Kean in hot water after breaking shutdown rules

Sunday, 26 April, 2020 289comments  |  Jump to last

Updated Moise Kean looks to be facing a fine as high as £160,000 by Everton after video clips of a late-night "quarantine" party hosted by the 20-year-old were picked up by the press.

Everton have released a statement expressing their dismay that one of their players, believed to be Kean based on newspaper reports, defied self-isolation orders from the club and advice from the Government over social gatherings during the Covid-19 pandemic.

The Mirror, Daily Star and now the Associated Press say that Kean held a "lockdown party" at his Cheshire apartment that was attended by models and friends who engaged in lap dances and other close contact in private Snapchat footage.

“Clearly Moise and his friends didn't think the rules applied to them like they do the rest of the country," a source said to be 'close' to Kean said:

“The party was absolutely wild and went on until the early hours.”

Kean has had issues over professionalism in the past, with the Italian FA rebuking him for showing up late for training last year, and this latest incident has prompted the following statement from Everton:

"Everton FC was appalled to learn of an incident in which a first team player ignored Government guidance and club policy in relation to the coronavirus crisis.

"The Club has strongly expressed its disappointment to the player and made it clear that such actions are completely unacceptable.

"Everton has regularly stressed the importance of following all the Government guidelines - including rules and advice for inside and outside of the home — through a series of official communications to all staff members, including players.

"The amazing people in the NHS deserve the utmost respect for their hard work and sacrifice. The best way to show them respect is by doing everything we can to protect them."

Kean has reportedly apologised for contravening the orders but is unlikely to escape a fine that could be channeled into Everton In The Community, the club's official charity.


Reader Comments (289)

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Eric Paul
1 Posted 25/04/2020 at 22:28:27
That's Moise Kean gone.
Paul Hewitt
2 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:12:38
Get rid. Can't be arsed with stupid people.
Michael Lynch
3 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:27:14
Oh dear. How thick is that kid, posting videos of himself? Still, it answers the question of what we do with him in the transfer window.

Shaun McGough
4 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:29:45
Protect the NHS... slaughter this prick.
Kase Chow
5 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:30:27
Crap on the pitch.

And a prat off the pitch.

Can we please get rid?

(Why do we sign SO MANY duff players?!?!)

Mike Gaynes
6 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:35:32
Brain dead. Ship.
Tony Shelby
7 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:50:51
Two words:



Jim Potter
8 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:03:36
I think his bell end may end up infected with more than Covid-19 by the sounds of his female 'guests'.
Brian Williams
9 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:19:36
Eric @1 beat me to it. That's him gone ASAP.

I wonder whether he's done it to help speed his departure or is he just a fucking complete idiot?

Marcus Reynolds
10 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:25:04
Taxi for Kean.
Minik Hansen
11 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:26:20
Young and rich... Just need some adults around him that can make him more calm? Maybe someone like sir Alex Ferguson type. What a shame this, otherwise such a talent.
Brian Williams
12 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:31:56
It's on just about every newsfeed there is. With very little else (sportwise) to report on, the sports media will have an absolute field day with this.

So embarrassing for a club that does so much work in the community.

I can't see any way back for him after this, to be honest.

Patrick McFarlane
13 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:41:13
He's not alone though, is he? Experienced and older professional Kyle Walker did similar, not an excuse for Kean but the media will go heavier on him due to not being at an elite club. Ancelotti and Ferguson won't suffer fools so he's gone anyway.
Liam Reilly
14 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:48:04
Idiot, but he's young and made a mistake in a very tough time for everyone but perhaps he doent yet have the perspective of a seasoned professional.

We've all made mistakes, so maybe cut him some slack, the key is that he doesn't do it again.

Derek Thomas
15 Posted 26/04/2020 at 01:16:08
Bored 20-year-old with too much time and money on his hands in - 'Acts like dickhead' Shocker.

Never saw that one coming, you could've knocked me down with a feather, he's not that sort of lad etc, etc.

Liam @14; Yep, we were all dickheads at 20, but this is the 3rd one we know of. Can't see him getting too many more chances.

Maybe Baxter, Green, Kenny, Drenthe or somebody can have a word.

Though it sounds like a job for Duncan... a nice friendly fist round the throat and up against the wall usually gets their attention, or it did when I was an apprentice... and at 20 that's all he is, a very expensive Italian apprentice.

Phil Lewis
16 Posted 26/04/2020 at 01:48:43
I'm absolutely delighted that Kean has thrown this party, provided no innocent people have become Covid-19 positive. Because hopefully, it may prove that the club has the right by law now, to instantly dismiss this spoilt ignorant brat, for gross misconduct and get shut of him without penalty.

Idiots will whine "Oh, he's only a kid"... Well, my grandchildren are half his age, yet they realise that people are dying and observe isolation laws. His actions disrespect not only our laws, but also his many dead fellow Italian countrymen.

He arrived here with a reputation from Italy of unruly petulant behaviour. Are we really such total mugs to believe for one second, that Juventus would release him for such a modest amount, if he had any sort of promising future?

Get real, we've been taken to the cleaners. Big time. Act now, Everton, get shut. I believe he's another flop anyway, so let's cut our losses and cash in while we can. The more he plays the more his price tag will plummet.

It reminds me of James Beattie all over again. With the crowd willing him every week to improve, until they finally had no choice other than to concede that he was useless. At least Beattie behaved himself!

Never in a million years did I ever see myself siding with Graeme Souness, but that has happened twice recently. Firstly when he raised questions and doubts on Match of the Day about Moise Kean's talent and temperament and Juventus's reasons for selling him. And secondly when he surprisingly praised Alan Ball, as the greatest midfielder he ever faced. Saying Ball was as good if not better than any of the International so-called 'Superstars', he came across playing in Italy. Putting Ball on a par with the best of the Brazilians.

Souness was spot on about Alan Ball. I'm afraid to say that I believe his comments on Moise Kean will prove correct also.

Wonders never cease... Piers Morgan will be attacking the Tories next on Good Morning Britain!

Jack Convery
17 Posted 26/04/2020 at 02:02:37
Makes it easier to sell him. You would think that, with the death rate in Italy being what it is, he would have the commonsense to behave. He's more likely to go as Carlo seems to have his mind on buying an experienced striker to go alongside Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison. A Specials lyric comes to mind – Much too much, much too young.
Jay Wood

18 Posted 26/04/2020 at 02:25:02
Phil, can't agree with your (and others) readiness to bin Moise Kean with immediate effect for his admittedly imbecilic behaviour.

But your story of Souness and his admiration for Alan Ball gives me an excuse to flag up that today April 25 is the 13th anniversary of his passing. Brian Labone died a year and a day earlier on April 24 2006.

Two greats, greatly missed.

Mike Gaynes
19 Posted 26/04/2020 at 02:57:28
And in other news about the brain-dead, Arsenal plans to resume training:

Justin Clark
20 Posted 26/04/2020 at 02:58:15
Dumb move no doubt, but I wish all the people here had ToffeeWeb to scrutinize every dumb thing they did when they were 20.
Kieran Kinsella
21 Posted 26/04/2020 at 03:50:45
Justin 20,

Funny thing is, there are so many on here who defended Dunc when he was jailed, but Niasse & Kean fuck about in quarantine and there is zero tolerance. If I were a cynic, I'd think there's a double standard based on form and or “standing”, but of course I couldn't possibly comment.

Kieran Kinsella
22 Posted 26/04/2020 at 04:02:03
And before anyone piles in. I'm classified as an “essential worker” so yeah I'm working with the public every day.
Steve Brown
23 Posted 26/04/2020 at 05:11:24
He is one more strike away from getting sold. But as Jay says, it is a bit premature to bin him for acting like a 20-year-old lad despite him acting like a moron. Fine him big time.

There are plenty out there every day flouting self-isolation.

Dave McDowell
24 Posted 26/04/2020 at 05:36:12
Hoped for a Ravanelli seems he's a Balotelli.
Alex Carew
25 Posted 26/04/2020 at 05:49:04
A nice case of Covid-19 (minor of course) in 2 weeks and Kean becomes a hero as the Premier League is declared null and void. 😂
Darren Hind
26 Posted 26/04/2020 at 06:32:18
Post 21

"Funny thing is, there are so many on here who defended Dunc when he was jailed, but Niasse & Kean fuck about in quarantine and there's zero tolerance. If I were a cynic, I'd would think there's a double standard based on form and or "standing", but of course I couldn't possibly comment."

Didn't realise so many were logging on to TW in 1995.

Mike Kehoe
27 Posted 26/04/2020 at 06:32:19
Not sure comparisons to Dunc are valid: he was jailed after a minor incident against John McStay, his third offence for sure, but it was hardly worthy of the label assault and prison was pretty much universally considered severe: no lives were placed at risk.

Double standards to an extent, yes, but he is in a very privileged position, as is Niasse, so more should be expected. He was definitely worth a punt but Juventus aren't silly very often. We need better.

Alan J Thompson
28 Posted 26/04/2020 at 06:49:40
Mr Brands should be on the phone now to his Mother who can give him what for while telling him how they are doing in Italy because of actions like his.
Sam Hoare
29 Posted 26/04/2020 at 06:58:25
I wonder if Richarlison had done this, or Mason Holgate, would the reaction be different?

Clearly very stupid behavior but 4 weeks in to lockdown, I feel a 20-year-old in his first year in a foreign country should be treated with at least the same standards shown to older, British professionals. Both Walker and Grealish have been caught out and both will not necessarily be ‘let go'.

Very silly move though for a kid trying to lose the ‘bad boy' tag he claims to have been wrongly given.

Jim Bennings
30 Posted 26/04/2020 at 07:05:05
I'm hardly surprised; since this crisis hit the world it's proved to me what I already knew, we are inhabited by a hell of a lot of stupid people that lack common sense and simple consideration for others.

As for Kean, I'm not bothered if he gets sold for a good price, all we ever hear is that word “potential” and it's a word that pisses me off and has only recently been taken over by “unprecedented” as my biggest pet hate word.

Let's face it, Kean is no Lukaku, we might have slagged Rom off but at 19 the big fella was banging in double figures in average West Brom and Everton sides every season.

Kean sadly looks like a penny short of a money box and, if you are going to be that, then you need to be something special on the football pitch – which right now he just ain't!

Bob Parrington
31 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:04:28
Whoever said you need brains to make money? Err, come to think of it, my dad when I was coming up to A-levels.

Dad was wrong, clearly. Some of these pro-footballers have absolute shit for brains! Looks like young Moise Kean fits that bill too!

Frank Sheppard
32 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:11:24
Stupid rich kid, stupid friends, stupid “models”.
Colin Glassar
33 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:11:45
What next, fireworks in his bathroom? One “why always me” Mario Balotelli is enough. Don't release him, sell him!!
Martin Berry
34 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:16:22
Some slates missing off the roof at the moment for this lad.

Personally I could not careless about the player now, I am more concerned with the awful message he has put out and also the dragging down of the club's excellent reputation.

I have no doubt Everton will react extremely robustly to this episode.

Robert Tressell
36 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:51:59
Sam and Kieran make good points. My initial reaction was that's probably it for Kean at Everton. Perhaps not. Wonder what the club is doing to look after its young lads, especially those very far from home. Does Kean have family around?
Alan McGuffog
37 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:08:16
Not defending him for one minute; if we could recoup our losses, I wouldn't shed one tear.

One has to question the role of the clubs in all this. Now I realise that the days of putting young players in "digs" with Mrs McGurgle are long gone. Didn't always work either (George Best) but surely the clubs have to have some pastoral role to play?

I didn't go abroad until I was in my 20s. I never drove a car on the continent until my late 40s yet here we are... a young lad is given a fortune in wages, accesses a fast car (probably) and has a flat in RHOC country, miles from his place of work. His " friends" will doubtless be hangers on and wannabee WAGS.

Did the club set up this lifestyle for him, at this tender age? I seem to recall Duncan kipping on Dave Watson's couch in Grappenhall for a while after one of his adventures.

I would love to know the support and advice that is offered by club. But, like I said, I won't shed a tear if he goes and he'll end up as memorable as Per Krøldrup or Royston Drenthe.

Steve Shave
38 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:11:44
I thought the same as Brian, I think he's done this intentionally to accelerate his departure. Yes, lots of people are flaunting the rules but they aren't high profile footballers who then film the fucking experience and send it around!!!!

He's been a shocking signing and a huge disappointment. I'm all for backing the kids but what has he done? If there have been glimpses of talent, I must have blinked and missed them.

He is trying to influence his departure, sadly a power that these players think they hold these days. I must admit to silently judging him during the winter break when he employed a professional to film him pissing about on jetskies at swanky villas. Fair play, he was on holiday and unwinding but flouting wealth like that to the fans that follow him online just pisses me off.

I've woken up to this news and am clearly in a bad mood this morning so apologies for the rant. Get rid as part of a deal with Napoli for Allan or swap with Roma for Ãœnder. We can look to the boy from Celtic as a decent replacement.

Bobby Mallon
39 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:20:21
Kieren Kinsela,

Big Dunk never ever put his own or thousands of others lives at risk and he loved the club.

Ray Roche
40 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:22:39
Sam, re Walker and Grealish, both older and more experienced. No excuses for them. Kean should be read the riot act and given a final warning. Plus any disciplinary action the club deems necessary and appropriate. If he needs “company”, let him help out in a hospital for a couple of weeks!

Incidentally, Grealish is the guy photographed on some Greek party island lying face down in the gutter, shitfaced, and then, years later, reportedly, crashes his Range Rover into a number of cars before legging it to avoid the Police. And some advocate signing him.

Dave Abrahams
41 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:32:46
Well, Duncan Ferguson might have been the wrong example to compare with Kean's foolishness, very extreme foolishness. What about Jack Grealish, the Aston Villa player who did exactly the same as Moise a few weeks ago, but a few on here wanted to sign him?

The lad's bang out of order, let's see how the club deal with him, “Let him who is without sin” and all that!!!

Les Moorcroft
42 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:34:29
Not had time to read all the posts. I feel he knows what he has done and wants out. At this moment, he'd be no great loss to us. TTFN... if the price is good for us.
Phil Lewis
43 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:50:07
Joe Royle, Bob Latchford, Graeme Sharp, Gary Lineker and others. Real men. Truly prolific goalscoring centre-forwards, whom I have had the honour to support. All thorough gentlemen. Fine role models and examples to youth, how to perform on the pitch and behave off it. Wonderful ambassadors for our fine club. What on Earth have we come to?

They must shake their heads in bewilderment at the bizarre antics of this overpaid overrated nonentity, who has brought shame to himself and in turn EFC.

I make no apologies for the anger I express. This is much more than a footballing matter. I have personally lost friends to this illness. Health workers have lost their lives for us. Others put theirs on the line every day. We are in a war against this virus.

How can we as Evertonian parents instruct our kids how to behave in this current climate, when one of their idols, not only disrespects other people, the NHS, care workers, his employers EFC, and then puts himself on social media to brag about it.

Steve Ferns
44 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:54:54
The club has used very strong words. It portrays that the club is outraged with his behaviour.

And that's all. I doubt there will be any real consequences. If he scores in his next game, it'll all be forgotten about. He's a young boy, and is incapable of being a role model. How many other 20-year-olds are sticking stringently to the lockdown rules? I see loads breaking it everyday on my daily bike ride.

I doubt this changes anything. He's a foolish young boy who needs to grow up. More importantly, he's a very talented young boy who's struggling to adapt to the UK.

Mark Dunford
45 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:01:23
Bored 20-year-old with more money than sense, dubious friends, and a promising career that seems to be tanking, gets into trouble. Not a great surprise, yet stupid all the same.

The club has a pastoral duty with Kean more than with others – Brands said as much when we signed him. That said, they can't police his every move so are right to take any disciplinary action.

Kean's career may well be rescued by his impressive compatriot but, more likely, he'll be farmed out on loan or sold at the first serious opportunity to protect his value. Could easily be the new Sandro rather the replacement for Lukaku that we hoped for. We should all avoid that.

James Byrne
46 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:06:52
I don't know what is more stupid, holding the party or allowing someone to make videos and letting them out to social media! I would imagine other young players around the country are holding mini parties with their friends without getting caught!

For some of these young and possibly foreign players, seeing our parks full of people in the sun over the weekend, hundreds gathered on Westminster Bridge on a Thursday evening and now nurses making TikTok videos, it is easy for them to lose grasp of the situation we are all in.

It will be interesting to know what communications are being made between club and players so they understand the rules during lockdown.

James Marshall
48 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:08:45
Moise Kean has a party at home — Sell him! Disgraceful! He should be ashamed! Protect the NHS!

Jack Grealish gets pissed, drink drives, crashes his car during lockdown — we should sign him, he's class.

Double standards all over the place on this one.

As a side-note: I bet Kean still didn't score.

Paul Tran
49 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:10:49
Ferguson was sent down by a Scottish court because he played for an English club. An easy target.

They're all false comparisons because, back in the day, I suspect we didn't know as much about what players got up to.

The real issues about Kean are that he isn't getting much playing time and, when he's on the pitch, he isn't cutting it.

We can get money for him to buy someone else, if that's what we want to do. If he goes, they'll be the real reasons why.

Robert Williams
50 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:13:17
RT 36,

Yes, whatever happened to "We will take care of your son, Mama Kean"??

Rob Halligan
51 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:13:39
What Moise Kean has done is totally wrong and deserves whatever punishment coming his way. As Steve says, though, you've only got to go to any local parks and you will see groups of young kids mixing freely.

I live a 2-minute walk from Calderstones Park, and walk our dog in there most days. The amount of kids you see is unbelievable, especially with this warm weather we're having, actually sitting around with what looks like picnics or playing football. There are police cars who patrol the park every so often, but it doesn't deter anybody mixing in the park.

This lockdown is getting really frustrating, and the longer it goes on, more and more people will be inclined to "break the rules". Everyone has just got to be patient, abide by the rules, and we will get through this.

Dave Abrahams
52 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:17:02
James (48), Well, if Moise didn't score, he had some very ungrateful guests!!
Ray Roche
53 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:21:53
Rob, I've been saying to friends over here in Wales that the problem sector of society is not the over-65s who are observing the 'social distancing' rules, it's the youths and teenage group who, in general, appear to be totally ignoring them!

Every day when I go for my exercise walk, I see youths sitting together laughing at things on their phones, talking, lying in the sun etc, as they have always done.

No change whatsoever in their behaviour. Yet it's the older generation who will remain in 'lockdown' for the longest. Irritating is not the word.

Jerome Shields
54 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:29:40
'Italy, here I come. '

Obviously immature and in the wrong company for a Professional Footballer. At his age, who wouldn't, given money and unstructured time. Even if he stayed at Everton, he will be hounded.

Tony Everan
55 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:34:59
He's been an idiot. There's no excuse, he's seen what other footballer idiots have done and the damning negative publicity that follows. He should have more common sense and be more aware of the responsibility that lives side by side with his immense privileges. His actions can set an example for a small minority of other impressionable kids. “If he can do it, it's cool... I'll have a go.”

I'm all for giving people a second chance, though. He needs to get online and deliver a genuine apology today.

The club must fine him and give 2 weeks of his wages to EitC or another worthy local cause.

Pat Kelly
56 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:36:19
The only talent this kid has is for being an ass. We don't need him. We have enough over-priced, over-paid wasters. He's has given the two fingers to the fans, the manager and the Club. He should never play for us again. Let's face it, we wouldn't notice he's gone.
Phil Lewis
57 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:37:02
Just reading through this thread. My couple of offerings were quite long-winded. I believe Kase (#5) sums the whole thing up perfectly in three very short sentences.
James Newcombe
58 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:42:03
Party full of girls. He still didn't score.
Tony J Williams
59 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:46:01
Phil 16, I remember James Beattie being pissed up and trying to fight a statue in Spain whilst cheating on his fiance. Had a quick Google search and found this:

Everton ace James plays away – Drunken passes at Costa club – Then he takes girl to his room

From Simon Wright In Puerto Banus. Pictures: Anita Maric.

ENGLAND soccer star James Beattie scored with a woman holidaymaker on an end-of-season booze bender on the Costa del Sol.

Striker Beattie, who is engaged, spent the night in a room with holidaymaker Jayne Evans.

The millionaire Everton player – celebrating the end of a successful season with team-mates in the Spanish resort of Puerto Banus this week – met the girl just hours after arriving for what turned into a three-day beer and whisky bender.

Surrounded by Everton pals, the couple downed beer and Jack Daniels whisky in the famous Lineker's Bar before heading for his hotel room.

On the way Beattie, to the amusement of other guests, staged a drunken mock fight with a life-size statue at the hotel's entrance.

Squaring up to the figure, he ranted and raved before falling into fits of laughter.

Once inside his room, Beattie is understood to have collapsed fully-clothed on the bed and fell instantly asleep.

Last night a friend of Jayne Evans said: "It's true. Jayne spent the night with him in his room.

"She says he collapsed as soon as he stepped in the room and fell asleep fully-clothed on the bed. He was so drunk he could barely stand.
Jayne just fell asleep next to him.

"Jayne has a boyfriend who she was supposed to be going to Portugal on holiday with."

The next day, Beattie, who plans to marry stunning girlfriend Sarah Rendle, 22, next summer, shared suntan lotion with Jayne as they basked on the beach.

Peter Gorman
60 Posted 26/04/2020 at 10:46:42
Kieran @21 - so you are comparing fans' support of a player who was sent to prison for an incident that occurred before he was even at our club to the fans' reactions to Kean and Niasse displaying embarrassing levels of selfishness and stupidity? Bit of a stretch that one.

Moise is a twat. He could be a good footballer one day, but I suspect he'll always be a twat.

And for those who say 'we've all done stupid things at 20', come on then, let's have some stories.

Dick Fearon
61 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:00:04
I would not sell him until we first hit him with a month or more's wages and double that for any others who in future drag the club's name through the mud. If nothing else, it would teach those bastards and their agents a lesson they would not forget.

Carlo has seen what this virus has done in his homeland and he should be first to put the boot into the ignorant swine.

Steve Shave
62 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:07:16
Peter @60,

I once slept in a ditch with a live chicken I had just liberated from the local poultry farm. However, a) I'm not a famous person supposedly setting an example to thousands of young fans; b) I'm not paid millions to do it; and c) I didn't boast about it afterwards in a way which might expose me.

Mike Oates
63 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:24:52
I can't understand the mentality, the intelligence, the arrogance of our so-called superstars. Don't they ever think that someone will take a video, a photo, whatever and he should be ashamed to have even thought of hosting a party. 㿞k a week; intelligence IQ: 0.

He's already shown in Italy and here that he's unprofessional. One more chance, if he screws it then he should be out!

Phil Lewis
64 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:25:04
Tony #59,

I thought Beattie was a hopeless footballer from the first time that I saw him in an Everton shirt. I had the same feelings about Kean from the word go. That is the reason for me drawing comparisons with the two of them. As certain sections of the crowd continued to support their respective dismal displays with cries of "Give him time!"

The antics of Beattie's that you point out are indeed unacceptable. Albeit, it would appear that such behaviour did not endanger life. Consequently, there is absolutely no comparison with this recent episode of madness from Kean when thousands of innocent people in this country and his own country are dying, because ignorant selfish individuals such as he flaunt isolation rules. Then, to top it all, show off such disgusting behaviour on social media.

I'm asking anyone who is making excuses for Kean on here right now one question. Would you still defend him if someone belonging to you died of Covid-19?

Barry Thompson
65 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:28:46
Could have been worse, Steve, you might have been owning up to: "I once ‘slept' with a live chicken in a ditch, such was its gratitude for being liberated from the local poultry farm."
Darren Hind
66 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:31:22
Some truly idiotic claims of "double standards" here.

I did not see one single Evertonian post that we should sign Grealish after he had been caught being a selfish little twat. He was slaughtered by the media and was forced to make a very public humble apology. Likewise, Kyle Walker was hammered from all sides. He too faced public condemnation... and the claim that Ferguson was defended on here after being sent to jail takes the biscuit. Did ToffeeWeb even exist back then?

In comparison, Kean has gotten off very very lightly so far. Like the other three, he should be condemned by every right-thinking person in exactly the same manner they were. He should also be made to apologise to all those Key Workers for showing them such disrespect.

I just wonder what those people screaming injustice and "double standards" actually think has happened to Kean? He hasn't been hung. He hasn't been deported, or banged up. A look down this thread will tell you he hasn't even been universally condemned. What I do see is a collection of half daft-arsed apologies for his daft-arsed behaviour.

If Kean does get murdered by the press, if he does get a massive fine and If he is forced to make a grovelling apology. He will, like Walker and Grealish, be getting everything he deserves.

This "we were all 20 once" shite doesn't wash. Anyone else caught stepping out of line or doing idiotic things when they were 20 paid the price... Kean is no different.

Ken Kneale
67 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:38:07
This guy has yet to win me over with his footballing ability. He has now lost any credibility points he could have gained. He is not the first or last player no doubt to be a fool, but an ignorant arrogant fool who feels they can follow a different set of rules in life-threatening situations to himself and others has no place at Everton Football Club.

After all of the good work this club has done with regard to Covid-19, we now have this as a national headline. I hope Carlo's judgement is as harsh as rules allow.

Peter Gorman
68 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:38:41
I want to agree with Darren but first we need to hear if Steve paid the price for liberating the chicken.
Tony J Williams
70 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:45:30
Phil, I wasn't really trying to disprove what you said, it's just the overriding memory I have of Beattie and I was trying to see if it was true or not... peace!
Ray Roche
71 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:57:50
Darren @66,

I agree with your post but, to be fair, there were numerous posts saying that Grealish would be a good signing etc. after he'd crashed his Range Rover in March.

He's got some previous, that lad, and he, at nearly 25, is another one who needs to grow up. Why do some of these guys think that they're above reproach? Compare Grealish, Walker etc to Coleman. Well, there is no comparison, is there?
As I said earlier, Kean should have the book thrown at him, he is an idiot who needs to understand what a privileged position he's in.

Phil Lewis
72 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:57:59
We are told that this pandemic is a war against this virus. During WW2, the country was in total blackout at night, to prevent German bombers identifying their targets. Kean has opened his doors to all and sundry, turned on his lights and shouted to the virus, "I'm over here, I don't give a shit for anyone except myself and I'm ready to spread your cause!"

In wartime, that was considered treachery. We hanged traitors. At the very least, we should discipline Kean. I for one would get shut of him at the earliest opportunity.

Billy Roberts
73 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:59:54
Jesus Christ... so it's the club's fault eh, they promised his mummy they would look after him, and they left him all alone in his mansion fuckin apartment whatever. Seems like he was doing alright looking after himself, doesn't it?

Hes only 20, he's still a baby, look at that James Beattie (horrific story that) and Duncan Ferguson when he played for Rangers 25 years ago!! Great comparisons.

Nobhead gets caught doing nobhead things. Deserves whatever he has coming.

stephen richardson
75 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:01:53
I feel so sorry for him. He's clearly not happy at our club; he hasn't settled here, is not getting playing time...

Why would he film himself at home? He's not that stupid.

Phil Lewis
76 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:04:55
Tony #70

Sorry, I'm on one today and really gutted for the innocents, especially the health workers, as I pointed out earlier, who have lost their lives because of this evil illness. So I'm a bit touchy. Forgive me. I've said more than enough on the subject, so I'm best shutting up now I think.

John Daley
77 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:06:25
More importantly, he's a very talented young boy who's struggling to adapt to the UK.”

You really shouldn't visit relatives in hospital, no more than 10 people can gather to pay their respects at a family funeral, you can't pop round to have a pop on your partner if the pair of you don't co-habit, but hundreds of bellends are permitted to loiter around outside B&Q looking to buy a new bog lid and footballers think they can host piss-ups for friends and thots? A couple of weeks of conviction and empty platitudes to those putting themselves at risk to perform key roles, followed by the predictable plummet back to self-interest and stupidity when boredom sets in and a bit of sun starts to toast dog turds in the back street. I'd say Moise Kean has ‘adapted to the UK' like a fish to that sea-creature-shagging, mute girls minge in Guillermo del Toro's ‘The Shape of Water'. He's balls deep in the modern British mentality.

Kean is from Italy, let's not forget. The country with the second highest death toll due to this disease and subject to the strictest and longest running lockdown in Europe. It obviously hit home hard for him. This is a player who was part of his agent Mino Raiola's ‘We Are One Against #Covid-19' campaign to help fund the purchase of face masks and respirators for hospitals in his home country:

You can also be a part of this initiative to help Italy and other countries. We can win this game as a team!"

Soz Mino, but your man has once again shown himself to be a weak link in his team, recreating his habitual role of coming off the bench late in the day to fumble about, trip himself up and look completely lost and oblivious to what the fuck is currently going on all around him.

He's basically been given a free pass for almost a full season of being pish alongside petty disciplinary breaches, all on the back of a handful of goals he bagged before even moving here and not a big hand either... more a mini Jeremy Beadle like mitt.

From what he has shown on the pitch in a blue shirt, it's the equivalent of some club thrusting 㾶m in Everton's face for Danny Cadamarteri back in 1997 because he bagged 5 goals in his first 7 games... and waltzed around that wheelie bin wrapped in a red shirt, ‘Razor' Ruddock... then slowly coming to the realisation he's not really some sort of ‘wonder kid' at all and he's actually pretty shite, but still praying to fuck he comes good so they can save a bit of face.

Peter Warren
78 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:10:05
Dickhead. Easy for people to come down on him; however, since he's been pants since joining us, I wonder if the people saying "Get rid" because of this incident also say "Don't sign Grealish", who did a lot worse recently.
Billy Roberts
80 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:26:04
Peter @78,

You're right, it's easy, he's making it dead easy with his "football" and his behaviour.

Paul Tran
81 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:30:15
Ray #71, this is a potentially interesting debate:

Where do we draw the lines regarding the behaviour/temperament of future signings?

Or indeed for the ones we've recently made?

Andrew Ellams
82 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:34:15
Paul, football fans are the most fickle people on earth. People will judge Kean more harshly than say Richarlison because of his performances on the field rather than the story in hand.
Tom Bowers
83 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:39:12
No matter what's going on, there will always be those who think nothing applies to them as far as guidelines and regulations are concerned. Stupidity knows no bounds.

We only have to look at the likes of Joey Barton, Balotelli and many other celebrities who continually do stupid things. Kean has certainly done himself no favours and one has to ask if he will be mature enough to stake a claim at Everton after this?

The height of stupidity has to be people who film themselves doing it. Really!!!

Michael Lynch
84 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:41:12
So have I got this right – Moise Kean has made videos of himself getting lap-dances off a chicken in a ditch?

I'm not sure that's even against the lockdown rules is it?

James Marshall
85 Posted 26/04/2020 at 12:51:52
I was his age around 1993, and we were doing way more stupid shit than this. Most of it illegal as well if truth be known.

Yeah he shouldn't have done it, and yeah it's reckless, and yeah I've been sat at home isolating for 6 weeks, but really I wouldn't have thought it was a sackable offence.

I'm not condoning what he's been up to, but really... 'storm in a teacup' springs to mind. As mentioned above there, are loads of people his age out mixing, and not social distancing which, let's face it, is his crime. The media are whipping it up cos there's fuck all to report on other than the lurgi, and I'll wager there are plenty of other young lads & lasses out there doing the same shit, they just haven't been busted.

Anyway, I'm off out for my state-sanctioned exercise break now, to think about other ways in which I can be outraged at Moise Kean.

Peter Gorman
86 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:02:20
"I was his age around 1993, and we were doing way more stupid shit than this. Most of it illegal as well if truth be known."

Not good enough, James. What exactly were you doing?

Dennis Stevens
87 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:07:49
Well, I'm truly shocked. Not by the irresponsible & reckless behaviour of some young footballer. Sadly, that's not even surprising.

No, I'm shocked by Darren's comments regarding the longevity of the site. Top of the page, Darren :

ToffeeWeb The Independent Everton FC Website Est. 1994.

Truly shocking, I wouldn't be surprised if the powers that be see fit to impose a suspension!

John Cook
88 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:10:17
I don't care if he was another Pele. Get shut of the dickhead.

We have been on here saying rightly that football doesn't matter during this crisis – just who the fuck does he think he is???

Also, these so-called friends are just as bad. If someone called me and said "There's a party going on" I would report them to the police.

Steve Guy
90 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:15:25
All doing crazy stuff when we were 20? I did some daft stuff but I don't remember endangering others, disrespecting the Company I worked for, disrespecting my family or my country.

It's a bollocks argument/excuse. I hope he does go to Milan or wherever and takes his crappy values and lack of decency with him.

Jamie Crowley
91 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:27:23
Just what we fuckin' need.

I really want this kid to succeed, and I see potential. But there's a pattern of behavior here that isn't good.

I don't mind "characters" in the locker room. I do mind distractions and players that can ruin team chemistry.

This kid needs to pull it together. He's been given ample opportunities.

Someone above made a Mario Balotelli reference. Kean seems to be on that road, and if he doesn't stop his ways, we'll all be saying the same about Moise as most have about Mario: What a waste.

Paul Tran
92 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:29:16
Steve, you got me thinking of the kind of crazy stuff I did when I was 20. It was 1984 and I put a fiver on us to win the cup. Not that crazy after all, even though the nights before and after that final were!

If you've got the BBC Red Button, you can see England v Colombia from the last World Cup at 3pm today. A cracking Yerry Mina performance and headed goal from a corner. Will we ever see both of those in one match ever again?

David Connor
93 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:35:42
Get rid ASAP. Yes, only a young lad and we've all done stupid things when we were young, but this is another level. Get what we can for him as he hasn't exactly set the world on fire when he has played. For the most part, he has basically been shite.

Who knows... we actually might make a profit on a player for a change, instead of losing shit-loads. I don't think the lad has ever settled at the club anyway.

Who knows... maybe he isn't as thick as we all think. There could be a method in his madness. Saves handing in a transfer request, doesn't it?

Kev Gibbs
94 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:39:56
Kean could do with having a chat to Billy Kenny or Josie Baxter. it might make him realise how hanging around with the wrong people can make your career go quickly down the pan. He needs to wise up and fast.
Peter Neilson
96 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:47:45
Michael (84), he was within 2 m of the chicken and it wasn't a member of his household.
Jim Burns
97 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:59:04
Phil Lewis - you have no need to apologise. I have first-hand experience of what you fear and your post @16 nails it.

There should be no debate on this if we are, as we are meant to be, Everton FC; get rid.

The only hypocrisy here would be for a club that has done such valuable work off the pitch for the most vulnerable in society, to then keep this player on the books earning fuck knows what for doing fuck all so far.

John Keating
98 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:06:27
Get him in. Hit him where it hurts in the pay packet big style and all money to the local NHS. Just tell him straight: one chance, like everyone else, then bye bye.

Does anyone know if our Players have done anything whatsoever to support the club and NHS so far? I see the Arsenal players have taken a small paycut. Chelsea players appear to have refused to do anything. Some other clubs' players have deferred part of their wages which in real terms means actually nothing.

I can't believe our lot haven't led by example.

Paul Tran
99 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:17:30
Even worse up here, John. The Hearts players (with the honourable exception of Naismith) are about to be suspended indefinitely for not accepting a pay cut. This situation is going to batter Scottish football.
David Hallwood
100 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:17:41
Slightly off-piste: but George Graham always used to say never sign a player from a bigger club because they think they're doing you a favour.
Ray Roche
102 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:22:26
James @95,

Go onto the 'Rumour Mill' section of ToffeeWwb and there you can scroll back over recent rumours. There is a piece on Everton being linked with Grealish from 10 April 2020 and numerous posts suggesting he'd be a good buy for us.

Brian Williams
103 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:30:59
"Savaged by Sooty" 😂😂😂.


John Keating
105 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:40:59
Hi Paul,
Yes, it looks bleak up in Scotland. Again, poor support from the players though accepting they're paid a pittance compared to the Premier League players.

Rangers seem to be embarrassing themselves with this witch hunt and quite rightly told to show the evidence or shut up. Small teams need that payment just to survive so understand the vote.

Hearts want restructuring asap to avoid the drop. At least my Hibs team appear to be doing something right with their new kit and plans for next season supporting NHS workers. No wonder Dempster pulled out of the restructure team!

Like Johnson, Sturgeon wants to lead the agenda and not be dictated to by vested interests. Call the season in the SPL and get clubs some money.

John Daley
106 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:42:21
“ I was his age around 1993, and we were doing way more stupid shit than this”

What? Failing to get a jump up after paying for 2 tickets to fucking Jurassic Park?

Unless you were spending the day clapping, cheering and getting all dewy eyed at one of David Koresh's weddings then you weren't recklessly encouraging the spread of an insidious sickness that could severely damage, destroy or end the lives of anyone unfortunate enough to come into contact with it.

Whatever people were doing in 1993 they weren't doing it in the midst, and with full knowledge of, a rapidly spreading worldwide pandemic that has resulted in a death toll of over 200,000 people in a matter of months, when the only thing they can do to help slow that death rate down is practice social distancing.

But, nah...who could resist risking lives in order to get a lap dance from a ropy arsed, fully dressed lass in fucking Aldi leggings and then post a video of it with the caption “Quarantine cleaning”?

storm/teacup springs to mind. As mentioned above there are LOADS of people his age out mixing, and not social distancing, which let's face it, is his crime”

So, ignoring measures put into place to help prevent loss of lives is merely a ‘storm in a teacup'...and can be justified because loads of other people are doing it as well?

And you called Darren ‘Donald Trump'?

‘What's the big deal? It's all just a storm in a teacup. Storm! Teacup! Put them together and let it sink in. Nothing a bit of bleach sloshing around the bloodstream won't sort out'

Tony Everan
107 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:44:12
John 98, I suspect there is no unity. There's a few players on our books that would laugh at the notion.

David 100, There is an element of truth to George's statement. I think that's why scouting has to be just as much about personality as well as footballing ability. Mental strength and professionalism attributes are often marginalised when choosing a player to sign.

It's a reason for trusting a manager when he wants to sign one or two players he “knows”. He has had an insight into their characters that is invaluable and will lead to a better chance of that player being successful for us.

Paul Tran
109 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:49:32
Yes John, an absolute mess up here with the SPL embarrassing itself over the dreadful mis-management of this farce.

As you say, Rangers won't provide their 'evidence'. One thing that's struck me living up here is how much the clubs (not just fans) have a strong dislike of Rangers. I wonder how much that has played in all of this.

Good news re Hibs, who are relatively well-run. We lived just off Easter Road 1989-91, so I've always had a soft spot for Hibs.

Conor McCourt
110 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:05:50
As others have said, he really is a numpty:

A – He has seen how some of his contemporaries have been rebuked for their actions and still flouted the rules.

B – And even if he knew he was doing wrong, he was still too stupid to cover his tracks, ie, no mobiles, trusting friends.

You would have hoped that Moise would be working as hard as possible during this time to try and get his Everton career going.

I am one of the few on here who still retains faith in his ability and hopes he will come good but the rumours about his professionalism, that he was angling to get Silva sacked and to what I perceive as Big Dunc's distaste for the lad are still in the back of my mind.

Get your head out of your arse and realise how lucky you are to be so fortunate to play for a brilliant club in the best league in the world... or it will be a Balotelli Mk 2.

David @100, excellent point and generally I feel we have had too many of those with big club egos without big club productivity, like Delph and Schneiderlin.

However, the likes of Digne, Gomes and Kean all had a point to prove so I welcome their signings, though the first two have the right character whereas the jury is very much out on Kean. We did okay with Barry and Kanchelskis though.

John Keating
112 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:12:41
Hi Paul,
The missus is from Leith so I don't have much say in the matter!

Hibs a lot like Everton in being very community-minded. We were all there in 2016 when they finally lifted the cup. The next day when they brought it home down Leith Walk to the Links was fantastic and as good as any Everton trophy procession.

Missus does my head in with the Sunshine on Leith at Hampden. Mind you, it was brilliant and a thousand times better than those arseholes across the park with their canned YNWA

Go on YouTube to Sunshine on Leith 2016 final – Really great!

Stephen Meighan
113 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:19:48
Poor on the pitch even worse off it. Get shut.
Paul Tran
114 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:20:10
John, I had a few Hibs mates at Hampden that day. I had a walk around Leith last year when I was working in Edinburgh. A lot of the old pubs are still there but lots of swanky gastropubs have popped up. Looking at the prices, I wished we'd kept our flat in Elgin Terrace!
Alan J Thompson
115 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:33:58
Steve (#62); That would be another chicken-and-egg poser and I really don't want to know which came first.
Dave Abrahams
116 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:37:02
John (112), great day for the Hibs supporters and a fantastic atmosphere at the end of that game when they sang that song “ Sunshine on Leith” with the Rangers fans nowhere to be seen.

Tony Kelly a great Everton fan had that song sung at his funeral in SFX, it didn't do Tony justice in the church, but when I watch it on Utube I know how Tony was mesmerised by the song and the Hibs fans, marvellous.

John Keating
117 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:48:15
It was a great game and better result-for the wife's family and me. Atmosphere was electric.
We were there a few years before when they won the league cup with our very own John Collins as manager.
I think that was the first time the support had sung Sunshine on Leith. It really was spine tingling

A bunch of hibbees come down every season for a game at Goodison and always have a great time - regardless of the result!

Always a good atmosphere at Easter Road usually because its mandatory to be half cut!

When Rooney was 16 or so we played preseason up there. Great week Dunfermline on Saturday, Graveson and Rooney taking the piss. Easter Road midweek, Rooney taken off before he got sent off!

Brian Williams
118 Posted 26/04/2020 at 15:52:40
I think I was one of those suggesting Grealish would be a good buy for us.
Great player (IMO) but I hold my hand up on a bad call in the grand scheme of things!
Darryl Ritchie
119 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:04:44
It could be that Kean wants to go; doing and pulling this dumb-ass stunt and then posting it online is his way of making sure he gets back to Italy.
Dave Abrahams
120 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:06:24
John (117) ‘Spine-tingling' was a good description of that day.

Me and a mate were in The Richmond last summer and we got talking, and finished up having a good bevy, with two men and their wives from Edinbrough.

I mentioned that Hibs game – one of the wives started laughing and said I'd touched a nerve... the men were avid Hearts supporters. But it never spoiled the night and we took them to Ned Kelly's to finish the night off and had a good sing song together.

Andy Crooks
121 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:22:30
We paid 㿊 million for a player who really is way short of any Premier League standard.

Over the years, I have defended players having thought I spotted a semblance of talent in them. I was never right.

Unfortunately, we have not only wasted our money on a player who is not only shite, and I mean utterly out of his depth, but one whose self-regard and jaw-dropping sense of entitlement mark him out as complete imbecile.

Yes, we all did stuff at 20 that we are ashamed of. I guess none of us earned 㿞 grand a week to encourage good behaviour, though. I don't think what he did should be underestimated. I will be ashamed of our club if this piece of shit ever pulls on a blue jersey again.

Steve Shave
122 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:26:37
For those of you that were asking, no chickens were harmed in my chicken liberation antics! That was some hangover though, I can assure you!
Tony Everan
123 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:30:15
Steve, Are you sure it wasn't a Kentucky Fried one, and the rest wasn't a dream?
Steve Shave
125 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:31:38
Entirely possible Tony.
Steve Shave
126 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:37:07
Kean's a funny one really, one of our most coveted (well in Italy anyway) and sellable assets yet he has been utterly dogshit for us. I see no evidence he moved forward an inch this season. Yet I'm sure plenty are interested.

I love a bit of transfer banter (Robert T and Sam H – please do chip in as I know you love it!) but it will be so interesting to see how we spend and what we spend because I am sure assurances were made to Carlo.

Koopmeijers (sp?) linked today, might it be that Brands is going to have to pick a gem and take some risks... and we can't go for the likes of Lozano, Ãœnder, Allan or Bellotti?

John Keating
127 Posted 26/04/2020 at 17:01:20
The Jambo's aren't that bad. A bit like the RS they have a sense if entitlement. Older ones better, younger ones a pain in the arse

Mind you we went up for a preseason a few years ago - Martinez and Lukaku time - think we won 3-1.
We had a great weekend and fair play we were made most welcome at Tynecastle by their supporters
A bit of a treat before kick off when my man Alex Young came out.
He was very frail but gave us a great wave

We've had dealings with both Edinburgh Clubs. Alex and George Thomson from Hearts and Joe Harper from Hibs, unfortunately he never really settled at Goodison

John Cook
128 Posted 26/04/2020 at 17:24:44
I can't stop thinkin about the stupidity of this character. On one hand, you see that aarl feller Captain Tom walking around his garden making 㿀 odd million for charity... and then you have this gobshite Kean.

I'd make him walk around his garden carrying his zimmer, it would be more than he's shown in a blue shirt so far.

Jay Harris
130 Posted 26/04/2020 at 17:47:37
It's not Moise Kean's ability I worry about, it's his temperament and judgement. The lad was said to be a potential Balotelli and that is being borne out in front of us.

The squad is already full of players with the wrong attitude and temperament. We need a couple of solid Lee Carsley and Gareth Barry types – not egotistic primadonnas.

I would give him his final warning and tell him to apologize to all those people putting their lives on the line right now.

Kev Pye
131 Posted 26/04/2020 at 18:10:59
Unbelievable that so-called experts think this very poor footballer, who would struggle getting in a good Saturday side, should get a sniff at my beloved club.
Jer Kiernan
132 Posted 26/04/2020 at 18:47:09
Hmm... If only Neil Ferguson (it's Darwinian – he looks like a buffon because he is one, ye see) in Imperial College was put under as much scrutiny as our Moise Kean.

Such an excercise in group think has never been partaken in the history of mankind as this folly... anyone concerned about their civil liberties? Empty hospitals? Thrashed ecomomy? While the very people supposed to be protected by the system perish in nursing homes.

I assume and hope we are putting as much effort into scrutinizing the societal changes as we are into this nothing.

It is a bit more important than healthy young folks at no risk from Covid-19 having a party. More power to them.

Dave Brierley
133 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:19:06
TJW @59 Just an update on James Beattie, Tony:

"James Beattie: 'I wanted to try and help somebody out'

Former England and Southampton striker James Beattie has told BBC Radio 5 Live why he wanted to help deliver food parcels to people self-isolating during the coronavirus pandemic.

Beattie told Drive presenter Tony Livesey: "I feel a little bit helpless in the house, so I wanted to get out there and try and help somebody in a time of need."

His volunteer work for the Saints Foundation involves helping in FareShare's warehouse and packing up the heavy food before it gets delivered.

This clip was originally broadcast on BBC Radio 5 Live Drive on Thursday 23 April 2020."

Beattie then was a young idiot who drank too much and let himself and his fiance down. Seems to have grown over the years. No particular danger (sadly not even in the penalty area).

Kean is nothing short of a disgrace. Deserves no sympathy from any of us. I don't rate him and would be happy to see him go.

Sean Kelly
134 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:37:57
Steve, I hope that chicken wasn't burgered.

I'll get me coat.

Billy Roberts
135 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:51:09
Jer @132,

I think you need to scrutinise the reasons for social distancing.

"More power to them" you say... really? More power to selfish idiots?

You do realise that these healthy young folk could be asymptomatic and could spread it amongst themselves, maybe one of them works with elderly people in a care home?

The people who have been neglected? They are only having a party though.

Brian Williams
136 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:56:05
"... healthy young folks at no risk from Covid-19..."

No risk? Check your facts, mate.

Peter Gorman
137 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:59:25
Jer wouldn't know a fact if he swallowed it with a cap-full of disinfectant.
Andy Crooks
138 Posted 26/04/2020 at 20:05:31
Jer @132, I know it's nice to take a contrary view and appear to be a bit of a free thinker but, honest to God, if you really, seriously think that was young folks having a party and more power to them – you really need to ask yourself "Do I believe this or am I seeking a wee bit of attention here?"

Really poor post.

Robert Tressell
139 Posted 26/04/2020 at 20:06:58
Steve Shave - I never need much encouragement about transfer banter.

Koopmeiners is an interesting one. Seems to have scored a lot of goals from a fairly defensive position and figured well I think in Alkmaar's strong showing (albeit in vain) against Man Utd. Good value, right age, left foot, captain of Alkmaar too, I think. So plenty to like.

The only thing is the quality (or not) of the Dutch League. I think Calvin Stengs, also of Alkmaar, could be a cracking signing but very hard to gauge. Jordie Clasie looked like he was the new Xavi at one point and got found out at Saints.

John Keating
140 Posted 26/04/2020 at 20:31:53
I see the BBC are having a vote on the greatest British football manager. Both Catterick and Kendall are on the list.

Hate to admit it but I voted for Shankly.

Sam Hoare
141 Posted 26/04/2020 at 20:42:59
Steve @126

As is item the case on transfers, I concur with Robert Tressell. Koopmeiners is an interesting one and could be good value but wouldn't be my pick. I want someone in the middle with real athleticism and power. An all-round player who makes lots of tackles but can also pass decently and carry the ball. Sangare, Rabiot or Zakaria would be my top picks.

I'll probably do my annual transfer piece in a few weeks as I'm bored!

Jer Kiernan
142 Posted 26/04/2020 at 20:57:37
Billy @135,

Yes, there is an extremely slim (think lottery win) chance that the youngsters who attended the party may be infected, and may pass the infection to somebody, who may be in the 10% who get serious symptoms and they may be an individual having at least 3 or 4 (think cancer, pnemonia, heart failure) serious underlying chronic health issues and they may die – all hypothetical.

Some people that will however die due to this lockdown (very conservative estimates of the UN that 3 million in the Third World will starve from the global economic crash) – I would love to hear your opinion on those "actual" agonising deaths of healthy young poor people??

Brian @136

If you think Covid-19 attacks healthy young folks with no underlying issues, you need to check your facts. You have been taken in by alarmist non-stories (lies) all over the media. Young people die of other causes every day, sad but a fact, if they happen to test positive for even asymptomatic Covid-19, their deaths are registered as such, it does not attack or affect the healthy. End of.

Andy @138,

No attention-seeker here – I just feel we need to take this thing seriously enough to not get distracted by mundane "rich footballer behaves badly" narratives, If posters have any energy they should be writing letters to their MPs asking them about Imperial College's appalling record on predicting these things (see Swine Flu: 65k deaths prediceted, 500 actual deaths, foot and mouth etc).

I also note how the "impartial" BBC, after 4 years of trying to undo the biggest democratic vote in the UK's democratic history, now has set about pushing this narrative as the only option. And still, after 5 weeks of this lockdown, not asked Ferguson a difficult question nor had a single dissenting voice on this issue heard, but they gave Bill Gates 40 minutes of uninterrupted airplay without asking him why he was booted out of India??

Yet Auntie is all over this story like a rash. As I said, this story is a nothing for me and people need to stay focused on things that matter, not this.

Brian Williams
143 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:05:32

Young people with no underlying health problems have died due to contracting Coronavirus!

Jer Kiernan
144 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:29:02
Brian @143,

Examples please? I have only seen false alarmist stories where family members have later come out to dispute, say in one case found the teenager had turned purple and clutched their chest and clearly died of a heart attack (sorry for the graphic descriptions) but this shit is important.

As I said, the number of deaths being attributed to Covid-19 (without autopsy, I may add) is shocking to me and also something you should be writing to your MP to ask – as opposed to getting miffed over this "event".

I am not willing to continue this discussion here as I recognize that this is a football forum where people come to escape but I just hope people's energies are not being diverted from what really matters here, and we are not looking for a scapegoat in the wrong place.

In times like these, this is a non-story for me, that is all. If we want to put somebody's professional behaviour, recent form, discuss levels and source of wealth and indeed past and present level of performance under pressure, then I would try Imperial College's own Rodney Trotter for a start.

Robert Tressell
145 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:37:57
Just had another look at Koopmeiners on YouTube. He hits a good left-footed ball over the top and takes a good penalty (hence the good goal tally). Nothing amazing.

I agree with Sam's list – and feel we missed a trick with Sander Berge and Guimaraes who both moved for not huge fees in January.

Quite a few better in Spain, Germany and Italy playing at higher level than Koopmeiners: Maksimovic and Arambarri at Getafe; Marc Roca at Espanol[ Eggestein at Werder Bremen. All eminently gettable.

Sam Hoare
146 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:39:32
Darren @66, if you want to see Evertonians post that they want to sign Grealish after his similar antics, you don't have to look far:

Grealish joins familiar duo as rumoured target

Kevin Prytherch
147 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:40:56
Jer - your 132 post is one of complete ineptitude.

There have been young people who have died, however, it's very unlikely. However, with a T-value of around 3, these young people at Kean's house could easily go to the supermarket as a carrier, brush past a 50-year-old, accidentally infect them and then they die. Just because they're unlikely to die at their age does not mean they can't carry it. I bet you'd think different if one of them was caring for someone you were close to.

There have also been countless accounts of relatively young people surviving, but going through hell first.

Billy Roberts
148 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:43:02
Jer @142,

So is it still lottery winning chances when you tell all young people to go out and party? Is it really, what are them lottery winning odds? 14 million to 1 isn't it???

So all the nation's young people can go out and party (not just rich footballers, of course) and the chances of increasing infected and needlessly killing someone is 14 million to 1?

This social distancing and lockdown is all a hypothetical notion? Really... it's not based on research and precedents like SARS???

Your idea of a global economic meltdown causing 3 million deaths sounds "hypothetical" to me and is irrelevant to the discussion except economic suffering. You moan about "civil liberties" in your first post, I'd say taking sensible precautions to protect people's health nationwide is something we expect of others, ie, a civil liberty.

You lecture about looking deeper into society's responsibilities and condescend other posters about this small matter – you are on a football website on a thread about a footballer breaking a lockdown? If the tone is below you, find a more highbrow website to discuss your ludicrous ramblings.

"More power to them" eh? I don't think so – and millions more would agree.

Peter Gorman
149 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:43:38
Jer - my missus works the ITU at our local hospital and has told me a few examples of teenagers with no prior medical conditions being admitted and put onto the ventilators. I suppose we could be generous and call them examples of no 'known' prior conditions but the same could be said of all of us, couldn't it?

Sorry that I've not got anything more substantial than anecdotes. I know that they don't quite hold as much authority as a David Icke YouTube sermon.

Mike Gaynes
150 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:50:06
Jer, you're just wrong on this. Young people are just as vulnerable to catching Covid-19 as old folks. The virus is equally contagious at all ages. It's the death rate that goes up with age, not the infection rate.

And yes, young people do die:

Hundreds of young Americans have now been killed by the coronavirus, data shows

And they also suffer permanent damage from lung destruction, strokes and organ damage.

But the greatest hazard of young people getting the virus is that most of them don't get very sick, frequently don't even know they have it. So they spread it. They pass it among their social contacts and bring it home to their parents and grandparents.

Mike Gaynes
151 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:52:51
Dave #133, also worth noting that, although Beattie and his fiance did break up around that time, they finally got back together and married in 2006. They have three children. So it does seem that he matured. Just in time.
Terry White
152 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:55:28
In defence of the much-maligned James Beattie, there was a reason we signed him – he scored a lot of goals for Southampton, including some very good ones. He got the Saints goal in the "Radzinski game".

Although he did not help himself by getting sent off early in the Chelsea cup tie and by putting on a few extra pounds, he still scored some crackers for us.

Bobby Mallon
153 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:58:21
Darren Hind @66, well bloody said – best post in here.
Peter Neilson
154 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:58:37

The "Bill Gates kicked out of India" story is pure ridiculous conspiracy theory. Lost me at that point.

Jer Kiernan
155 Posted 26/04/2020 at 21:59:13
Peter @149,

Examples of actual deaths is what we are discussing here, of which there is none. Now there is enough "my missus said" nonsensical non-evidence panic info out there in the ether, thanks. And to note it's not coming from "conspiracy theorists" like Icke but from the supposed respectable media, as you have just proved, which is the main crux of my gripe. It is possible, as you say, with all of us – we may have an underlying issue without knowing it, in which case, a serious flu affects us adversely just as easily.

Also, I assume she is aware of hospitals at minimal capacities (Nightingale etc) and the danger of people with serious heart and cancer issues, including the young and weak, who cannot now attend and this will of course cause innumerable deaths going forward.

And anybody who injects disinfectant into them has only themselves to blame. Maybe if the media reported the main crux of that press conference instead of Trump's burblings (ie, that that virus is wiped out by the Sun and UV rays) which is not a revelation but is both relevant (see Italy) and newsworthy? But no... let's talk about injecting Dettol?


You are right: this is not the time or the place, so I am going to stop. Do however check up on the UN projections for starvation in the developing world if we continue this. If we are going to concern ourselves with deaths, let us treat them all equally.


The article is behind a paywall; the lack of transparency in the deaths "of" or "with" Covid-19 should be a worry to everybody and in fact harms our ability to make rational decisions against this virus. I have seen or heard no concrete evidence of young healthy people perishing with Covid-19.

@Peter @153

Your input will be sorely missed.

Paul Hughes
156 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:00:38
Fine the soft get 3 months wages (at his original contractual rate), payable immediately to EitC, and get Dunc to have a quiet word with him. And put him on notice that, if he steps out of line again, he will be deemed to have broken his contract.

These circumstances are way different from transgressions by other players that have been mentioned earlier.

Peter Gorman
157 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:11:31
Jer - with all due respect, what my missus tells me she witnesses first hand on a ward where she is trying to keep several patients alive at once (some *gasp* young with no prior medical conditions) is not "non-sensical non-evidence (sic) panic info" but exactly what I said it was, anecdotal evidence.

Of course you are free to ignore it, I'm just a guy on the internet after all, but that would be at odds with what can only be described as your over-credulous personality when it comes to believing other things you read on the internet pertaining to Gates, Brexit, lottery probabilities etc.

Billy Roberts
158 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:18:09
Jer @155,

Fair enough, we agree to disagree. I too think that the biggest stain on humanity is people starving to death; let's hope the UN prediction does not come to pass. A worldwide concerted effort could prevent that, it is possible to address that.

First, though, we have to protect against unnecessary deaths due to Coronavirus, a blind person can see the logic being used to prevent a wildfire of infection.

Let's not get away from the crucial thing at stake here, the collapse of the NHS under an unmanageable infection rate. I will, like yourself, leave it at that, it's getting a bit distasteful.

Jer Kiernan
159 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:19:59
Peter @157, I don't envy your spouse's position; however, I am sure she is well accustomed to seeing people under all types of maladies all of the time.

As regard credulity, it is in the eye of the beholder. Gates's intentions for me are at best questionable, as is his family history. Couple of facts: he was ran out of India after increasing the number of vaccines in children from 5 to 50 and causing is own polio pandemic by his incompetencies, He also has no medical backround and the last I looked was not elected by anybody either, he is in fact a multi-billionaire from very powerful and influential parents, who built his wealth on dubious business practices.

If you want to take his words a gospel, it is up to you but there would be more than a bit of credulity involved in giving this guy such a platform without him having any medical expertise, no?

I am going to sign off but think we should all stay focused on the things that matter now – Moise Kean's social life not being one of them. He's a thick rich kid doing thick rich kid stuff, is all.


I agree on the hunger and hope indeed the UN are wrong on this. It is to our utter shame for me how we in normal times engage in "causes" around climate change etc while millions of our fellow creatures die for want of clean water. But that's another day's argument. Good night.

Robert Tressell
160 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:21:44
Quite a good number of football 'heroes' have domestic violence, drink driving, sex parties, GBH etc on their non-footballing CV. That's before you get to the Ched Evans / Adam Johnson end of the spectrum. I feel stronger now than I used to.

Basically, if any of us got up to the same mischief, we'd be sacked or ruined at a personal level. The money in football keeps them safe, which is a pretty unpleasant truth.

Would I tolerate Grealish and Walker for England? Not sure. Easier to say no for Walker because he's down the pecking order. I had high hopes of Grealish. As for him joining Everton, it's a bit of a moot point as so unlikely. I'd rather have Coutinho!

Have we seen the last of Kean? Quite possibly. And if we get rid for being a dick, then good for us (although I was very hopeful about his prospects). But we'll need to be consistent. So, if Richarlison messes up, then he'd be on his bike too.

Gordon Adie
161 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:24:19
May God forgive you, Jer. This virus has mutated and has now infected animals, which is the worst of all outcomes because it will evolve into something even deadlier.

Deny all you like but it is plausible that deaths could reach a billion... yes Jer, a fucking billion.

When death is creeping towards you, remember your words.

Brian Williams
162 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:28:33
"I have seen heard no concrete evidence of young healthy people perishing with COVID-19, therefore, it can't be true."


Jer Kiernan
163 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:29:46

I am sorry to hear that has happened but why would God need to forgive me? It is not my fault if it has mutated. Maybe God should forgive the Chinese Communist Party for their cover-up but I had no hand or part in this... where is the logic in that?

Thanks for the heads-up, I will await my impending doom (unlike yourself by the sounds of it) with as cool a head as is possible. I assume it will have the same mortality rate still, though: 0.01%.

I hope our Governments and leaders do the same as panic as proved recently helps nobody ever. :)


I have seen nor heard no concrete evidence of young healthy people perishing with Covid-19, therefore it must be true. WTF???

I am off to bed. Good night.

Paul Birmingham
164 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:38:46
I sense that there's more to this and the player has broken club rules and maybe is creating a rift to get a move.

I don't see many takers though but rules are the rules and he's damaged the Everton name.

Young and free but, in such very difficult times for the world, such selfish acts will add fuel to the misery and Christ let's hope that a vaccine – 12 months plus according to the CMO in the government –and standard ways of checking people for the virus will be available soon.

Stay safe and well everybody.

Gordon Adie
165 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:41:03
I have cancer and many other ailments, Jer. My doom is anticipated.
Jer Kiernan
166 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:54:03

I am sorry to hear of your diagnoses and I hope this Covid-19 does not infect you. I also hope you are able to avail of cancer services should you need them which is not now the case and may not be for a while or in future.

Everybody's doom is anticipated; I myself have two chronic health disorders which leave me susceptible should I get Covid-19. However, I would prefer to have my freedoms than live like this (that is just my own opinion).

I don't believe it will be a billion, Gordon, or anything close and even if it is, panic is not going to make the slightest bit of difference to a virus and helps nobody, ever.

I hope you stay safe as above and you don't suffer from either Covid-19 or the economic fallout that could result in a very poor heatlh service at the end of all this.

I hope you can stay calm where possible as stress is very detrimental to heatlh also. I genuinely wish you the best.

Good night

Steve Shave
167 Posted 26/04/2020 at 23:25:41
Agree, Robert and Sam, I think a punt on an up-and-coming centre-midfield from the Dutch league is too risky, we need to ensure that signing is mint! Allan all the way for me.
Ian Smith
168 Posted 26/04/2020 at 23:32:03
Here in New Zealand, the rugby players have their contracts owned by New Zealand Rugby Union. At first, I thought it was a barrier to teams' development. But the more time passes, the more I think there is potential in this concept.

If say all professional players had to be given licence to play, then Moise Kean right now would be in some serious crap. If the only threat our club has is to sell, well then, he goes somewhere else and still earns in a week more than any average NHS worker earns in a lifetime.

But, if he had the threat of having his playing licence suspended or cancelled by Uefa or Fifa etc, then his only option would be to. I am sure there would not be too many players who would get to this stage. The governing bodies could have a panel who judge the player's value at current price and reimburse the club as such.

I am sure having a threat like that over some players – Moise, Suarez – would soon have them thinking more responsibly about their high profile status and high wage packets.

If one good thing comes out of this Covid-19 crisis for me, it's that we now have a decade of "local heroes". This decade should be for the "Good bloke" and "Sound Lady", it's taken a 99-year-old to show us the way, so what sort of state are we in!!!

Jerome Shields
169 Posted 26/04/2020 at 23:54:03
Most fans have problems with overpriced valuations and huge wages that players are on, especially since they seem in some cases to be quite irresponsible with little accountability or regard for their actions and the effect it has on the clubs they work for. This attitude seems to be reflected in their attitude when they play for their clubs also.

Maybe this current crisis and its aftermath is the wake-up call they all need.

Mike Gaynes
170 Posted 27/04/2020 at 00:13:50

The Bill Gates/India rumor is false and not a "fact" at all. Neither Gates nor his foundation have been kicked out of India, but continue to operate there today with the full approval and partnership of the Indian government.

This is not behind a paywall:

Mike Gaynes
171 Posted 27/04/2020 at 00:21:27
Gordon #165, my deepest and most heartfelt condolences on your situation.

I'm in remission from an incurable form myself, and just hours ago I lost a close friend whose cancer never gave him a chance. We both know that, as bad as Covid-19 may be, there are things that are worse. Stay strong.

Paul Jones
172 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:32:37
I recollect that Alex Ferguson was reported to have gone to the home of one of his fledgelings to break up a party. The player allegedly concerned went on to have a long career.

The issue for Kean is more that, from what we've not seen on the pitch, there does not seem a great talent to waste... so he's more likely to be moved on for that reason.

Jer Kiernan
173 Posted 27/04/2020 at 00:37:57
Mike @170,

Thanks for the link that I have read with interest. These are very sensitive times and people are very worried, they have been scared shitless by a campaign of sensationalism and some more sinister stuff also, I would offer.

As above, this is not the place for such arguments as is a football forum but I was wary of our Moise getting scapegoated for the public's ire for what, in comparison to the actions of some who seem to be above reproach, is a misdemeanour.

I just had a quick look at some of the contributors to said site and they are at best questionable "fact-checkers", if you are willing to accept the "party" line (pun very much intended) that comes out of who is up to you, I prefer to take things on merit and am aware how easily big institutions can be corrupted, and the more trust that is erroneously placed in them, the more damage that corruption can do. Have a look around you.

Regards Gates, make up your own mind. All I would say is this: If your father were a carpenter it doesn't necessarily make you a carpenter. However, if you had made trillions as an IT guru and spent the last 30 years and trillions of dollars funding and making wooden tables all over Africa, then there is a good chance you are also a carpenter.

Regards, and I look forward to getting back to arguing with yourself and others about over-priced footballers as soon as possible and wish you all the best in your current battle.


Eric Myles
174 Posted 27/04/2020 at 02:10:38
Terry #152, and when he left us didn't Beattie go on to be the top goalscorer in the Championship? Something he put down to finally getting the service from teammates that he needed to be in a position to score.
Eric Myles
175 Posted 27/04/2020 at 02:18:53
John #140, Clough every day of the week for me.
Terry White
176 Posted 27/04/2020 at 04:07:53
Eric (#152), Beattie went to Sheffield United on leaving Everton and was the joint runner up for the league's leading scorer in his first season.
Tony Heron
177 Posted 27/04/2020 at 07:40:51
BBC couldn't wait could they? 1st item on sports news today. Well done Moise, that's got us in the headlines. Nothing about the fabulous EITC work, just this idiot. Ciao Ciao Moise.
Alan J Thompson
178 Posted 27/04/2020 at 07:44:09
Ian (#168);

Not a wicket keeper, are you? Union players under contract to New Zealand Rugby Union would be mostly Kiwis and Islanders, wouldn't they, and while any breach might stop them playing in New Zealand, would it preclude them from playing for a non-New Zealand club?

While I don't condone Kean's poor judgement and behaviour, I think a line has to be drawn between that which is an offence under law and that which affects his employment as set out in his contract. However, this being a sport where contracts are bought and sold, it is a matter for the club to assess, among other things, his character and the likelihood of a repeat. As a poor timekeeper myself at that age, I don't include that as reason to terminate, in whatever way, his employment.

David Cash
179 Posted 27/04/2020 at 08:30:28
I think there are false parallels being drawn with Grealish.

On the day the story broke about the Villa man flouting the lockdown laws, he was friendless. I don't think anybody came on here or any other club's forum to say they wanted to sign him. The rumour mill thread sprang up nearly two weeks after he had been punished and been forced into a very public grovelling apology.

Those who were aware of his actions would maybe have felt his humiliation was enough and the incident was now in the past. Time to talk about his football again.

For me, it's illogical to talk about ToffeeWeb "Double standards". I see no evidence of it. I have not seen one individual call for one judgement for Grealish and another for Kean. There are simply people with differing opinions as to how acceptable or unacceptable the behaviour of both players has been.

If Kean is punished, holds his hands up, and shows contrition as Grealish has done, the majority will forgive him and, in 2 weeks, people will be talking about his football again.

David Midgley
180 Posted 27/04/2020 at 08:38:19
I don't care what happened to the chicken.

Under any circumstances whatsoever, this is still fowl play.

John Graham
181 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:03:49
He's a dick head and his name is Moise Kean.
He's a dick head, we don't want him in our team.
He's a dick head, send him back to Italy.
He's a dick head.
Sam Hoare
182 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:15:44
David Cash @179, only had a quick look but I think there are individuals who were calling for Grealish as a player for us to sign who are also condemning Kean.

I don't see what difference a forced apology and two weeks makes. Kean will be punished and will no doubt be similarly forced to apologise.

It also seems highly likely that Grealish was drink driving which I'd say makes his crimes far worse than those of Kean.

It seems to me that maybe people's judgement of a player's footballing ability has some effect on their judgement of what degree of idiocy they are prepared to tolerate. Which stands to reason. But is a double standard of sorts. Something I myself may well be guilty of.

Dale Rose
183 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:43:17
Gordon #165.

It's never over until it's over. Best of luck to you mate.

Rick Tarleton
184 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:49:25
He's 20 in a country where the language seems to be a struggle. Yes, he's behaved stupidly, but I'm 73 and the stupidity of many of my actions when I was 17-23 don't bear thinking about.

How good or bad he is or may be is totally irrelevant. Fine him, admonish him and move on.

Michael Kenrick
185 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:51:40
Maybe it's a good thing that, each time Jer Kiernan hits the keyboard, he digs ever deeper into the pile of utter shite that swirls inexorably around his head. Because otherwise, it pains me to think that we would be culpable in providing a channel for his irritating conspiracy nonsense.

His response to being provided with repeated and direct evidence by Mike and Peter that contradicts his Covid-19 young immunity claim is shocking but unfortunately a classic knee-jerk of those who simply will not be disabused of such false notions. Think flat earth...

Of all the garbage he's posted on this thread, I'll pick just one: the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

I'm no Microsoft fanboy but what Gates and Warren Buffet have done with substantial portions of their vast wealth is surely to be admired and appreciated rather than castigated by an ignoramus who has probably achieved nothing in his life. Yes, there may have been missteps along the way, and things done that some will not agree with – but none of us are perfect. I'm astounded by the boldness it takes to condemn such good works.

The saddest aspect of the internet for me is the freedom and gullible audience it has given to the fringe cranks but, like the phishing traps my IT group send me sporadically, confronting this nonsense helps us maintain our faculties for critical thinking and spotting the fruit loops amongst us.

Mike Galley
186 Posted 27/04/2020 at 09:54:08
Dale #183

Bet you're feeling a little cock-a-hoop with yourself after co, I gotta up with that witticism!!!

Mike Kehoe
187 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:07:46
When I was 20 in 1989, I got really drunk and made a ham sandwich and, in a torrent of raging hormones and a complete absence of insight, I used salt & vinegar crisps instead of plain: I don't even like salt & fuckin' vinegar crisps. So Moise, we've all been there, mate.

Darren Hind, I really wish you would just say what you mean instead of your impenetrable mist of suggestion and innuendo. Just saying...

Tony Everan
188 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:20:35
Really well said Michael @185, your post was needed on this thread and articulates very well what the vast majority of us on here are probably thinking.
Jer Kiernan
189 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:21:45
@Micheal 185

The fact you resort to mud slinging says it all for me, I haven't seen this before usually your interventions are measured and informed but you clearly haven't a clue what you are talking about in this instance.

The so-called cases of "morbility" rate that have been peddled are fear porn by the media and have a devastating effect on the families regards funerals etc and there is zero evidence it is any more risk of morbidity than a flu to young and healthy people.

"His response to being provided with repeated and direct evidence by Mike and Peter that contradicts his Covid-19 young immunity claim is shocking" – Read the above interaction please and acknowledge that nobody has provided concrete evidence that young and healthy people are susceptible to Covid-19 morbidities as they are not, they can say it as many times as they want, it doesn't make it a fact, and facts right now are extremely important and in very short supply.

As I have said the WHO and chiefs of medicine have a responsibility to not only the public but the victims of Covid-19 to ensure the death counts and stats are conducted in a precise manner, yet they are admittedly marking down any deaths "suspected" as being Covid-19 as being actual Covid-19. This is a fact they openly admit it... This is insanity.

How the hell are we supposed to make rational decisions about what is a matter of international importance while this continues?? We need to know the size and scale of this thing to do so.

Make up your own mind about Gates, I have researched his backround more than most and said what I feel is just an opinion.

People's focus on this time should be on exactly what we are discussing now, yet the BBC say nothing of it. Yet they are all over Moise Kean like a rash?

Feel free to delete my post /account etc if you so wish. I am indeed digging myself into a hole here as this is not the place for such a discussion and I am now sorry I brought it up here. I have acknowledged this above and would prefer to walk away.

Prof Niel Ferguson, who has dug us all into a large hole, has an extremely poor record on this stuff and, if you haven't checked this morning, he is about to start shovelling some more. Moise Kean's indiscretion pales to insignificance.

I will make this my last post and apologies for hijacking a football forum to discuss such things and for any offences caused.


Craig Walker
190 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:31:58
My 81-year old mum has to stay indoors and hasn't been able to see any of her family, grandkids etc since before lockdown. If she can abide by the rules then a spoiled, petulant, overpaid footballer can surely do the same.

Not good enough for Everton FC on the pitch and sullying the club's good name off it. Get shut and cash in whilst some Italian clubs are still interested in taking him back. Use the money to get somebody in who is proven.

Joe Corgan
191 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:32:55
Yet another thread on a football forum descends into silliness because we now live in a society where everybody is an expert on everything.
David Cash
192 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:33:37
Hi Sam,

I think most people who saw Grealish's apology would have believed it to be genuine. I believe you are right, it was forced. but forced by the player himself. He looked totally ashamed of himself. I think people forgive more freely if they believe the contrition is genuine. Although I do accept the possibility that he was only ashamed because he had been found out.

Two weeks can indeed make a difference for a transgression such as this. Once a player has been condemned and punished, as Grealish was, I think most fans would consider the matter closed. There is very little point in continuing to beat him. His crime, like Kean's was one of stupidity rather than malice.

When I saw the rumour mill thread being put forward as "proof" of TW double standards, I expected to see many many posts calling for Grealish to be signed. So I checked it out. There were actually only about half-a-dozen posters who said they wanted it to happen. You, as you admit, were one of them.

Those who wanted him to sign didn't factor in his transgression. They based their opinions purely on his ability.

I like and respect your work, Sam, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see very little evidence of anybody applying double standards.

Tony Abrahams
193 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:39:13
I know it's different times, but what will Duncan Ferguson say to him?

"Look kid, we all make mistakes, I was on loan from Rangers to Everton, and couldn't even stay in the night before a Merseyside derby. I actually got done for drink driving, but you know how it is, I scored the next night, and became an instant legend, probably because I was a bit of a boy, and Evertonians love that."

The kid has made an idiotic mistake, but football has been indulging this type of selfish behaviour for years, so it will be more interesting to see what our club decide to do with Kean in the longer term...

Mary Coleman
194 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:49:04
The Club won't do much, he won't go anywhere, and, rumour has it he has the same agent as Brands!!!
Martin Nicholls
195 Posted 27/04/2020 at 10:51:18
Rightly or wrongly, Premier League footballers are seen as role models by thousands of kids and therefore have a massive responsibility to behave accordingly. A 20-year-old Premier League player simply cannot be compared to the "average" 20-year-old.

If the police have the powers to do so, I think they should have made an example of Grealish – a simple 2 of 3 days in jail would have sufficed. That said, I suspect they do not have such powers which takes me on to our very own Moise Kean.

I would like to see our Club very publicly offer Kean the choice of maximum fine they can impose or an equivalent period of voluntary work with NHS. Given the attitude he seems to have, I suspect he'd opt for the former.

So far as Jer is concerned, I hope he will now finally follow up on one of his numerous "this is my last word on the subject" promises. For me, Michael's response #185 hit all the right notes.

Dave Williams
196 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:01:55
Moise is a young lad living away from his family in a foreign country where he probably has a limited number of people he can talk to and his grasp of the lingo isn't too good.

What he did was crazy, sets a bad example and he deserves whatever punishment the club sees fit to impose. That should then be the end of it – we all did irresponsible stuff at his age due to immaturity, boredom or just because we felt a bit too big for our boots; just because he's a footballer does not make him immune from making these mistakes.

What is clear is that he needs someone to get a grip of him before it's too late. Remember how Gascoigne went off the rails because Spurs were a bit free and easy with him and everyone wished he had gone to Man Utd, where Sir Alex might have clamped down on him and saved him from himself.

Moise needs guidance, most likely a father figure – whether it would work who knows but the signs are there for the club. Carlo is probably not the right man for this as manager – he needs someone by his side constantly which Carlo can't be. I haven't a clue who that man is but we should give it a go before it's too late.

Harry Williams
197 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:04:52
#193 - Tony

Moise Kean to score in a derby, no chance.
Moise Kean to save our club as a player or manager, no chance.
Moise Kean to captain Everton, no chance.
Moise Kean to lead Everton's front line, no chance.

When he does all I the above then maybe he will be a legend!!!

But don't bet on it. Moise Kean is just not good enough!!

Sam Hoare
201 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:30:07
David @192; it's not a big issue but, because I'm stubborn and a bit bored, I have to contest and say there were more than half a dozen; not that many as rumour mill threads tend to not get that many posts but probably 50% of those posting. And at least a few (who also feature on this thread) who were keen and clearly did factor in his transgressions.

Examples (not named because there's no need):

"Maybe his antics will help keep his price down, then it depends if Carlo thinks he can mature him. Remember the deal that West Ham got with Di Canio."

"Said ages ago Grealish would be a great signing for us and still believe that (despite his recent antics) but he's way out of our price range now."

I'd be interested to see a Villa fansite's reaction. I'd be very surprised to find more than 50% suggesting the club should get rid of him. Even before the apology.

I agree that stupidity rather than malice is the problem here. But I suspect that fans' abilities to forgive and forget may bear some correlation to the perceived talent of the player in question.

Tony Abrahams
202 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:42:33
Different argument Harry, but I'm sure if Duncan, does have a word with Kean, then he will be telling the kid, how much better he would have been but for both injury and also application?

The kid's been selfish, immature and stupid, he's going to get fined obviously. I hope the money goes towards the Everton project that's looking after so many people in the community right now. The only other thing that's going to happen now is that we will either sell him or just move on.

Not making excuses for Kean because it's impossible but early on, when footballers were getting a lot of stick for doing nothing, I'd already read that he was providing medical equipment for people in his home country who were suffering so badly at the time. So he's obviously got a heart, but he's also missing some much needed common sense in these very testing times.

Dave Abrahams
203 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:47:33
Sam (201), I was one of those who volunteered an opinion on Jack Grealish. I think I said there was no doubt about the lad's ability as a footballer but there were doubts about his maturity. Also, there would be a few top clubs who would take a chance on signing him, so that would rule out Everton's chances of signing him.

I still think any club who signs him in the future should have a very good look at who they are signing. He could be a great signing, or it could turn out the other way... and he won't come cheap.

Joe McMahon
204 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:53:31
Sam @201, I fully agree. Everyone has made a stupid mistake, even footballers in the public eye. Wayne Rooney came back 3 years ago, was taking 𧵘k per week from Everton, but it didn't stop him drink driving with a young lady that wasn't his wife.
Jay Wood

205 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:56:48
I think it would make for great pay-per-view TV to see and hear what both Mama Kean and Carlo Ancelotti say to the lad.

I fancy it won't be gentle, given the Italian connection and what both his home and host nation are enduring.

Andrew Laird
206 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:02:59
This thread is now aptly about a petulant, misinformed, oblivious, attention-seeking pillock. I would also like to hear his thoughts on 5G.
Sam Hoare
207 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:25:21
Dave @203, I'm also on the thread saying I'd be happy enough to sign him. He'd be great in our team. Won't happen though I don't think.

Joe @204, yes I thought about mentioning Rooney. Every case is different of course but he's another who's shown dubious character in the past but was welcomed back here by a fair few.

Kean was clearly stupid but I don't think what he did was necessarily worse than either Grealish or Rooney. Ultimately I suspect that if a player is producing the goods on the pitch a lot of fans are prepared to forgive a degree of imbecilic behaviour. No-one's perfect. The line that cannot be crossed will be different for everyone.

Brian Williams
208 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:47:27
I don't see any point in signing anyone just yet as the world's going to end at a quarter to four (pm) on Thursday.

It is, honest!

Andrew Laird
209 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:53:00
Wow Brian 208.

The Mayan calendar really was specific!

Dave Brierley
210 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:55:06
Michael@185 A rather disappointing personal attack on Jer I think.

"Maybe it's a good thing that, each time Jer Kiernan hits the keyboard, he digs ever deeper into the pile of utter shite that swirls inexorably around his head. Because otherwise, it pains me to think that we would be culpable in providing a channel for his irritating conspiracy nonsense."

I think what your culpable in is providing a medium for people to express their views, regardless of whether you or the majority of posters agree and I congratulate you and Lyndon on allowing these threads to evolve into far more important issues than just football.

If I were you, I'd have a closer look at your site disclaimer which states:

"We encourage active participation in the site but ask you to treat other posters with dignity and respect."

Brian Williams
211 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:55:30
Well, give or take a coupla' minutes Andrew. I mean don't shoot the messenger if it doesn't end til say ten to.

Not that you'd have much time like!

Dave Abrahams
212 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:15:18
Brian (208), well there goes your 17 bottles of Desperados, they say every cloud has a silver lining!!
Conor McCourt
213 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:18:04
Jer, I have done a lot of reading from mostly non-governmental promoting sources and, until now, haven't really offered a view because it is such an emotive subject that you are onto a hiding to nothing.

I too am convinced lockdown is counter-productive, that the media has been the goverment's voice and that the UK Government in particular has mishandled events.

However, I realise that the majority do not share my views and so, for the peace of mind of family, friends and society, I have observed every measure suggested with total diligence and 100% compliance.

This is where I have a problem with Kean's behaviour. In all likelihood, he believes he would be putting people at risk but is too selfish to worry. He is someone who has had the loyalty and support of the fan base and really can't be seen to be unprofessional again considering his output. It makes the club look bad, especially since they do so much in the community, and it's a real slap in the face for victims' families who see these footballers laissez-faire attitude. If he wanted a few friends around, he should have had the brains to make sure it wouldn't get out as no doubt many others have done likewise.

Everything that applies to Kean, I would also say about Grealish but, knowing how he has led his team and the positive character he's displayed at Villa for the last few seasons, it wouldn't put me off signing him one bit. It was an act of really poor judgement; he was punished, ridiculed, perhaps will miss out on an elite move and showed real remorse. If you were watching Jack's desire, commitment, bravery, quality and the example he sets on and off the pitch every week instead of some of the mercenaries we currently watch then I'm sure there would be few doubts about him being fit to represent our club.

Dave Bierley @210 - absolutely superb post. Perhaps Michael protecting the Gates foundation is part of this global network conspiracy and soon ToffeeWebbers will be asked to be chipped and vaccinated instead of logging on lol.

Ray Roche
214 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:24:59
I think that Kean should be severely disciplined by Everton and then given the chance to apologise. He's been a complete and utter dickhead but no worse than Rooney or Darren Gibson. The only slack you can cut him is due to his youth. Rooney and Gibson were older and should have been wiser.
Peter Gorman
215 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:29:18
"We encourage active participation in the site but ask you to treat other posters with dignity and respect."

A good point, Dave, somewhat undermined by your disrespectful gibberish spouted at me on the Niasse lockdown thread.

Personally, I find people like Jer fascinating. On the one hand, his inquiring mind is laudable, it is just so closed as to be frustratingly limited.

When I presented him with anecdotal evidence, it was dismissed out of hand as 'panic info'. Okay, anecdotes aren't the best form of evidence but I could upgrade it to a testimony from my other half, though that's unlikely since she has better things to be doing. Mike received a similar short shrift.

His response to Michael is that all the evidence presented to him is not 'concrete' evidence – yet I will go out on a limb here and suggest that the evidence forming his opinion is nothing more than yet more anecdotes in the form of conspiracy theories.

I'm ready to be corrected of course; perhaps he has been to India and worked closely with Bill Gates. Maybe Jer is an esteemed academic who has long waged a crusade against mere hacks like Prof Niall Ferguson, with a substantial body of research to back his claims.

Or maybe nothing he believes is based on anything concrete. Who can say but Jer, but we are unlikely to get an answer as he has stopped posting on this subject. About six times already.

Going back to a previous thought; can all those who claim to have done 'similar' or even 'worse' things than Moise Kean when they were but a lad please be so kind as to present their stories so we can all be the judge. So far we only have a couple.

Dave Brierley
216 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:30:55
Many a true word, Conor.
Dave Brierley
217 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:44:52
"Disrespectful gibberish" Peter?

Just re-read what I wrote and by no means was it gibberish.

Paul Tran
218 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:06:31
Conor #23, you've articulated my thoughts on Grealish perfectly. I'd happily see him in a blue shirt for the reasons you stated.

I'm also thinking of that poor family in North London who lost a loved one to Covid-19. The poor lad was 13 years old.

If the lockdown is an international conspiracy, what's it trying to achieve?

Eddie Dunn
219 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:16:32
Michael @185, I must echo Dave Brierley in defendng Jer's right to his opinion. I often don't agree with his posts but think he has a right to express his opinion.

In these football starved days, various threads are bound to become full of the virus related issues. It is easy to dismiss any conspiracy theories by putting them all in the same boat. Recently Eamon Holmes was castigated for suggesting that mainstream media was not giving fair coverage to the (supposed) link between Covid-19 and 5G. Whilst I think there is no link between the two, it is typical of the mainstream to use such crackpot theories to discount all other conspiracy theories. There are many out there and some are more plausible than others.

My son works in a factory making electrical devices for hospitals and read all about the virus in China in its infancy. He warned his colleagues of the impending pandemic, only to be ridiculed. The information he was getting was on Reddit, a home for all manner of conspiracy theories. His mates ridiculed him at the time but now have apologised for not taking it seriously.

There are many bits of info we are not privvy to and investigations will be had into the government's handling of the crisis. A good example of misinformation from government and media sources is the nonsensical criticism of the usefulness of masks. This was done clearly to stop the public from buying masks that the NHS might need.

Instead of simply asking the public not to buy them for personal use because the health service needs them more, they decided to suggest that they might be fairly crap at preventing the virus reaching you because you might touch the mask and then your face! Pure propaganda.

On the subject of the thread, I think Kean is a petulant, selfish so-and-so, but I can see why young, fit people, who may not know folk who have died (I know 2 personally), think it really is just a big inconvenience. Many young people think this way.

He needs to grow up fast as he is getting himself a reputation as a loose cannon. However, I think a big fine is the correct punishment. I hope he can put it behind him and that he can show us all more of what he can do. I think he has got talent and with a bit of luck, his confidence will grow.

Brian Williams
220 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:21:34
I too am convinced lockdown is counter productive.

Conor I'd really like to know why that is as I've seen and read quite extensively that the lockdown and social distancing is/has reduced infection rates and is/has therefore reduced deaths and reduced the load on the NHS. I don't believe everything I've seen and read is a cover-up and is merely propaganda.

So I'm genuinely interested to know why it's counterproductive?

David Cash
221 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:36:58
Haha Sam. You are incredibly competitive but sorry. It is nowhere near a 50/50 split. Out of the 29 posts on that rumour mill thread, 15 either say he is going elsewhere or don't even mention him.

Among the few comments which did deal with the possibility of him coming to Everton are;
"He's a bell end. Leave him where he is."
"Proven idiot"
"Temprement in question:
"One to avoid"
"I would pass"

Even one of the few examples you could find has been retracted by that poster on this thread and withdrawn as a bad call

Sorry, Sam. I have enjoyed the debate but I'm a million miles away from being convinced.

Keep safe, mate.

John Keating
222 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:39:13
It is open for debate what Kean had done and what will happen.

However, in my opinion, more important is what our squad has done – or not done – to support the local community, NHS and also the Club.

There appears to be a deathly hush.

Si Cooper
223 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:47:55
To Jer, Conor, Eddie et al, nobody has even tried to hide the fact that there are major downsides to the current lockdown.

I have no particular opinion on Prof Ferguson but he is not alone in his advice on how to contain the spread of this virus (and yes Jer, even people who are not personally stricken by the virus can spread it and thus endanger those who will be and that is the most important point) with most countries introducing restriction of movement and social distancing as a minimum.

In Spain, which was initially hit much more badly, everyone under 14 has apparently been effectively under house arrest for 6 weeks. Is that Ferguson's, our government or the BBC's doing?

We have lost well over 20,000 people who are confirmed to have been infected and there has been a definite spike compared to what is considered normal. How much worse would it have been or will it be without lockdown operating? No one really knows – and that is the point. This is risk assessment on the fly.

First of all, it's not much to worry about on initial data; then, with more time and information, the risk rating was elevated. With more knowledge, it will be revised further until it sits in the category of ‘known and understood'.

And that is the difference to the vast majority of all your other maladies, Jer. This was / is an unclear but present danger. To underestimate the threat was the biggest risk in our modern world of daily global travel.

Whether the existing threats get due attention is a moot point, and hopefully something that gets much more focus once we have got through the problem that is right up in our faces with attitude at the moment.

Paul Tran
224 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:52:36
The government is 'following the science', based on the stocks of kit and NHS beds at its disposal. That's why they've been talking about testing and tracing and now theyre actually doing it.

I've got my own mask for when I'm taking trains and planes again. There was a piece in The Times (mainstream media?) on how to make one. Easy. Or just use a thin, tight scarf. Do it that way and you're not pinching NHS supplies.

There's an interesting writer Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He predicted the 2008 economic crash, has spent the last five years talking about the threat of a global pandemic and has been recommending the use of masks for the past few months. Nerdy stuff, but very interesting.

Brian Williams
225 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:53:05
Dave #212.

They sell em on the other side y' know!

Having said that, you'll be drinking in The Angels Wings and I'll be getting pushed and jostled at the bar of The Devil's Fork.

Jer Kiernan
226 Posted 27/04/2020 at 15:00:19
Brian @220,

For some different perspective, I am not an expert just a concerned citizen.

Oxford "experts" who for some reasons (who have been counter to Imperial College's predictions on this from day one, including the 500k deaths which it appears Prof Ferguson had pulled out of his ass) have been ignored by Government and the Media, are stating now that the peak was April 8th, so lockdown had little or no effect, bar destroying the economy, reducing the chance of herd immunity, increasing the cases of herd mentality, and pushing people indoors and on top of each other where the virus thrives and survives. (In the latest lab tests, Covid-19 survives 6-8 hours half-life indoors versus 2 minutes in the Sun) read that again please?

This came out of the famous Trump (inject Dettol) presser that BBC thought should not be reported on seriously but used to bash Trump, now relay that to Italian/Spainish situation where large 3 generation families live in confined quarters and ask yourself where is the logic? Are they safer locked in doors all day, weakening their immune systems, on top of each other, or out in the sun, in a park where the virus barely survives???

Decisions that are takin in a state of panic are seldom good or well judged, but that's what the media is there for, right? To protect us from Government making hasty decisions that affect us all, and to put this stuff under a microscope?

I don't know for sure if lockdown was the right decision although I doubt it (we will see how many think so in years time??) but such things should have been discussed in a rational manner and not by panicked overgrown Adult Babies. Panic helps no situation ever and any decision only ever benefits from scrutiny.

Si @223

That is a fair and even-handed post and I agree fully this is a dynamic situation which is changing by the hour never mind the day. That's why I feel it is even more important the data does not get tainted in sensationalism etc and that "open" debate is encouraged, and why we need to as much as possible get the death count right. How can we criticize the Chinese Communist Party yet we doctor our own stats on the death rate etc? How can a decision we made 5 weeks ago not be for discussion in such a fast-moving climate?

Andrew @206

Another insightful well-researched post from yourself. My opinion on 5G is that it is 100% safe. Saying that, if you don't mind, I would prefer they erect the masts on your house if you don't mind? You're okay with that, of course, having researched it fully. ;)

Eric Myles
227 Posted 27/04/2020 at 15:36:42
If UV kills the virus, why are there cases here in Thailand where it is very sunny?
Eric Myles
228 Posted 27/04/2020 at 15:45:14
Brian #220, how can they say that the lockdown has reduced infection rates and death when they don't have anything to compare it to?
Gordon Adie
229 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:11:22
Jer 166, sorry mate, I was in frustration mode, we are all entitled to our opinions. Sorry.
Brian Williams
230 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:11:44
Eric #228.

I believe they're using, among many other things, figures from pre-lockdown to during lockdown. I think too that, although this a new virus, they can use modelling of other viruses that spread in the same way.

Obviously nobody can say (I don't think) with 100% certainty that lockdown has/or hasn't made a difference. It's like one of those, If he'd have passed to player A instead of shooting and missing player A would have scored. You just don't know but I think they can make informed assumptions.

And er, yeh, what our Chris is going to say below...

Chris Williams
231 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:11:56

They compare the transmission rate of C-19 before the lockdown with the transmission rate post the lockdown.

The rates were 3.5 to 4 people infected by one infected person before the lockdown. It dropped to 0.8 or thereabouts once full lockdown was imposed and has been consistently at that level since. About 5 weeks now.

We had a phased lockdown, with different steps every few days remember, and each step had an impact, but the big impact was the final full lockdown.

Interestingly the one with the smallest impact was closing schools.

I guess they'll take a similar approach when they relax the lockdown, at some point, but certainly not quite yet.

It's all on the Imperial College website and it's quite interesting to a nerd like me. Not just the UK, but pretty well every country.

They've got one that is updated daily and one that's updated weekly, so a lot of data feeding in constantly. Forecasts too, which I guess is feeding into the government's response, currently.

Incidentally, we must stop meeting like this!

Dave Abrahams
232 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:20:35
Brian (225), if I get up there in The Angels Wings, I'll try and arrange delivery of a crate of Desperado's down to The Devil's Fork.

By the way, instead of getting pushed and shoved in the bar down there, why don't you screw your nut and get a job ‘behind the bar'?

Brian Williams
233 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:21:28
Dave, they wouldn't trust me behind the bar, not even down there mate!
Sam Hoare
234 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:21:32
David @221. I am very competitive. But then so must you be!

I concede that you will never be convinved! (though surely 14 out of 29 is very near 50/50?)

All the best. Be safe.

Chris Williams
235 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:24:04

I should also say that the one thing you can say about models is that they are always wrong, but some are useful, but they are being refined and updated pretty much constantly.

Tony Abrahams
236 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:24:55
Interesting, Eric, I think Sweden will be looked at closely, and who knows, if we get a second wave, many more countries might even adapt their policy?

Air travel is my biggest worry. Valencia went to Atalanta and, when they got back to Spain, within weeks, six members of their travelling party had contracted this virus, but the Italian squad who were living in what was then about to become world epicentre of the epidemic, never had one case?

Maybe it was a fluke. especially because they scored four goals and therefore must have celebrated a lot more than the Spaniards, but the Italians were not so lucky in the stands.

It would be silly to say the lockdown hasn't prevented more cases, but I had mild symptoms for a couple of weeks, and yet the other five people in my house have had nothing, so until I get tested, who knows?

The most interesting information is that I was reading that they reckon half of all people in Stockholm, will have had this virus by the end of April, but again, how can these figures carry any real credibility, without testing?

Now we have got a Japanese Scientist, a Nobel prize winner, saying this has definitely not come from nature, and another report saying there is now a similar version of coronavirus, starting to be more prevalent in kids? (Very worrying)

Stay safe everyone, in mind, body and soul, and just because you run the website, it shouldn't mean you can't go heavy with your opinions, especially if you are giving people the right to reply? Well done again Michael and Lyndon, keeping this site open, with everyone's different opinions, is much better than listening to the news, imo!

Dave Abrahams
237 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:31:30
Tony (236), stop reading all those different ‘experts' – they'll do your head in.

Things can only get better for us, poor Brian over in Birkenhead could be locked in hell forever when this is all over. Brian, repent, repent and carry on repenting, it's your only chance!!

Brian Williams
238 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:35:53
Dave, I have mate. I've repented that garden fence three times in the last week.

By the way, I only pass through Birkenhead on the way to my country mansion. I was born there but since making my millions I try to hide, or deny, the fact.

Jer Kiernan
239 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:36:39
@Gordon 229

Please don't apologize, is not warranted I totally understand everybody including myself are tetchy lately, and I was a bit short with you, I just abhor the sensational way the media has blown the public into a panic and having people living in a state of fear.

It is good for nobody's health (physical or mental), it is totally unwarranted and doesn't help in any situation only to make proper decisions more difficult to make.

They then grab this lad who did an ill-judged act, I admit, as we all did when young, and fling him to be devoured by the lions??

While not a bother to ask Niall Ferguson about his fantastic wonderful "computer models" and what happened to the 500k deaths eh?? And maybe would be good to ask him about his prolific record of being dead wrong on this stuff (see swine flu, foot & mouth), for me, a better use of taxpayers money (who the BBC are supposed to work for, not the Government).

Please stay safe and well and I hope this will be settle soon either way
And take my genuine best wishes

@Eric 240

I agree on the theory of BIBO. They also make the assumption the virus hasn't been around since October which I think it has, also on hot countries it sounds counter-intuitive, however, I feel the virus will still spread in buildings, buses, houses etc, but I think the point is being outside in direct sun (ah giver of life!!) should by anybody's logic stop it spreading by a factor of 180 by my maths. (I believe the virus has an envelope of fat that once melted by UV or disinfectant, exposes/kills it outside the body.)

Eric Myles
240 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:37:06
Brian #230 & Chris #231, but to be certain they need a control group of non-lockdown communities to compare against.

Doing a pre- and post-assessment won't help when the asymptomatic people are released into the herd again and people start getting sick again. What then? Back to lockdown? Only complete testing / vaccination will prevent that.

And I'm not a fan of modelling, BiBo as the saying goes.

Chris Williams
241 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:41:20
Modelling has many drawbacks, but it is only one input into the decision making as I understand it. I certainly hope so. SAGE even has Dominic Cummings involved, so what could possibly go wrong there?

Maybe the data from non-lockdown, or lightly locked-down countries provides that data, Eric, but I don't know. All I do know is that the transmission rate in some countries is extremely high, as it also seems to be in Liverpool.

Eric Myles
242 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:43:02
Brian #237, that's one of the biggest problems, too many experts and they're all saying something different. So who to believe?
Brian Williams
243 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:44:32
Eric. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Some are saying the government were slow to react and initiate the lockdown, and some are saying they shouldn't have made panicked decisions too quickly. They got slated for not banning outdoor gatherings while others say outdoor is okay, it's indoors where all the damage is done.

For every argument, there's a counter-argument. My own take on it is that, the less people I come into close contact with, the less chance I have of contracting the disease. I think it's fair to say that that's a fact, is it not?

Tony Abrahams
244 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:46:26
I rarely watch the news, Dave (you won't have heard of WhatsApp – "What's that? exactly) but I was hoping Brian, was going to get a job behind the bar though, just in case!
Chris Williams
245 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:48:05
Hey, our Brian,

I agree with your final statement completely.

But the thought remains that Moise Kean could be right!

Dave Abrahams
246 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:52:21
Brian (238), well you've still got your sense of humour, so you'll get by down there. Even Lucifer likes a laugh, the bastard has been laughing at us for years, helping Liverpool.
Eric Myles
247 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:53:46
Brian & Chris, all I'm saying is they really don't know what they are doing or why, they are just guessing.

So don't take anything you read as being gospel.

Chris Williams
248 Posted 27/04/2020 at 16:58:53

I reckon we're all specimens in a giant Petrie dish. It feels that way anyway.

Brian Williams
249 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:01:20
Dave #246.

And I'll be havin' a word with him about that when I get there mate, asking when this pact of theirs comes to an end!!

Andrew Laird
250 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:03:15
Hey Jer, a virus in its lipid shell isn't a living organism and so doesn't survive nor can be killed. I will take my advice from a friend who did her post doctorate at Cambridge in Microbiology, who has been adamant since day one that social distancing was key to containing a viral outbreak.

Well researched by the way. ;)

Brian Williams
251 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:05:47
With regard to "them" guessing or not, it's down to "likelihood" "probability" things like that.

I'll give you an example. Before lockdown, I stopped to give a fella, who was hitchhiking, a lift. He got in and settled and then asked me why I wasn't worried about the fact that he could be a serial killer?

"What's the probability of there being two serial killers in one car" I said.

David Cash
252 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:12:01
Sam. I would be more than happy to concede that 14 is pretty much 50/50. If you are talking about 29 posts I would like to think you will concede that, with the retraction on this thread.

Less than half of the 14 comments which addressed the possibility of him coming, actually said they wanted him. I think that makes a "majority" of about 23%.

Jer Kiernan
253 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:12:30
You are engaging in semantics, my friend, UV rates will stop the Virus spreading. How you wish to say it is an irrelevance

Now will I send my friend who works for Vodaphone to go around and erect a 5G mast on top of your house? Yes or no?

See everyone "knows" it safe and thinks we should absolutely have it but just not on "their" houses /schools etc. Funny that, init.

Andrew Laird
254 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:18:08
It's not semantics, it's factual, it's why imbeciles have stockpiled antibacterial gel (which cancer patients receiving chemo need). It's a virus – not a bacteria – it's not a living organism.

Yes please, Jer, ask your “friend” to come and erect a mast outside my house. I'm sure that's how it works, no need for planning permissions or any other nonsense like that, just a tip of the cap from you and it's done.

What a wonderful world you live in.

Mike Gaynes
255 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:23:40
Anybody who doubts that Covid-19 can devastate young, healthy people should read this. It's written by a gifted reporter I know slightly on the New York Times. It brought me to tears, but then just about everything has over the past 24 hours:

32 Days on a Ventilator: One Covid Patient's Fight to Breathe Again

It's also for those who believe that loss of life is a worthwhile price to pay for reopening our economies. Every life is precious, and every one lost is devastating to their families and communities.

And it's a reminder that miracles do happen.

Peter Neilson
256 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:25:02
The 500k deaths modelled by Imperial College was based on taking no preventative measures. Thankfully, we're not in a position to know how accurate this was. The number was revised down to 20k with lockdown measures in place along with a prediction that the NHS would be able to cope.

In any case, modelling should only be one part of the analysis needed before making decisions. All models have limitations and it still needs decisions to be informed by expertise and sound judgement.

Naill Ferguson hasn't put the country in lockdown – it's just the simplistic narrative of parts of the UK media. Maybe he has a part to play but, as with say Schneiderlin and our performances, it's not all down to one man.

Peter Neilson
257 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:27:07
Sorry my mistake, Schneiderlin is to blame more than most.
Dave Abrahams
258 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:27:13
Brian (249), having a word with, having a bleedin' word...? I thought you was a man, just give him a kick in the balls. He can't do nothing else to you, you'll be stuck there and he might like your spirit. In fact kick him twice, once for Everton and once for Birkenhead.
Jer Kiernan
259 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:41:01
Andrew @254,

The point, of course, is hypothetical but shows you up to be both ill-informed and hypocritical on the subject as we both know you would kick up blue murder if somebody attempted to put a 5G mast up on your house.

Yet there is more than a bit of collective cognitive dissonance at play here that you were only to happy to engage in when you asked my opinion on the subject, An adult discussion on it would benefit all involved, I would say.

Mike @255

I don't have an account with NYT but am sure it is very harrowing experience and very rare for this disease but highlighed by NYT none the less. I am happy the patient recovered, I have never felt it a case of putting money or the economy over lives and myself value money little. But there is also people who will die and suffer because of this lockdown, make no mistake. Whether it be in the lack of health service being provided for other diseases or the longer-term economic fallouts, this doesn't fit the media narrative though, so is seldom if ever discussed.

Nobody wins in a situation like this, it is about proportion. I am finished discussing Covid-19, I am off out to get some sun.

Best wishes to all TWebbers and Thanks to the mods for putting up with it.

Mike Gaynes
260 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:43:21
Tony #236 - Stay off the Internet, my friend, and you'll worry less. Both of those stories are false.

The alleged text from the Japanese Nobel laureate, Prof. Tasuku Honjo, was a complete fabrication. He never said any of those things.

And there is no new coronavirus strain targeting kids. The rapidly increasing concern around children is that they may be missing out on immunizations for things like measles, diphtheria and polio because of the disruption caused by the virus. And here in the US there are lots of stupid parents not getting their kids immunized. The next major outbreak here could be measles.

Mike Gaynes
261 Posted 27/04/2020 at 17:50:54
Jer, it's not "very rare" at all. It's happening worldwide. That's why The Times reported the story.

This story doesn't have a paywell, and it's on your side of the pond: Coronavirus: Twin sisters Katy and Emma Davis die with Covid-19

Dr Li Wenliang, who first discovered the Wuhan outbreak and was told to shut up about it, was only 33 when he died of the virus. My sister-in-law's colleague, the hospital director in Wuhan, was 41 and ran a 10-km two weeks before he got Covid-19 and died.

This happens.

Paul Tran
262 Posted 27/04/2020 at 18:01:40
This thread is making me more convinced that the more people talk about the 'mainstream media', the less they actually look at it.
Tony Abrahams
263 Posted 27/04/2020 at 18:13:26
Thanks Mike, that's why I posted what I'd been sent via WhatsApp mate. I thought it was a bit late in the day for someone to be coming out with what the Japanese man supposedly said, and I was hoping that the other one was a bit of scaremongering, for people to maybe show a bit more sense because, whenever I go out in the car, or for a bit of exercise, it just doesn't feel like a proper lockdown imo.

ToffeeWeb, and music, then maybe a bit of telly later on, but not too much news on the internet. It was heartbreaking when I was hearing about deaths in Italy (still is, if I think about it) so it only gets worse when you hear that people you know are dying from this horrible bastard thing.

You beat the big one, Mike, you've stared death in the face, so to hear people say the experts have got it right or wrong or this or that makes no sense to me, because life is very precious and too many people all over the world are losing their bloody lives way too early. Some hospitals are overwhelmed, people suffering other life-threatening illnesses are also going to die because they are not going to receive valuable treatment in time, and that's even before we get onto the mental health side of things.

Life for too long has been about growth, whilst some very important things have been neglected. When it was in China (first reported by you on these pages), people never envisaged it getting here, and when it's gone, people will be delighted, but it's going to lead to starvation all over our planet, but this is another issue all together.

I was an inquisitive kid, I probably knew life was unfair when I was five (Dave wouldn't take me the match, and I was desperate!) but once this virus has gone, how long will it be before people get back to normal? Whilst kids will still be starving, and although we won't be oblivious, we might as well be for what we actually do.

Sorry for the rant, it's why I don't watch the news, but if we are only here on a message, then that message has got to be, can the human race start looking after each other please!

Andrew Laird
264 Posted 27/04/2020 at 18:24:54
Sam Hoare
265 Posted 27/04/2020 at 18:28:29
David @252; just when I think I'm out, you reel me back in! Ha. You're almost as stubborn as me. Come on then.

It seems we may be differing in how we interpret those posts. I see a little inconsistency in what you are saying. You imply in 221 that posts intimating that Grealish will go elsewhere don't count. Though in 192 you do count my post, even though it also states that he will go elsewhere.

When talking originally I was insinuating (perhaps unclearly) that over half of the relevant posts seem happy enough to have him at our club, even if the price tag made it unlikely.

For me those posts are numbers: 1,4, 5, 9,10, 13,14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 27.

I'm sure we can debate some of those if you wish. That makes 15 which is over 50%.

Who was the retraction by the way? I missed that.

Jamie Crowley
266 Posted 27/04/2020 at 18:40:48
Jesus what a thread.

I think many of Jer's points are valid and worthy of discussion.

Where I think Jer (if I may Jer) swerved off the rails was suggesting Moise Kean's actions were a "good for him" situation. I'd disagree. It was completely self-absorbed and irresponsible of Kean to throw this party, in my opinion, with little to no regard for others around him.

There seems to be a "splitting of hairs" with whom this virus affects, by the numbers and in the majority. I don't think anyone who says, "This virus affects the elderly, the obese, and those with pre-existing conditions" are insinuating that young people can't be infected, and more importantly aren't carriers. The health complications, in the main, are felt by the three groups listed above. That doesn't equate to saying "it doesn't affect the young".

As I mentioned to Mike on another thread, maybe we should say, "This virus adversely affects the elderly, the obese, and those with pre-existing conditions in the main." Then I get a bit impatient and angry, because the second I feel like I have to watch my words and put on my attorney hat, I become grumpy. That's entirely a "me" problem admittedly.

The Sweden situation is one that simply must be examined. Christine Foster, an incredibly measured and intelligent poster for years on TW, pointed to a Guardian article stating that the percentage of the affected per capita was very high in Sweden. I also read articles that say Sweden is the model to follow if / when we have wave two. This example of disparate opinions with one country doing it differently illustrates, and lends a lot of credence to, the "accuracy" of news reports. It's difficult.

Depending upon which side of the aisle you lean, you blame Trump (totally valid) or CNN for "witch-hunting" (in my opinion there's validity to that, too, in part). That last sentence is obviously from an American perspective. I'm sure your can substitute any number of media and world leader examples in whatever neck of the woods you're in.

Sweden, from what I've read, has a population of 10 million, and has experienced 2300 or so deaths. Take that for whatever it's worth, and draw your own conclusions.

It's all a big fucking mess.

There's three camps I think:

1. Shelter no matter what. In an honest moment, they're the good people. The ones who actually care about everyone surviving and will go to very long lengths to stop any spread and any death. Saints.

2. Shelter, but there may be places where we can get back to work / start to reintroduce normality. This is my camp. Say of me what you will. Check the other thread by Paul the Esk for all the arguments back and forth about this stance as I personally believe there's validity to the human health detrimental effect of the economy going south.

3. Protesting, fuck it, let's just go back to normal. I'd argue this isn't in keeping for caring about your neighbor. Your mileage may vary.

Wash your hands. Keep posting. It's all very interesting, the debate keeps my blood pumping, and Christ knows I have the sum of sweet fuck all to do presently, so it is a wonderful way to pass the time.

Paul Tran
267 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:00:12
The problem with all the raw data around people with the virus/deaths is that it doesn't take into account social norms in different societies – by that, I mean countries that are more tactile, more distant, more extrovert/introvert. The stats don't always take into account density of population. That means people are constantly comparing apples with pears.

Watch your hands, keep two metres apart. Then we can all peddle our own skewed, selective theories safely.

And if you're one of those libertarians who know better, fine. Just fucking stay away from me.

Jamie Crowley
268 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:02:53
Hahaha Paul.

That last line is hilarious and priceless.

Paul Tran
269 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:06:11
Thought you'd like that, Jamie. I meant it, mind.
Bobby Mallon
270 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:26:29
Just watched a report on F1 teams developing breathing aids, to try and keep people off ventilators. They've developed it, got it approved, and now switched to manufacturing.

All football has done is moan about the footballers' mental health, resist calls for a cut in pay and speculate when they can play again. Opened my eyes to footballers and the Premier League in general. Disgusting.

Dave Brierley
271 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:29:17
Jamie, I agree, it's a great thread.

Liked your analysis but I would say there's a 4th camp. The Grealish and Kean camp which says:

Fuck everyone. Let's have a party! better than ever!!

Dave Brierley
272 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:32:58
Hard to argue with that, Bobby.

In the main, the football industry has been in polite terms sadly lacking.

In your and my terms, fucking useless.

Jeff Spiers
273 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:50:43
Hello fellow Toffewebbers. I'm 67 years of age and been through enough trials and tribulations... butI'm no expert. I always try to trust my eyes and my own ears to what is around me. But I do fear for the future. Unfortunately, the facts at the moment are businesses closing, massive unemployment and homes being lost.

People dying needlessly. The biggest evil is not the virus but the enemy that can't be got at. The scum that profit from human misery. Whatever political leanings we have will not help.

Fearmonger, some will call me. That fear is growing daily. In all of us. Civil war when we reach boiling point? None of us know... Pray for the children.

Jer Kiernan
274 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:58:11
Jamie @266,

An excellent and measured post, You are right about the fact that what Moise Kean did was wrong so I retract, but it perturbed me that the BBC who been nothing short a fucking disgrace in this whole episode were so quick with their "what have got here eh?" attitude. They are a mouthpiece for the Government (despite being funded by the people), are peddlers in biased misinformation and fear, don't have a journalist worthy of the name and need dismantling.

The one point I would like to address on your post is surely after all this and all our mistakes and follies, incompetentcies which are many and part of what it is to be humans the inevitable blame games that will happen etc.

We can never overlook the role of the Chinese Communist Party in all of this, A bunch of genocidal thugs who enjoy all the spoils of the free market while oppressing and hammering their own people into the dirt into submission and repression. They lack the most basic of human decencies (ie, care and responsibility for the health of their own people let alone the globe). They are human scum, there is no other word to describe them, and we need as a collective to stop averting our gaze to their human and civil rights abuses (the worst in the world by far) which have in no small part led to this global catastrophe, just so we can have cheap Apple iPhones?

We as a first step need to put all our energies into getting back to some semblance of normal and, as best we can, have a safety net to care for the most vulnerable and worst affected by all of this but, once that is achieved and I very much hope it can be, it's time to take out the thrash!!

For them and those culpable in WHO, I would suggest Nuremberg style trials for crimes against humanity. Should they be found guilty (even in absentia) of what we all know they did then if possible long sentences at the end, if not worse,

Nobody has all the answers or the solutions and we all in our own ways have made mistakes in dealing with this but I will forgive incompetence any day of the week (Ferguson, Trump et al) but pure corruption, non-disclosure of a possible epidemic, and spite – absolutely no way. The people who could have stopped and "chose" not to need to be held accountable, they are rancid.

I am clocking off for the evening, enough Covid-19 for one day.

Paul @267
I cannot disagree with anything you have said.

Tony Abrahams
275 Posted 27/04/2020 at 19:58:59
Jamie @266, That's why I think everyone will be looking towards Sweden, because nobody wants to be locked down.

Paul T has just gave a very good example of what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander. For my own twopence worth, that's why it's imperative that every country starts testing, testing, testing, because, if some countries haven't built up enough immunity, then trying to go the Swedish way, if a second wave arrives, might possibly be the most dangerous thing they could do.

I personally think history usually repeats itself, so if a virus without a cure gathers strength during its mutation, then it's imperative to test, so we might have more of a clue if a second wave does arrive.

That's me for today, I'm going to watch the cleverest man I've ever seen on the telly making people offers they can't refuse!

Mike Gaynes
276 Posted 27/04/2020 at 20:08:40
Tony #263, that wasn't a rant, it was philosophy. I loved it.

Paul #267, that last line cracked me up too. First time I've laughed in a couple of days. Thanks.

Jamie #266, I don't think we're ever gonna know what the "correct" approach was, even in retrospect, because every nation's situation is/was different. For me, I look at what countries have done the best job of keeping their people alive, looking at this chart:

I compare the column labeled "deaths/1M pop", or how many people a country has lost per million of population, versus the total cases per million.

By that measure, Belgium, Spain, France, Italy and the UK have done a horrible job -- each has had more than 3 thousand cases per million and over 300 deaths per million. (The US is coming up fast on the outside and might pass 'em all before the course is run.) Places like South Korea, Japan and Australia have been brilliant by contrast, with only three or four deaths per million.

Re Sweden, it's interesting to compare them to Germany, which also took a more casual approach to preventing infections but focused on treatment. Both have seen almost 1900 virus cases per million population. But Sweden has had three times the death rate of Germany -- 225/million for Sweden, 72/million for Germany. (This is clear proof that blondes are more susceptible.)

I don't know the answer, and I don't think anybody does. At least no one who isn't a Stable Genius.

Conor McCourt
277 Posted 27/04/2020 at 20:14:51
Brian 220 – sorry, that first line came across as condescending but it wasn't meant that way. I was just trying to offer Jer support and there will be many who have looked at the same stuff as me and come to a different conclusion.

Chris 231 – so, according to Imperial College, 3.5 to 4 infected before the lockdown and now 0.8 after lockdown? Who would have believed it? The group that made the daft prediction, which the government based their decision to lockdown on, are telling us how successful it's been. Wow, their original decision wasn't that wacko after all, then. Funny that.

Can I ask a question:
If I said Per Krøldrup was the next Radcliffe (swine flu), Tom Cleverly was the next Ball (foot and mouth), Oumar Niasse was the next Lineker (Covid-19)... Would you be using my plans on who we should sign this summer to give to Marcel?

Paul 267 – On your request for Libertarians: "Just fucking stay away from me". In all fairness, Paul, I think they would be more worried about hanging round with you just in case you give them tips like Defi de Seuil to win the Champion Chase. Indeed I've been worried for the horse during lockdown as I believe he's still running in that race, he was so far behind and thought that the police would have detained him by now!!

Dave Abrahams
278 Posted 27/04/2020 at 20:41:43
Tony (263), good post, except the part you said I wouldn't take you to the match when you were 5. I took you when you were 5 years and 1 month. You were lucky I ever took you anywhere, you would talk to anyone about anything, more so if it was about football.

The time I took you to Wembley for the Aston Villa League Cup Final, we were in a compartment with five other people. You never fuckin' shut up all the way down. Me and Michael (my other son, the good son) in the end pretended to be asleep and that we didn't know who the fuck you were. You haven't changed – over 40 years later.

Michael Lynch
279 Posted 27/04/2020 at 20:52:58
Mike @276, Like you, I'm an avid fan of the Worldometers website. But the stats throw up far more questions than answers.

As you say, Japan at 3 deaths per million population is probably the model to follow. Except that their lockdown has basically consisted of telling people not to go to Karaoke bars too often, and they have an incredibly low level of testing. Yet, somehow they have half the death rate of their neighbours South Korea, who have been held up as a beacon of high testing and targetted quarantine.

Then we have the UK, with high death rates right up there with France, Italy and Spain among the major Western European economies, seemingly being shown up by our close neighbours Ireland. Except that when you break down the figures, Northern Ireland – following the UK approach – has a lower death rate per million then the Republic of Ireland.

And then Belgium has the highest deaths per million in Europe, but it seems that might be because they're over-attributing deaths to Covid-19 compared to everyone else.

And the USA – they currently fall below Sweden, below Ireland, below the UK and in fact below every major European nation except Germany in terms of deaths per million, so it seems they're actually doing pretty well.

As for Germany, for some reason their average age of someone getting Covid-19 is in the mid-40s, compared to the late 60s in Italy. Why is that?

So, as I say, I'm with you – the stats are incredibly interesting, but it's almost impossible to draw any hard evidence from them about whether or not any country is "doing a horrible job". There are so many factors that might need to be taken into consideration – not least the gap between northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere, and between very densely populated countries like England, and sparsely populated ones like New Zealand.

I'm with the scientists and health experts on this one – we're only going to be able to take a view on this whole epidemic in a year or two's time. It's early days and, while everyone is entitled to their opinion, the only thing that's certain is that we know next to nothing yet.

Mike Gaynes
280 Posted 27/04/2020 at 21:11:19
Michael #279, I'd say that the numbers show both South Korea and Japan in a good light -- 5 and 3 per million respectively is pretty classy when the world average is 27 deaths per million. But we may be jumping the gun on Japan a little... they're having an intense new outbreak this month.

With regards to the US, I guarantee those numbers are gonna turn more. Some states are opening up restaurants even though their infection rates are still rising. We are still tripping over the ball on this thing.

But overall, you're right... hard evidence of what works best is impossible to discern right now, and may be extremely difficult even in retrospect. Early days is right!

Paul Tran
281 Posted 27/04/2020 at 21:28:27
Cheers Conor #277. Defi summed up my Cheltenham. Good ante post price, all the other top horses pulled out and he ran like a doped snail!!

He was the ultimate social distancer.

Thanks for the reminder!

Jamie Crowley
282 Posted 27/04/2020 at 21:50:00
Lots to say but priorities and whatnot:

Sirius XM here in ‘Merica just had a superb interview with Jonjoe Kenny. The kid is just wonderful. I really hope we recall him whenever next season starts. Great kid, totally down to earth.

John Keating
283 Posted 27/04/2020 at 23:48:12

He should be back on merit in my opinion. Also, he would save us a fortune on an unknown.

We all know it's a team game and, though not the greatest in the world, he is a team player.

Paul Jones
284 Posted 27/04/2020 at 00:18:55
If Mary @194 is correct, it is a great concern that Moise Kean and Brands have the same agent. I remember the expensive shit we bought when David Moyes's brother was our preferred agent.
Eric Myles
285 Posted 28/04/2020 at 00:25:24
Bobby & Dave,

F1 has some of the finest engineering brains working on design and construction of complex machinery, so making things is probably very easy for them to do.

Footballers though hardly manage to have a GCSE between a whole squad so we can't really blame them for not coming up with life-saving solutions.

Jamie Crowley
286 Posted 28/04/2020 at 00:27:21
Mike -

With regards to the US, I guarantee those numbers are gonna turn more. Some states are opening up restaurants even though their infection rates are still rising. We are still tripping over the ball on this thing.

Let's hold judgment on that for a few weeks or so. 😉

John Keating -

I agree with you 100%. Jonjoe Kenny needs to be recalled. He's a damn good footballer, he's doing really well in Germany, and listening to the kid I'm so impressed with his attitude. I believe he captained that Unsy team with Davies?? There's a reason why. I'd really, really like to see him back whenever next season starts.

Probably August 2023 at this rate. 😂

Eric Myles
287 Posted 28/04/2020 at 00:34:22
Mike # 279, what you're saying can be summed up in the well known phrase about 'lies, damn lies, and statistics'.
Mike Gaynes
288 Posted 28/04/2020 at 03:56:53
Jamie #286...

Two weeks ago, the US was at 67 deaths per million population. A week later that had jumped to 123/million. One more week and it's now 172/million.

In a "few weeks"?... I don't even want to think about it.

Alan J Thompson
289 Posted 28/04/2020 at 04:20:39
Similar to Bobby (#270), since this pandemic started, I've lost a lot of respect for people at all levels of football and, for me, they are just coming over as selfish money-grubbers with little concern for much else.

Oh, and why would Mr Brands, our Director of Football (Business), need an agent? Or does he think it is the best (established and accepted) way to communicate with the Chairman?

Robert Tressell
290 Posted 28/04/2020 at 07:34:24
Jonjoe Kenny could be our next Phil Neville. In a good way.

I'm hopefull he'll be playing for us next season as we need that sort of personality on the pitch. We're far too nice and accepting.

Eric Myles
291 Posted 28/04/2020 at 07:49:26
Alan J #289,

Mr Brands, and others like him, need an agent to deal with all the inquiries as to whether he will open a new Aldi, or attend a charity function, or be a keynote speaker to a group of businessmen. All things that he will be too busy to delve into the minutiae of while he has a full-time job.

David Cash
292 Posted 28/04/2020 at 09:18:08
Ok Sam.

I will not post on this matter again. Not because I think you have a strong argument. But because it is becoming increasingly clear you are totally determined to go on presenting a weak one.

You cried double standards claiming many people wanted to sign Grealish despite his transgression and wanted Kean gone because of his. You claimed half the people on a thread said they wanted to sign Grealish. Your claims are demonstrably false.

This is not about what you think people mean; it is about what they say. You seem to think anybody who didn't dismiss the prospect of signing Grealish was automatically in favour of it. Not so. Some may have acknowledged that he is a decent player, who is better than what we have. But only six say they wanted to sign him. That's a staggeringly low number considering the thread is about him.

This discussion is about double standards, not differing opinions, and despite 5-6 attempts, you have provided zero evidence to support your claim that double standards have been applied.

I've exhausted this, Sam. I've read just about every opinion out there and don't see any evidence of anyone calling for Kean and Grealish to be treated differently.

Tony Everan
293 Posted 28/04/2020 at 10:16:21
Latest rumour is we are talking to Napoli about Moise going there.

Maybe as part of a deal for Allan and or Lozano? Could be some truth in it.

Martin Nicholls
294 Posted 28/04/2020 at 10:48:26
Serious question here: Has anyone actually seen a statement from the Club or are we restricted to "extracts" from the alleged statement as published all over the media?

Can anyone recall whether a statement appeared on the Club website about the Niasse breach of lockdown?

Sam Hoare
295 Posted 28/04/2020 at 13:41:36
David, I have clearly provided evidence. In the last posting I went so far as to outline every post that I believed supported the signing of Grealish. Demonstrably you included me as one such poster in 192. You seem to suggest that someone has to actually type the words "we should sign Gealish" in order to show they are keen on signing him. That seems pretty reductive to me. Take the following:

"The talent is there for all to see and he is a player people will pay to watch. Also he is young and has his best years ahead of him. He will want to move to one of the Sky 6 though and champions League football. Mentioning our name insinuates more demand, his agents will be using this type of publicity trying to get subtle offers in for him so he can choose his destination. "

Seems clear as daylight to me that this poster would like to sign Jack Grealish even if they think it is unlikely. It seems we differ in interpreting these posts and that's fine but to say I have a weak argument and have provided no evidence is not necessary and not true.

Also I said players should be held to the same standards. I never introduced the provocative phrase "double standards". That was you.

Go well.

Peter Gorman
296 Posted 28/04/2020 at 13:47:35
How's it going, Jamie? Do you have any link for that Jonjoe Kenny interview on Sirius XM?

So far, the only joy I have had is finding the 'Kenny Chesney Chillaxification', which I will be sure to listen to afterwards.

Alan J Thompson
297 Posted 28/04/2020 at 17:01:48
Eric (#291); Not sure if you are answering my 2nd paragraph or agreeing with my 1st but if he hasn't got time for the minutiae then where will he find time to give a speech to shoppers waiting to get at the bread and milk as he opens another(?) Aldi before heading off to his gala dinner.
Allan Board
298 Posted 28/04/2020 at 17:55:31
Most 20-year-old blokes are knobs when it comes to drink, birds and parties. Most also think they are invincible, I know I thought I was! This nugget just happens to play footy in an era of media obsession. You can't shit without them finding out! And he 'plays' for us.

Stupid thing to do, couldn't be more disrespectful to the NHS too. If it was you or I, it wouldn't even get mentioned though. Fine him, put him down for a few hospital or charity visits and get him on a diet!

And my take on Grealish, muppet maybe, but what a player. Don't forget, he was assaulted by a fan on the pitch only a couple of year's back, and still carried on and won Villa the game. Made of tough stuff mentally as well as physically, gets kicked constantly in games with little protection, but just gets back on the ball and goes again.

Everton would suit him well, a little under the radar still until Ancelloti sorts it; Spurs or Man Utd would ruin him. I've not seen anyone as close to a fit Gascoigne as this kid, and he is still only what, 21? Mr Kean pales into insignificance in comparison frankly. My nephew is a mad Villa fan and goes to games, has said he is on a different level and would be perfect at Goodison.

My gut says he will end up at Man Utd though, pull your finger out, Brand's!

Dave Abrahams
299 Posted 28/04/2020 at 18:04:54
Allan (298), yes, Jack could be a very good player but is more than likely, as you say, to go to a bigger club. By the way, he is 24 going on 25.
Jimmy Hogan
300 Posted 28/04/2020 at 18:42:46
His big mistake was inviting Drenthe and Shandy.
Jamie Crowley
301 Posted 28/04/2020 at 21:09:24
Pete Gorman hello!

Regarding the Jonjoe Kenny interview, I'm really not sure where you could find it outside of America.

You'd need to, and this is the only way I know, download the Sirius XM app. The go to channel 157 (Sirius FC) and look up the show “Counter Attack”. You can find it on their On Demand Counter Attack show – yesterday's 4:00 pm show EST. The interview was about 30 minutes into the show.

Tom Bowers
302 Posted 28/04/2020 at 21:25:45
The lad, like many at his age, has talent... but do Everton need all the hassle that comes with a player like this? We have had our share of misfits and in our quest to become a viable competitor with the top four (or even six); he should perhaps be moved on.

According to reports, he's been earning 㿞 grand a week and so far hasn't shown much to deserve it. Ancelotti will be getting asked the questions about this player and one hopes the right decision will be made before next season.

Grealish is a class act on the field but his price tag may be way too high for Everton's liking.

David Cash
303 Posted 29/04/2020 at 14:58:17
Sam @295,

I knew you were determined to have the last word, but I'd had my say and was more than happy to let you have it. But not so you could make a false allegation; I can't let that go.

I did not, as you claim, introduce the phrase "Double Standard" to this thread. It had been used several times before I even posted. I actually only posted to refute those claims. I don't normally bother.

You don't just come across as stubborn, Sam, you seem so desperate to win an argument you have forgotten what side of it you belong to. You responded to my post by telling us that "people's judgement of a player's footballing ability has some effect on their judgement of what degree of idiocy they are prepared to tolerate". You offer a handful of posts up from people saying they would be happy to sign Grealish, as some sort of proof. You could not be more wrong.

Both of these players' performances and respective abilities will be critiqued solely by football fans. Their transgressions will be criticised or forgiven by society as a whole. These are two different things, Sam.

The relatively few numbers who said they would be happy for Grealish to sign, would multiply in if it became a real possibility. Anyone wanting him to sign for Everton would be basing their opinion purely on footballing ability. Nothing else.

Those who said the club shouldn't sign him because they think he is a selfish little prick, will still believe the club shouldn't sign him because he is a selfish little prick. His ability will not sway them.

Eric Myles
305 Posted 29/04/2020 at 15:16:50
Alan J #297, neither.
Sam Hoare
306 Posted 30/04/2020 at 07:13:31
David @303, I've admitted that I'm stubborn! I notice you are yet to do so.

I did not claim that you introduced “double standards” into this thread. I never used the word 'thread'. I meant into our conversation. Which is true. You accused me of crying “double standards”. Which is not true.

Obviously those keen on signing Grealish would do so for his football ability. That's exactly my point. That if a player's ability is sufficiently attractive, his character (or lack of) is more easily forgiven or overlooked by some people (including myself, potentially). I'm amazed you find this to be so contentious. You strike me as a man who knows what cognitive dissonance is.

Do you think, if Richarlison were caught partying with some models tomorrow, there would be as many calls to get rid?

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