driving it, not the D&C Contractor.
The Architect will be acting as a Project Manager moving forward, specifying architectural elements for the design. This doesn't need to be Meis. We've got his concept and I'm sure he's been well paid for his company's input.
It will be interesting to hear how and why they fell out with each other but this idea that the board aren't making good decisions for Everton but Meis really has our best interests at heart is a big leap to make. Meis is a gun for hire.
Contacts drive behaviours. I'm sure the right people are involved to make those kind of decisions. And it won't be anything to do with love for the club.
70 Posted 25/06/2020 at 06:12:33
This, alongside the inevitable arrival of a host of construction experts amongst us in the ToffeeWeb fraternity, makes me wonder what I was watching, reading, commenting on over the last few years as Everton FC embarked upon exactly that, a sentimental journey with Dan Meis as the almost fatherly figure at the centre of the “People's Clubâ€ Bramley-Moore Dock adventure.
Our club embraced the Meis approach, we put it front and centre of our “Everton Familyâ€ approach the entire Bramley-Moore Dock project. We promoted the hell out of the interaction between this outstanding architect and us, the supporters. We tweeted and re-tweeted his content, his incredible grasp of what matters to us, the supporters. We shouted long and hard about how his grasp of our history made a massive difference to the success of the project and why doing this “the Everton wayâ€ mattered.
The club built and maintained a relationship with this architect that was clearly more than “just businessâ€. It did feel like Meis had been allowed into our world of impatient frustration but was here to show that, creative brilliance aside, having this professional listening to and engaged with the fans was a crucial part of delivering the project. It was different.
All of this relationship-building was avidly led and supported by the Board with events, and words that left you feeling that we were in the hands of someone who had quickly become a part of the club, an example of doing business on this scale in a way that somehow screamed of pride to be designing a stadium fit for a real football club etc etc.
So, to see Dan Meis react then way he has and to measure the gap between his rather stark understanding of what was “plannedâ€ or not, is to surely feel that there's something very grubby and unpleasant gone on.
Just business? Well, maybe... and yes, we don't know the full story and may only do so in four years time when it won't count for anything anyway but... I know it's probably naÃ¯vetÃ© at its worst but I connected with the EFC-Meis family approach here and it did for me count for something because frankly, in our new normal, genuine connections matter when nationally we are fed a daily diet of bluster and lies. Integrity and the EFC-Meiss partnership actually seemed real and added to what I see as the best type of “Value Engineeringâ€.
So to see it end like this leaves me hugely disappointed and yes, worried about what it means to lose the beating heart of this project and the amount of passion and care for doing it right.
71 Posted 25/06/2020 at 06:13:27
If EFC have invited tenders for a second design phase, why would the contractor select the company it is to be awarded to?
In Design and Build contracts the Client (EFC) use a Consultant (Meis) to produce a concept design, a design brief and preliminary specifications for tender.
The winning bidder becomes the Design and Build Contractor (Laing O'Rourke). The D&B Contractor appoints their own consultants to progress the design through preliminary and final stages.
The Client appoints it's own Project Management Consultants to protect their interests and ensure that the design brief is followed. This may be the original consultants, or not.
And the linked article in The Echo doesn't mention anything about Pattern Design.
72 Posted 25/06/2020 at 08:03:59
It's possible that Dan Meis is suffering from Hiram Abiff syndrome.
But then again...
73 Posted 25/06/2020 at 08:39:08
There is something very wrong about all this.
"It's nothing personal - just business". How many times did I hear that said by a builder during my many years as a manager of a subcontracting firm in the Melbourne building game. It was always a poor excuse for scurrilous behavior.
74 Posted 25/06/2020 at 09:02:52
I've never worked on a stadium, but in all the projects I have worked on, and the original architects have been omitted from the project, it's always been because there's been a falling out somewhere along the line.
That said, has anyone looked at Pattern's website?
They are quite impressive.
75 Posted 25/06/2020 at 09:44:53
It's not unusual for a re-tender process to see the build through to completion. I myself have changed Architect from the Design to the Build because the original designer believes that they are guaranteed the job and therefore put in an obscene quote.
Moshiri is no fool.
I'd be more concerned if the club are re-evaluating the Project capacity due to Coronavirus. No point in having a 50,000-seater if two-thirds of the seats can't be filled.
76 Posted 25/06/2020 at 09:47:36
There can be no sentiment in this- Meiss has designed a good stadium and no doubt been handsomely rewarded. Moshiri (and Usmanov?) did not make their money by being sentimental. (Isn't that what posters here accuse Bill of being?)
I am delighted to see a more ruthless and purely commercial approach being taken with such an expensive and vital project.
77 Posted 25/06/2020 at 09:55:42
I respect the guy and the stadium looks fantastic; however, airing your dirty laundry on Twitter for the world to see stinks of someone who never got their own way and is upset by it.
If he done the initial plans and never drew up any form of contract to say he and his company will start and complete the project then it's more fool him. It also makes sense for Everton to of shopped around and taken the very best deal on the table as even a saving of say 㾶 million is still massive, especially with what's happened in the last few months.
Dan, strikes me as being more mad at himself, not Everton. Mad that he now isn't involved and it's his company's design, and mad that his company won't get the massive windfall that actually building the stadium will bring. I hate to say it but the guy sounds bitter.
Business is business and we would of been stupid to take his offer if there was a better one on the table, especially if it saves money.
78 Posted 25/06/2020 at 10:03:01
That would never happen, as they are completely different stages. Everton paid Meis for Architectural Drawings and Everton alone, own the intellectual property of those Drawings and are therefore free to do with them as they wish.
The Architects that I have dealt with are very close to their work and see it as Art (which it may be), but this also means they are reluctant to accept any deviations. Hiring a new team to deliver the vision with no attachment to the original drawings is good business.
79 Posted 25/06/2020 at 10:03:28
And, ongoing, he was too expensive in the present circumstances!
80 Posted 25/06/2020 at 10:13:48
I'd be more concerned if the club are re-evaluating the Project capacity due to Coronavirus. No point in having a 50,000-seater if two-thirds of the seats can't be filled.
Liam, if we're still concerned about Covid-19 three or four years down the line, we're in deep shit!
81 Posted 25/06/2020 at 10:44:39
Yeah, not pretending I know anything about stuff like this.
Just strikes me like Dan got emotionally attached and became mad when we chose another business to deliver the end product.
82 Posted 25/06/2020 at 10:55:29
The facts always come out in the wash and will in regards to Kenwright's involvement.
The FFP problem was caused prior to Brands's arrival. Brands's primary role so far has been trying to work between a rock and a hard place since he started, as a result. That's why the Saha saga and Brands being involved in it, does not make sense.
As for Meis, his tender was just not successful for the next stage of the stadium development. Tuff.
83 Posted 25/06/2020 at 11:07:29
Effectively, Meis will have been appointed by Everton for the submission of planning and now that Laing O'Rourke have been appointed to build out, it is them that will become the client and it's their responsibility to appoint the Post Contract Architect.
Often the decision will be based on fees or indeed on the suggested Value Engineering offered by the new Architect.
A real shame â€“ I thought the whole design process, the engagement with the fans and his whole personality was perfect for us. I just hope that Pattern don't arse around with the design too much.
With the Application in and running, they will have to stick to what is approved unless they make further variation applications.
84 Posted 25/06/2020 at 11:31:03
Meis has been great with the fans, many of whom have given him a role of trusted conduit for the project, on the basis that we don't all trust the club. I suspect that's an issue for some in the club.
In my business life, I've been on both sides of the 'not personal, it's business' line. Most people neither like, nor want it. It happens and both sides move on.
We'll build the stadium, Meis will move to his next project.
85 Posted 25/06/2020 at 11:43:22
86 Posted 25/06/2020 at 12:10:10
This is a project of 𧺬M plus and will change the course of our Club's future for better or worse so if it was my money then damn sure I'd be out there tendering every nut and bolt!
Meis will have had his chance to bid and probably thought his “relationshipâ€ allowed him leeway on the pricing. He got it wrong and is now publicly licking his wounds. Everton have nothing to apologise for and should be commended for showing some business acumen at last.
87 Posted 25/06/2020 at 12:10:11
Also, the images/fly-through on the Pattern website is from before the most recent reworking and consultations â€“ may be nothing, but I would at least expect them to showcase the designs that were sent for approval
I can't see any positives here â€“ I would presume it's got something (everything) to do with cost-cutting and although I appreciate this may be required given what has happened this year, the outcome could be a shadow of what was proposed. I appreciate the design cannot be radically changed once planning is granted, but you can make something look very similar with cheaper materials? We (not all granted) quickly accepted the 52k capacity once Meis and the club gave their rationale, so will we be ok with a lesser version of what was proposed?
Apologies for the naivety here...
88 Posted 25/06/2020 at 12:10:58
This isn't particularly unusual and is part of Value Engineering a large project. It happened relatively recently to Dan Meis concerning the build of the FC Cincinnati stadium where Populous were appointed to the role of technical architects. They've tweaked the designs a tiny bit but not much.
What is unusual is that he seemingly hasn't been retained in some capacity to oversee this. But that may not be the case for the whole build.
I do think the original piece needs correcting though as it is Laing O'Rourke that has appointed Pattern and not EFC.
Overall, I think Bramley-Moore Dock will still go ahead as it is such a vital piece of the jigsaw in relation to the long-term viability and competitiveness of the football club.
89 Posted 25/06/2020 at 12:27:35
90 Posted 25/06/2020 at 12:57:28
I am a builder, this happens all the time... it's happened to me as well.
This will be built defo but Covid-19 has definitely put a trowel in the works, so to speak.
91 Posted 25/06/2020 at 13:06:37
That's all Folks!
92 Posted 25/06/2020 at 13:11:51
93 Posted 25/06/2020 at 14:04:47
Everton may directly appoint them in an oversight role. Have them Project Manage and Superintend the contract. Well, we (Everton) can't do it, can we?
Everton might appoint them during Pre-Construction Services (I'm reading this as Early Contractor Involvement) and then novate them across.
In this example, I would have thought it's one of the last two. What would be the point of having the preferred D&B contractor appoint the architect now? They've no tie to the concept design and would just go native immediately.
There are lots of unknowns around the contractual setup. I'm not sure we're really in a position to form any conclusions.
94 Posted 25/06/2020 at 14:30:05
I left the construction industry in the UK many years ago to work in the USA and what surprised me was that it was nothing like JR's Dallas-inspired shenanigans, at least not for major projects in the big cities. Over the years, developing relationships between clients and consultants based on trust, teamwork and the efficient delivery of a great product became extremely important in the professional business world of our closest neighbours across the pond.
So, reading Mark's post in that context, and with some empathy for the massive commitment Dan Meis has put into this project, I feel sadly that the club has allowed a massive mistake to occur here on a number of levels.
I'm not sure if what Derek Taylor says @79 was tongue-in-cheek, but sadly that would fit exactly with the Everton Way we have come to know and hate under Blue Bill for the last 25 years or so.
A real PR disaster, but let's see what level of bullshit they come up with to paper over this one.
95 Posted 25/06/2020 at 15:40:19
In other news, the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
96 Posted 25/06/2020 at 16:51:24
97 Posted 25/06/2020 at 17:19:01
Pattern were hired to assist Meis on 7 August 2019, and It is understood that it is common practice for foreign architects to appoint UK architects familiar with the country's regulations and rules.
According to their website, Pattern are familiar with stadium builds both in the UK and abroad, and as they have the tender for building the new ground, they already have 1 of the architects who has been involved with some of the design.
98 Posted 25/06/2020 at 17:31:26
"Pattern were invited by the club to join the Design Team, led by New York-based MEIS Architects, as Technical Architect.
As a RIBA chartered practice, one of Pattern's key roles is to present the design intent and win planning for this ambitious and challenging project. The Bramley-Moore Dock site is located within a UNESCO World Heritage site, the Liverpool waterfront being an area of historical significance. To meet the exciting challenge of addressing this historic site sensitively, Pattern's heritage experts, based in the Edinburgh studio are supporting the London design team. Composed of senior architects specialising in conservation and historical monuments, our conservation team have consulted on architectural projects in other UNESCO World Heritage Sites, most prominently Edinburgh.
Pattern is also responsible for specialist sports planning and technical architectural consultancy to ensure the smooth delivery that is so critical to the client's goals."
However, I don't know when that was dated.
99 Posted 25/06/2020 at 19:37:19
100 Posted 25/06/2020 at 20:13:22
101 Posted 25/06/2020 at 21:01:37
102 Posted 25/06/2020 at 21:04:54
How do we achieve it, time after time?
103 Posted 25/06/2020 at 22:29:47
I do feel sorry for Dan Meis. He was very passionate about the project and didn't he even get himself an Everton tattoo?!
104 Posted 25/06/2020 at 23:01:56
Having said that, I have always been suspect of any dealings at Boardroom level, they all go in there with their Saville Row suits, and of course a briefcase, which has at least their sandwiches, and a few porn mags, but little else which is of relevance to the subject matter in hand.
Sceptical, yes of course I am. I always have been of 'dudes in suits' â€“ whether they are politicians, lawyers, sales â€“ they generally all have degrees in Bullshit, with First Class Honours of course.
Reality is, they couldn't help a pig out of the shit they have created. Everything is always strung out to the n-th degree, whether it be Planning, Permission or whatever, no-one is likely to make a decision, until!
There is another meeting to ratify which was already ratified, but could be subject to change! All I say I would hate to be at sea in an emergency situation (which I have been) with any of those suit-wearing imposters.
105 Posted 26/06/2020 at 06:33:09
Their architect will be responsible for the design of the stadium, along with a team of engineers that will develop Meis's concept design into preliminary and final design. They might not appoint a third party but use their own in-house team.
The Club should also appoint it's own Project Management Consultants to ensure that the design intent is complied with, and this PMC would also have its own architect to do design reviews.
106 Posted 26/06/2020 at 12:52:57
2. Pattern's website says they have been invited to 'join the team led by Meis'. So what's changed?
3. Gavin  It is said that John Henry of LFC was talking to Dan Meis at a team owners' meeting in the US, when he noticed that Meis had 1878 tattooed on his forearm! There's a photo of it somewhere.
4. Derek  A tad harsh!
107 Posted 26/06/2020 at 13:10:22
What happens if the planners don't like the design or certain aspects have to be changed. This will now have do be done by someone who didn't design it in the first place. Very odd decision.
108 Posted 26/06/2020 at 13:24:19
109 Posted 26/06/2020 at 13:53:45
With regard to your scenario; the new architects have lots of experience in dealing with UK planning requirements, so the decision isn't odd when you know a few more of the facts.
110 Posted 26/06/2020 at 14:02:09
Now in my 73rd year of support, I fear it has all come too late for me... but I do so hope I shall have time enough to be called on to apologise for my cynicism rather than reluctantly screaming 'I told you so'!
111 Posted 26/06/2020 at 14:47:30
Bill unfortunately is or was never comfortable with success for his supposed team. On or off the pitch he can only handle second rate players and second rate ground moves. Couldn't even get that over the line. He's done more internal damage to us than Heysel ever did. Total inept curse that won't stand down because of his ego. I can't stand the guy.
112 Posted 26/06/2020 at 15:52:53
If that's the case then it's a good business decision.
113 Posted 26/06/2020 at 15:53:49
Laing O'Rourke was given the contract for design and build on February 9th 2020. Pattern are now being given the task to make sure that the complete design that has been submitted,once it has been approved, is followed, unless due to changes that may be required by UNESCO Heritage Sites laws.
Everton will still be involved in the build through their new ground director Colin Chong.
It appears Meis was offered a position on the build of the new ground but whatever went on between him and the club, turned it down.
The building plans that are waiting for approval are all Meis designs, and any changes that may have to be made, would have still had to be made, even if he was still the leading architect.
I am not saying there was no interference from the club in this matter but once the plans were submitted for approval it was out of their hands.
114 Posted 26/06/2020 at 16:00:12
115 Posted 26/06/2020 at 18:21:50
Understandably, Meis won't have that view. Conversely, he doesn't run Meis Altruistic. His outfit has made a nice slice of change over the last couple years. He'll miss out on a chunk of the 100s of millions ahead, true enough. He has other irons in the fire.
In the end, once the new home opens, Meis will have his own, earned and deserved, place in all of it. 20-25 years from now, who will care who built it? Moshiri will get all the credit. Again, earned and deserved.
Haven't paid much attention lately to the new stadium goings-on, so it was good the subject has come up again. Meis did the business the last couple years. Pattern has been involved with him for 8-9 months now (Thanks for the info Bill Gall), and it's over 4 months since Laing O'Rourke got their contract. Everything moving along smoothly.
Since those 4+ years ago Moshiri got involved, he's:
- bought up all the shares available
- consolidated the debt into an interest-free loan
- increased our sponsorship income
- bought the Liver Building's top floors
- purchased the property at Bramley-Moore
- has everything in place to build Everton's new home
- just awaiting the final go from the City
He's come up Aces.
The same 4 + years on the player side, has seen the chaos we're still not out from under. Hopefully, Brands-Ancelotti are the team to bring the mess on the player side up to match the Club's positive, distinct, forward movement on the commercial side.
116 Posted 26/06/2020 at 18:50:48
Nail on the head. We have dispensed with the architect before planning permission has been granted! It would be one thing to let him go once it was all agreed and ready to build - though I would have thought it prudent to keep him involved until the end as there are always problems that need ironing out. But what if planning permission is refused? It will be back to the drawing board with a different architect!
117 Posted 26/06/2020 at 19:48:46
Everton have not dispensed with Meis, he is still the Architect who submitted his designs to be given to the Governing Planning Authorities to examine. If they are refused I am sure that a Billionaire like Moshiri with another Billionaire behind him, have made sure that the contract that was signed by the club and Meis, was scrutinized by lawyers to cover all conditions in the contract, including problems that may need ironing out, or refusal, and that Meis will be responsible to correct these problems.
The problem that has seemed to become the talking point is not in Meis design, it is in the build stage were it seems that Laing O'Rourk the contractors for the build, prefer to have a U.K. architect on board, to make sure the designs ( if passed ) are followed.
I personally don't think the Meis design will not be refused but there may be some minor adjustments that Meis will be responsible for.
People do not become Billionaires by not carefully watching who you give contracts to, and the more money you have, the more lawyers and accountants you get, to make sure none of it is wasted.
118 Posted 27/06/2020 at 11:26:35
Just hope it's not a fiasco that only benefits the contractor.
Thanks for the plans, Mr Meis.
119 Posted 27/06/2020 at 13:35:01
That's a good summation for me.
The only thing I'd add, and this is sanctimonious as hell, is this is disappointing because it feels dirty.
Everton is a Club to be proud of, for me. EITC, the family type feel (even for the red-headed shite adopted Americans), the history, all of it.
I'm certifiably not objective with my opinion in this instance. I fled corporate America because of the “it's just businessâ€ mentality. “It's just businessâ€ for me is code for, “We know we just fucked you, we know it's shitty, but there's reason XYZ that's in our best interest for why we're doing XYZ.â€
I don't subscribe to that theory of conducting business. It's shitty.
When I see someone basically state Everton have done exactly the above, my heart sinks a bit.
It's not the first time one of my sports teams ownership groups have done something where I covered my eyes, and it won't be the last. It's going to happen. I don't have to like it. I don't like what just happened.
120 Posted 27/06/2020 at 13:35:55
121 Posted 27/06/2020 at 17:59:21
I think we should keep in mind that we only have Meis declaring this. We don't know those words were actually said by Moshiri or anyone Everton.
Meis has just gotten the word he's out. In his ride with his people on the way to the airport, red-faced, cursing and damning Everton. Everyone quiet, Meis still going on. Finally, his #2 speaks up, "Dan, we have other irons in the fire. Come on, it's your design. We'll get the credit for it. It's just business."
Could be something like that happened.
Now, I'm not denying that an image of Meis entering a dark wood, subtlety-lit room, finding Moshiri (with that damn dead-eyed smile of his) sitting behind his big desk, pet cat on his lap, occurred to me. With Ryazantsev standing silent and glaring over by the window.
Besides, a cursory glance at Meis's record of success in winning bids over the last 25 years to me means some other architectural outfit was on the receiving end of, "It's not personal..."
122 Posted 27/06/2020 at 22:03:54
123 Posted 27/06/2020 at 22:30:57
His PR for Everton was top notch, but and well never know, did he adhere to or flout the protocol as would have been agreed via Everton's legal and contracts and commercial team?
Another saga for the Everton Sagas of Bramley-Moore Dock.
124 Posted 28/06/2020 at 11:36:39
125 Posted 28/06/2020 at 11:47:14
126 Posted 28/06/2020 at 19:25:50
Agree with your comments on what Moshiri has accomplished up to date.
I am hoping his pairing with Brands and Ancelotti will finally get Everton back on track on the football side of things as he seems to have started to get the club that is Everton F.C. into a solid unit.
To me his formation on the board was so far the best moves and I know a lot of people are not happy with DDB with comments of what does she know about football. What they should realize that in an organization like Everton there is a lot of non football matters related to putting the final product on the pitch, that has to be taken care of. He has a director of the new stadium on the board. a director of football matters and an accountant.
The problem Everton face is the other lot over the park who supporters and media constantly boast about.
We have to improve our performances on the pitch to get into Europe, we cant sell our best players and hope Brands and Ancelotti don't buy unsaleable donkey's.
Ancelotti has only been with us since December.
Klopp has been with L'Pool since OCT 2015.
127 Posted 29/06/2020 at 10:04:10
Whilst I liked the work Meis had done and Dan himself seemed to be quite invested in the project personally, Pattern Design seem to also be a well-established sport and master-planning designer. As others have pointed out, the fact they are based in the UK may also have had some influence on the decision. I'm sure EFC as the Client will ensure they have someone within their team who is advising on compliance with the work the Meis has done to this point; no need to panic... yet!
128 Posted 30/06/2020 at 19:38:21
He also said that it was Lang o,rouke who chose patten And that has nothing to do with Everton who they select.
No fall out with Dan from the club, so everything going to plan.
129 Posted 01/07/2020 at 03:29:33
Also, Meis says he's no longer involved in the project and it's "one of the greatest disappointments" of his career. So it appears there is a falling out as it seems from Meis's comments that Everton have awarded the PMC contract to someone else.
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