Realisation growing that season can only finish behind closed doors

Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 301comments  |  Jump to last

There is a mounting acceptance among Premier League players that they will have to play to empty stadiums if any attempt to conclude the 2019-20 season by June 30th is to be successful.

That's the date by which Uefa have said that Europe's domestic leagues need to have played their remaining fixtures but, with the Covid-19 crisis still unfolding, there are fears that the new April 30th timeline set by the Football Association for the resumption of matches may come too soon.

Certainly, with Prime Minister Boris Johnson having only just moved the country into a “suppression” phase of the virus contagion by mandating that citizens stay home except to conduct essential errands and business, and experts predicting that the UK could be as hard hit by the coronavirus as Italy and Spain, there appears to be little chance that fans will be able to assemble under one roof again in just five weeks' time.

With the players having been isolated now for the past 11 days, there is a chance that they will be able to reconvene at their respective training complexes by the middle of next month in order to prepare for a return to action but that, too, seems somewhat unrealistic.

While The Mirror's back page screams, “No Fans, No Way!” today and claims that the players will revolt if asked to play behind closed doors, a report by David Ornstein for The Athletic following conversations with PFA deputy chief executive, Bobby Barnes, suggests that the players are taking a realistic view towards the need to finish the current season and they are increasingly aware that they won't be playing in front of people.

Barnes admitted that, at the outset, there was significant opposition to the idea of empty stadiums but the financial realities of the situation will ultimately hold sway.

“I've been speaking to players — including two or three very high-profile Premier League players more or less on a daily basis — and the conversations I had with them at the outset were based around not wanting to play behind closed doors if at all possible,” Barnes explained.

“I said to them, ‘Look, none of us, in an ideal world, want to play in front of empty stadiums. Football is about fans. But the reality is that, for the vast majority of the players, particularly at the highest level, their income is funded by television money and there are contracts that have to be adhered to. In order for us (the PFA) to be able to protect those players in terms of securing their salaries… if that's the only offer we have on the table to complete the season, then that is what it will be'.

“The players get it. They understand the alternative. Quite frankly, if we're going to get the season finished in a timely fashion so that we can even consider starting next season, we've got to be open to all options.

“If it means playing behind closed doors has to happen in order that contracts are protected, fixtures fulfilled and commercial deals honoured, then I think we've all got to come together and accept we've all got to make sacrifices to try and find a solution for the industry as a whole.”


Reader Comments (301)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

Ajay Gopal
1 Posted 24/03/2020 at 06:43:21
Just like to repeat what Ancellotti said about 10 days ago, which is even more true today: "Football counts for zero right now and it almost irritates me to be talking about it, faced with the tragedy that is unfolding in front of our eyes.”
Dick Fearon
2 Posted 24/03/2020 at 06:55:51
If playing in empty stadiums does not please the players, perhaps a universal reduction of say 50% in their wages would help change their minds?

If this damn virus continues into next year and clubs start folding, there would be so many players looking for work and that scenario could be forced upon them.

Brent Stephens
3 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:02:07
I can't see how playing behind closed doors could be allowed under the current suppression approach to dealing with this virus.

The recent Ferguson / Imperial College research says that there might be alternating periods of suppression and mitigation, with the latter being something of a temporary relaxation of the suppression phase.

On the face of it games could be played during mitigation phases. However the Imperial College report says that the timing of mitigation might have to vary across localities, as the virus peaks differently across localities. In that scenario the NW of England might be under mitigation while the SE is under suppression (or even more local variations). The logistics of completing the season would then be a real challenge.

John Keating
4 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:13:12
If they're made to play behind closed doors, they should just kick off and pass to each other for 90 minutes, keeping a safe distance from each other. Play the game to a nil-nil result.

Absolute nonsense to play a game of football behind closed doors. Still, if it boils down to money, then the players should turn up, turn out and go through the piss-take motions.

Alan J Thompson
5 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:19:13
How can Uefa possibly issue an edict that all countries have to finish their domestic competitions by a set date? Surely it must depend on how each country is affected by and deals with this virus.

And what would the penalty be, a monetary penalty or just not allowed to nominate clubs for inter-country club competitions?

And we think that the only idiots are those stockpiling toilet rolls!

Eugene Ruane
6 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:22:48
Seems to be a lot of wishful thinking going on re football.

Understandable of course and probably just as valid to be optimistic as pessimistic.

(if it wasn't for the wishful thinking element, most of us probably wouldn't bother with football).

But re the virus, if you look at the timings that we (ie: the public) have been given re self isolating, it seems impossible (bar a massive weather change) that anyone will be doing anything 'normal' before mid June.

Timings I've seen in the last week (re isolating) appear to range from 3 wks to 3 mnths but with the longer period seeming more realistic.

And so this playing 'behind closed doors' idea doesn't I believe really stand up to close scrutiny.

There's a suggestion with 'just play games behind closed doors' that this is somehow risk-free and a way around things but the reality is we're talking two dressing rooms full of players, load of subs and a load of support staff (mangers coaches etc).

How would this actually work?

How would the away side travel?

And in these games, will centre halves be standing 5 yards away centre forwards? (no Keane gags please!).

Playing behind closed doors (kind of) works to punish naughty supporters, but I'm not sure that during a pandemic it can be applied.

Simply put, if/when it's possible for supporters to get the virus, it's (surely!) possible for players to get it.

Or to put it another way, If we can spread it, they can spread it.

Just a thought.

Patrick McFarlane
7 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:32:27
If Football, like Sports Direct, believes it is an essential business, then technically I suppose it could go ahead. Which player out of the many millionaire players would want to possibly put their family at risk, by sharing a dressing room etc? Pure madness at this point in time.
John Keating
8 Posted 24/03/2020 at 07:57:58
Regardless of your political affiliations or whether you agree with what the government is or is not doing, the fact is they are supposed to make decisions, right or wrong.

What we have at present in football at the highest level is a bunch solely interested in themselves and money.

These are unprecedented times and decisions should be taken out of the hands of the football authorities.

Either we all carry out what the government imposes on us health-wise or we all ignore it. Football should be no different and given exemptions to suit a few at the top.

Ray Roche
9 Posted 24/03/2020 at 08:28:00
I said on a thread a couple of weeks ago that, whatever “solution” is dreamed up by the footballing hierarchy, it will have money as it's sole motivator. The passengers sat in the First Class seats on football's gravy train can think of nothing else.
Dick Fearon
10 Posted 24/03/2020 at 08:31:24
Essential workers as per power station controllers have strict parameters about anything that might put their job at risk.

Footballers by no stretch of the imagination could be classed as essential.

Billy Roberts
11 Posted 24/03/2020 at 08:44:17
Isn't it strange that we are all quite rightly making sacrifices yet the organisations of Sky, BT and the BBC don't? Why can't they take a hit for the common goal?

This Bobby Barnes PFA rep finally makes a statement, this tone of "We have to honour contracts" is just not rooted in the reality of the situation.

I have said similar in previous posts to what Eugene is saying, what do the players think?

I've said it before, the more severe this crisis becomes, the desire to complete 8 matches will dissolve. not only are the players involved what about the referees and linesman, the journalists, the camera crews, the people who work behind the scenes, floodlights etc, the ambulance crew that would have to be on standby in case of on-field cardiac arrest for instance?

The talk of losses in revenue for these giant companies never seems to turn to them accepting a hit, but how the whole of the UK and Europe can accommodate them. If the players have to forego some of their salary to negate some of their losses, so be it.

Brian Williams
12 Posted 24/03/2020 at 08:46:20
If it means playing behind closed doors has to happen in order that contracts are protected, fixtures fulfilled and commercial deals honoured, then I think we've all got to come together and accept we've all got to make sacrifices to try and find a solution for the industry as a whole.”

Some people just don't seem to get it ffs. Contracts protected while "normal" people are losing their livelihoods left, right, and centre. We've said in the past that footballers live in a bubble. It appears that most connected with the game live in them too.

Fucking disgrace that they even mention money and deals.

A statement should be made simply saying that football will recommence when restrictions are lifted and it is safe for everyone concerned.

Chris Williams
13 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:04:30
It shouldn't surprise anybody, that the Premier League should respond like this.

The PL is the very microcosm of neoliberalism, created and structured to protect and enrich the well off to the detriment of everyone else.

Since it's inception these ‘values' have become even more extreme, with the wealthiest of the wealthy pushing for, and getting a bigger slice of a bigger cake. Wealthy owners seeing opportunities for more weath, influence and God knows what else. Agents like Raiola getting £30M payouts!

And smaller clubs, and the grass roots withering away

Fans are also rans in this, with high ticket prices, stupid kick off times, ‘to satisfy the contracts' with Sky, BT, and increasingly bigger players like Amazon.

There was a debate on Sunday Supplement last weekend talking about this being an opportunity for Premier League football to ‘reset'.

In your dreams!

Tony Abrahams
14 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:34:40
“And smaller clubs, and the grass roots withering away”

Great sentence Chris, so true, very sad, time gives us..well time to reflect, and I've always had an argument or theory, that if you did a social study, then you would be able to tell what life was like in any era, by just taking a look at what professional football was like around any given time? (If that makes sense).

I think this might happen, unless there is a massive back-lash, in a similar way that everyday life would still be normal, (staying open and no social distancing) if it had just been up to Boris Johnson and his aides.

They might say it's good for us, helping to give us some normality in these long and boring days, and every player will be getting tested daily, to evaluate the risk of this virus, but first we are in for a very bad few weeks, and after this happens, I'm not sure people will even be interested in football for a while..Who really knows?

Stan Schofield
15 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:34:59
In reality, it looks inevitable that this season will simply be voided. The obvious priority is safety, and quite frankly even considering finishing the season looks ridiculous.

Some interesting points made on this thread, but in the end it's all detail which should be made irrelevant by the government properly taking a precautionary approach consistent with voiding the season.

Ray Robinson
16 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:36:51
Totally agree with Eugene #6. If the season recommences and just ONE player from any team is found to have the virus, then, with teams playing each other within a matter of days in order to complete the season, all teams would have to go immediately into self-isolation.
Brent Stephens
17 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:44:29
Do you think they might just be looking to comply with their contracts with Sky / BT so that they can donate the TV revenues from these games to the lower leagues?

Come on, stop being cynical!

Chris Williams
18 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:46:29
Cynical moi?
James Hughes
19 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:47:31
Talking about this being an opportunity for Premier League football to ‘reset'.

If they grasp the opportunity, then they should get the agents in line and use the American model, where players – not clubs – pay the agents. I think 㿊m payments would disappear fast.

As it stands, when the vaccine is approved, I wouldn't bet against Uefa demanding all players go to the front of the line.

Colin Glassar
20 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:49:46
Just write the sodding season off. I mean, most of us are stuck at home thinking about how to survive this virus. I don't know if it's as bad as the media/scientists are making out but I'm not taking any chances.

I'm staying home watching telly, reading and catching up with family members who I haven't spoken to for years. I'll be painting the living room soon and I will be cooking (new recipes) while listening to music and podcasts etc.

There's loads of things to do. Consider this the off-season and start looking forward to August. I love football more than most but I need to be alive to enjoy it.

Keep calm and get on with it.

John Raftery
21 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:51:33
From what I have read, Uefa has already accepted domestic seasons will finish sometime after the 30th June. Also, next season's Champions League may start before the domestic seasons are completed.

This assumes there is a ‘next' season.

Michael Lynch
22 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:52:28
The Premier League should self isolate their mouths - it's not up to them, it's up to the government to decide when football can return, advised by the health experts. As others have said, it's not just a matter of 22 players turning up, even if you do play behind closed doors.

Forget the fans, it takes a massive number of people to open a stadium and get a game played. And the games will be a nonsense – limited contact, no atmosphere, total waste of time. Might as well play the season out on an Xbox.

Steve Brown
23 Posted 24/03/2020 at 09:59:24
Under the lockdown restrictions announced yesterday, games played behind closed doors will be two a side.

When are the Premier League and FA going to see things as they really are? They are almost as deluded as the IOC.

Tony Abrahams
24 Posted 24/03/2020 at 10:09:53
To be fair to the Premier League, they pulled the plug on football at a time when this Government was saying that large crowds are not a problem — two days after how many thousand Madrid fans had travelled from a Coronavirus hotspot to come and watch a game of football in our city. Honest!
Chris Williams
25 Posted 24/03/2020 at 10:15:51
Fair comment, Tony.
John Raftery
26 Posted 24/03/2020 at 10:25:25
It seems to me far from certain that a new season will commence in August or that if it did, it could proceed without the interruption of a second peak in Covid-19 cases.
Brian Williams
27 Posted 24/03/2020 at 10:31:11
Weird this morning just walking to the local shop (for essential supplies) and seeing people coming from the opposite direction very quickly moving away from me.

I'm used to having that effect on women only!

Stan Schofield
28 Posted 24/03/2020 at 10:33:09
Brian, brilliant!
Kevin Latham
29 Posted 24/03/2020 at 11:03:40
You'd think, wouldn't you, that with such loss of life and the biggest pandemic in 100 years, with so many countries effectively locking their citizens down and with no sign of any imminent vaccine or exit strategy, with scientists up against something they can't predict, with our NHS soon to be on the brink and with no real end in sight, with being in totally uncharted waters, that Sky and the football authorities would take all of that into consideration rather than put ‘contracts' and financial considerations before everything.

They seem to have no regard for the humanity of the situation, money rules everything. Here's a thought – just end the season now, and if the money people try litigation then let's see how far they get.

There is no precedent for this in peacetime and surely public opinion and the wholly exceptional circumstances would be of some persuasion. Many employers will break contracts over the coming months as they just won't be able to sustain them and people's livelihoods will be at risk; couple this with the tragic loss of life and for me, and others judging from the mood on this and other threads, the contract/financial issues pale into insignificance.

Mike Hughes
30 Posted 24/03/2020 at 11:04:39
Health and safety is the priority here. Football just a passing thought if that at present.

The RS want the title awarded to them at the very least. Either way, the season is tainted.

I'd suspend the season now and award the title to Man City as reigning champions due to the failure of any other team to get over the line.

That would give the RS something to whine about (snigger) and bring a smile to large parts of a traumatised world (the exception being Norway).

Dave Abrahams
31 Posted 24/03/2020 at 11:55:25
Loads more sense spoke on this thread than anything I've heard or read from anyone in football authority the last few weeks, they have had little time for fans in the past and are very self-centred even now with this virus threatening all of us. Their attitude to us fans seems to be “Let them eat cake”.
Tony Abrahams
32 Posted 24/03/2020 at 12:02:11
Just read an article by Prentice in the Echo, and I think the best thing they could do is shut that newspaper down for a bit as well.
Martin Nicholls
33 Posted 24/03/2020 at 12:19:28
I suspect I'm one of a significant majority who are having their previously blinkered eyes opened to the reality of what our game has been turned into.

I've always believed that the next best thing to playing the game is attending one. My jibe to many LFC "fans" is "Don't let your children grow up thinking that football is a game you watch on TV" – and that's referring to televised games when spectators ARE present.

I have little interest in televised football (don't have Sky Sports, BT etc and don't even sit through MotD) and in the present climate would not turn on the TV even to watch Everton playing in the farce of a "behind closed doors" game. That for me would not be a game of professional football.

Jay Wood

34 Posted 24/03/2020 at 12:25:29
This article quotes the PFA's Deputy Chief Executive representing the voice of his members, the players.

As such, he doesn't speak for the FA, the PL, the EFL, the clubs, invested 3rd parties (such as Sky) and certainly not for the fans.

I know it's popular to have a dig at the ruling authorities, but it is worth remembering that on the very same day Boris Johnson first fronted up to the nation on the crisis - appropriately, Friday the 13th - pretty much saying carry on as normal so the nation could build a 'herd immunity' to Covid-19, the PL and EPL pre-empted him by initially suspending all football until April 3. That has since been extended to April 30.

The fact that just 3 days later the Government completely backtracked from their initial policy and imposed stricter restrictions suggests the football authorities were more responsible and ahead of the game than BJ.

These are extraordinary times. We are confronting so many unknowns. Asking whole nations to adapt to another lifestyle overnight is a tough sell. It's only natural people are resistant to change and wish to carry on as before.

BIG numbers are at stake financially, especially for sport broadcasters and sponsors. But I have to presume, given the eye-watering numbers involved - and I include the elite players and their contracts and salaries in that - that such contracts ending in many zeros have 'force majeure' clauses to protect all parties in the event of unexpected circumstances causing some breach in the contract.

Covid-19 certainly qualifies for that.

Given all that I understand the sentiment of wishing to see a return of sport to the calendar, but it remains a suspension of reality and lack of comprehension to believe that is possible now or in the coming weeks, or even months.

Even the proposal by Baines in the opening post - to play behind closed doors - is fraught with challenges. It's not just 22 blokes turning up for a kick-about in a local park.

Both sets of players and auxiliary staff have to gather and travel to the game from different geo-locations, be housed, fed and served at local hotels, travel to the stadium, play out a game at close quarters.

There is no Star Trek 'Beam me up Scotty' transporter to facilitate that.

Whilst the fans may be locked out of the stadium, again, the game will not be played in a vacuum. 100s will be in attendance, including stadium staff and - if it is to be believed - broadcasting staff to beam live footy to the self-isolating public.

In such an environment it will be impossible to maintain the 'safe social distancing' the Government is insisting on.

It just takes ONE person - be it player or other - to be infected with Covid-19 to make the house of cards of this proposal come crashing down.

Sport, its officials, its players, we the fans, have got to accept that it is both irresponsible and impractical at this time to see a resumption of professional or even grass roots sport any time soon, under any conditions.

Patrick McFarlane
35 Posted 24/03/2020 at 12:52:26
Jay #34 The only reason that the football authorities made their decision to postpone the fixtures was because Arteta and then other staff at other clubs were infected or potentially infected with the virus – if they hadn't have been, then the fixtures would have gone ahead.

I'm afraid the various governing bodies of football are only interested in their personal perks and bank balances, they care not for the game, the fans or even the players. They might find that ordinary people will begin to distance themselves from the game when this crisis is over.

Geoff Williams
36 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:10:11
Being as objective as I can, my view is that the season should be written off and preparation made for the start of season 20-21 sometime around September or October. I know this will create a great deal of hardship for some clubs and a number will simply fold.

Premier League clubs will lose tens of millions as the tv companies will want to take back a large chunk of their money as well as the loss of all the income from matchdays. Redundancies for footballers is inevitable but this will only put them in the same position as the rest of society.

Martin Nicholls
37 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:12:44
Patrick #34 – your final paragraph echoes what was trying to say in my opening paragraph @32.

I also echo what you say about the reasons for action taken by football authorities on 13th March - those same authorities who were happy to allow the Liverpool - Atletico game go ahead on 11th despite the risks inherent in 5,000 people flying into the City from Madrid. I'm afraid I give those authorities very little credit for the actions taken as their motives are questionable, to say the least.

Brian Williams
38 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:20:58
Geoff. "Surprisingly" John Aldridge disagrees with you and says that this season should be completed no matter what, even if it means next season being written off completely.

I wonder why he's looking at it from that particular angle?

Jamie Crowley
39 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:22:53
I'll bet money they are up and playing games by May 15th, and they condense the schedule to get it done by the 30th of June.

Any takers?

To what Eugene said earlier, the wife and I have been saying all along. You don't just play behind closed doors. It is shocking to the eye, but there's still a ton of people there, many in close proximity. It's a bit folly to think even playing behind closed doors will stop the spread. Sure, it will obviously limit it, but certainly not prevent spread.

Case spread will be on the wane come May, and the EPL will race to start, fit their season in, and meet their contractual obligations to protect their most precious prize: money.

Chris Hockenhull
40 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:31:02
Ah, Aldridge... our Minister of Health. It was always known he gave up a career in the NHS to become full-time knobhead. He's been at it for weeks. The good old Red Echo gives him space each time he wants to inflict his shite upon the public.
Brent Stephens
41 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:35:30
Jamie #39 "I'll bet money they are up and playing games by May 15th, and they condense the schedule to get it done by the 30th of June.
Any takers?"

I'll take you up on that, Jamie. I just can't see that happening. Unless that's 2021.

Jay Wood

42 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:38:22
Sorry Patrick @ 35, but the bulk of your post reads like you are trotting out a lazy blanket stereotyping of the game and all associated with it.

The implications in your post about the money awash in the game and snouts in the trough is a different debate altogether, IMO.

Putting that aside, even if your opening presumption is true - and I'm not sure that it was the only determining factor in the PL and EPL's decision to suspend league football, justifiable as it was - then surely it was still more commendable than the Government's response that day.

Boris Johnson's explicit position about live sport on March 13 was this:

“We are considering the question of banning major public events such as sporting fixtures. The scientific advice is that this will have little effect on the spread but there's also the issue of the burden such events can place on public services."

BJ and his wise counsellors clearly held the belief that the gathering together of tens of thousands of people from diverse geo-locations, at close quarters, in a confined space, then allowing them to disperse - many by public transport - back to their communities, would have 'little effect on the spread'.

I recall around that time with so much prevaricating going on that I pleaded on these pages for someone - anyone! - to take the lead on this.

The PL and EPL did so. The Government continued to prevaricate. Within 3 days they essentially revoked all they said on that Friday the 13th. With each passing day since then, they have increasingly become more draconian in their measures.

I personally find the PL and EPL actions commendable.

Rob Halligan
43 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:39:49
Brian # 38, if / when next season starts tells me one thing, that this season has no chance of being completed. What does Aldridge think the virus is going to do, go away for a couple of months just so the RS can win the league, then come back again? To write off next season means the virus is still around, not gone away just to please the red shite.

Aldridge is one RS bellend. If the season is cancelled and the premier league award the title to the shite, which is what I think will happen, at least it will be a tainted one. One won by default.

By the way, just been out with the dog to Calderstones park, and I couldn't believe it when there were small pockets of kids playing football. Unbelievable. Do their parents not give a fuck about the seriousness of what's happening? What's the point of closing schools if kids are only going to abuse the reason why they are not in school in the first place?

Mark Andersson
44 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:46:48
Off topic, I have just watched "The English Game" on Netflix. Brilliant show worth watching. One of the main characters looks like our own Leighton Baines.

Learnt so much about the origins of the FA.

Brent Stephens
45 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:49:19
Forgive me for the light-hearted note but just pissed myself with this. John Crace in the Grauniad describes the government's recent messages on coronavirus as the best since "a leech a day keeps the doctor away".

Bill Gall
46 Posted 24/03/2020 at 13:53:11
Playing behind closed doors is simply a selfish attitude with no regards to the number of people who rely on the premier league and other clubs for their income.

I said on another site that the money people will try anything to persuade the authorities to continue playing to stop large losses of their projected income.

Typically the media giants and broadcasters use the premier league as an example to help their case.

It is about time that the authorities realize that this is a pandemic that can "KILL" and no sport can carry on until it is completely clear.

As has been stated there is no such thing as an empty stadium by using the expression (behind closed doors).

This suggestion to me is an insult to all the medical staff and its support groups, who are spending hours battling this outbreak, for the football authorities to even suggest it.

Football has been going on since 1878 and survived 2 world wars, surely a loss of a end of season early will not end it. It may be difficult but it is about time the authorities realize that the consequences of playing, should come before the financial gains, and ambitions of others.

Tony Everan
47 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:01:37
There's going to be 500 a day dying in 2 weeks time here, so they can pack it in talking about protecting salaries.

Players and clubs have to take the hit. 50% pay cuts for all earning over a set amount. What player could throw his toys out of the pram if wages are temporarily reduced from 100 000 to 50 000 per week?

Do the moral thing and cancel it now and make preparations for next season starting in September or October.

Patrick McFarlane
48 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:23:41
Sorry Jay, only trying to give MY take on events as I saw them unfold. I'll try harder in future not to trot out blanket stereotypical views of the footballing authorities. Your pomposity at times knows no bounds.
Jay Wood

49 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:37:47
Oh don't be so sensitive Patrick!

I enjoy your contributions.

You have been a welcome addition to TW.

You are not being denied your opinion.

Just having it challenged, and not in a rude, abrasive, aggressive, disdainful or 'pompous' manner as some TWers employ as their default response.

If you don't like the content or the nature of my posts, simple. You are not obliged to read or engage with them.

Your choice.

Joe McMahon
50 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:45:28
Well, like many, I feel other things in life are far more important at the moment (I have a family member in hospital at the moment). Rather than behind closed doors, I'd rather the season just be cancelled. Very tough on Leeds and WBA though, but we have to be realistic and members of the public need to listen to Boris.
Patrick McFarlane
51 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:47:16
Jay #49,

I thank you for your kind remarks and I certainly enjoy the majority of your posts especially those that illuminate us about many aspects of the game and indeed the current crisis, aided and abetted by the many factual links that you provide.

However, on this particular subject, I have to wonder why so many of us on here were agonising about what action to take had the Goodison derby have taken place on the scheduled date. From that perspective, I would continue to argue that the football authorities were more interested in the financial implications rather than the health of the public.

Brian Williams
52 Posted 24/03/2020 at 14:58:22
The behind closed doors idea merely illustrates that those involved are looking at the situation from purely a business, money, aspect.
I'm sure it doesn't really surprise us that that boils down to a case of "fuck the fans let's get this done so nobody loses out financially."
Mark Guglielmo
53 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:00:37
Jay @39 name your price mate. There is a 0% chance of football being played by May 15, or any season, anywhere, completing by June 30.

I forgot where you live but you may remember I live within 40 miles of NYC. Between New York and New Jersey (where I am), there are 26,000+ cases and already over 200+ deaths. The United States has 46,000 and counting, with 588 deaths and counting. One week ago, we had 6,411 cases and 109 deaths.

For context, the entirety of the United Kingdom has 7,860 reported cases and 337 deaths.

The sheer volume of people who are not taking this seriously - especially here between the 2 coasts - is astounding.

So yeah, name that bet.

Harry Wallace
54 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:16:54
Play it behind closed door. Wrap up season. Delay new season slightly if required. Only Solution.
Mark Guglielmo
55 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:28:41
Why Harry @54? Why does it need to finish? Why is that the only solution?

I can't think of anything that's less important than football right now.

Harry Wallace
56 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:31:43
Completing the season means everyone can move on. If we don't complete it causes many headaches. We cannot delay next season significantly. And no chance of footy in full stadiums for 5-6 months in my opinion
Harry Wallace
57 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:33:52
Brian they aren't thinking business. They are thinking safety of fans. Full stadiums anytime soon is madness
Brent Stephens
58 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:37:30
To say "play it behind closed doors" concedes that there's a virus-transmission danger. Playing it behind closed doors protects the general public from the players and all others working in the ground, but it doesn't protect them (those inside) from each other.

This is selfish beyond belief now. Willing to protect the (rest of the) public but willing to endanger the lives of those behind the locked doors.

There is no way any player currently infected but undetected / asymptomatic could come into such close contact with other players and not endanger them.

Would you be willing to endanger your own this way? And it's not only flu.

Mark Guglielmo
59 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:43:55
Everyone can move on...except the players, coaches, referees (actually they can go expose themselves at will), staff, and so forth. And their families. And everyone their families come into contact with. And on and on and on.

Are they just acceptable loss or something?

Which causes more headaches, no football or dead people?

Si Cooper
60 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:47:50
Probably going to be a lone voice but I think a behind closed doors schedule could be worked out to get the season over and done with. I'm talking logistics and not increasing the risk to the public rather than ethics or morality for the moment.
Not sure why the players couldn't isolate themselves for a five week period (as they might do if they were touring) with a one week screening week prior to the restart and travel straight to and straight back from the venues as was once the norm. Any player could opt out if family issues arose.
Some support staff involved but I don't see there having to be a ton of them and most could keep a safe distance. The subs bench could be limited and if there are 33 uninflected people going out onto a pitch they will still be uninflected coming off no matter how close they get to each other.
Many people are still having to travel to their workplaces and shop for fuel etc where you will inevitably touch things that many strangers have touched beforehand. Traffic and goods continue to flow around the country, and even from country to country.
Getting to ethics and morality, there is an argument that some signs of life going on in spite of the pandemic are psychologically important. As long as the conclusion of the football season didn't add to the risk to the population then I don't see an ethical conflict. The players will most likely keep their wages so they may as well perform for them and allow the clubs to recoup some of that expense. It would be nice to see a decent percentage of those wages being donated to hardship funds for those whose livelihoods really can't be allowed to continue during the current phase of this tragic crisis.
John Pierce
61 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:50:50
Mark. ✊🏼✊🏼✊🏼

The amount of people especially here in US who are ignoring the very clear and present danger is stunning. How can a health pandemic be political? It's stupefying.
The massive irony is most red states weren't even bothered two weeks ago, and yet their population demographics are the most at risk! Stay safe my man.

Tony Abrahams
62 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:52:46
They are saying that The USA, could become the next epicentre of this horrible virus Mark, and the amount of suffering is coming down in age. If this is the case I'm wondering why?
Anthony Murphy
63 Posted 24/03/2020 at 15:58:42
I haven't read all posts here, so forgive me if this is somewhere else but I thought Gary Neville made a very good point about playing behind closed doors to complete the season. If Liverpool play at Anfield in a title winning game, the streets around the stadium will be chaotic. Same applies to teams like Leeds and others needing a win to stay up/win promotion etc. People won't stay away when a title is at stake.
John Pierce
64 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:00:56
If it's safe for the players then it's safe for the fans. No in between, no fudging. All or nothing.
Tony Abrahams
65 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:01:18
It looks like JP has answered that question and, going along with what Si has said @60, it wouldn't surprise me if they are thinking of using one venue, or training grounds.

But I'm on the side of everyone who wants to forget about football for the foreseeable future, especially with things only likely going to get worse.

John McFarlane Snr
66 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:17:03
Hi John [aka Patrick] {51}

I have to agree with you in as much as I believe that the Premier League, in even considering the possibility of staging matches behind closed doors, are flying in the face of Government orders, and risk putting people in a potentially dangerous situation. I understand, but don't agree with their concerns, but I feel that they are putting money before human life.

After nearly 72 years of watching [and sometimes enjoying] football, I am losing the enthusiasm I once had. I appreciate that as long ago as the 19th century when footballers were supposed to be amateurs, there was money in the boots of certain players.

I believe that the modern game is the 'Money Game' and scruples count for nothing, unfortunately I can only see it getting worse. I will continue to attend matches, but I will concentrate on events on the pitch and leave the politics of the game to those who like that sort of thing.

Stan Schofield
67 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:17:04
Si@60: In principle that could be done, but in practice it would be impossible because of what Anthony@63 points out. There are so many unknowns that it's best to be precautionary and simply void the season.
Neal Kernohan
68 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:21:14
Players wont even be training, wont be getting treatment for injuries, or even be match fit for months! Let alone if any of them get the virus! Nothing let alone football will return to normality for a long time!
Brian Wilkinson
70 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:23:40
Only when this virus has cleared should we even discuss restarting the league.

John Barnes and a few others have said the season needs to be completed, even behind closed doors.

Now I dislike our neighbours like the next man, but the real fans there, the season ticket holders who just like us Evertonians, renew their season tickets year after year.

To finish the season off behind closed doors is denying their season ticket holders the right to watch, to be there.

Take out all the snide good etc, As an Evertonian, I would be raging if we had the chance of the title and was denied being there, due to being played behind closed doors.

Whatever happens, they need to remove the thought of playing behind closed doors.

But above all, we need to put football on the backfoot, there are far more worrying times than trying to finish the season off.

Neal Kernohan
71 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:23:42
Also, many players will be out of the country with family and the chances of getting flights to play behind closed doors could also be a very long time!
Mark Guglielmo
72 Posted 24/03/2020 at 16:47:32
John @61 you are spot on. The combination of selfishness, arrogance, and lack of common sense that the vast majority of America is demonstrating right now is actually infuriating. I've literally had people say to me "well, maybe you should reconsider where you live."

I have to stop myself short of rooting for the virus now.

Tony @62 we are a HUGE country with countless entry points. More than 3,000 flights come in & out of NYC's 3 major airports daily. Without making this political, our leadership simply failed to take it seriously when news first broke from China (January 3rd), continued to not take it seriously, and then some more, and so on. By that time, it was estimated that 100s of 1000s of people were carrying the disease, and that's how you wind up with a pandemic.

The US has experienced its positive test results doubling every 2 days. By Thursday, we'll have over 100k cases and have blown past China.

Tony Abrahams
73 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:15:03
Frightening, Mark, and that's before even beginning to think about the political implications of where this is all going to end up.
Frank McGregor
74 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:16:21
John #61 and Mark #72,

It is my understanding that travel to the USA from China was stopped by President Trump at the beginning of January due to the virus. The media, along with others, castigated him out of sight for being anti-China.

The current administration are trying to put a Bill through the Senate to benefit all Americans affected by the shutdown. Unfortunately, people like Schumer and Pelosi and company are blocking the Bill going through to benefit the very people they say they care for. Pelosi is a "Judas" to the American people.

Ray Roche
75 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:30:43
Joe @50

It may be tough on Leeds and WBA but if the season is cancelled, denying them of promotion, let them start next season with the points difference that they enjoy now, same with the other divisions.

This would give them an advantage from the get-go. Neither side are guaranteed promotion at this moment anyway.

Of course, this would not include the Premier League.

Eric Paul
76 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:31:58
Anthony @63,

Every match-going kopite I have spoken to has said if they play behind closed doors they will go to the ground, even over-70s.

Billy Roberts
77 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:34:34
Neal #71,

Sorry but I don't understand your point. How will these players and families get out of the country to begin with?

John McFarlane Snr
78 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:37:19
Hi Eric [76],

Because of the current situation, I haven't seen every match going Kopite that I know, but I feel sure that he would say the same.

Ray Roche
79 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:40:08

There are plenty of aircraft flying over North Wales, admittedly, less than usual, but a friend of mine who is a commercial pilot says that there are plenty of freight flights in operation all over the world.

Today's footballer would almost certainly use a private jet, different rules if you have money.

Eric Paul
80 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:46:36
John @78

😂 You are lucky to only know one, I don't socialise with any but I work with a few (yes, one over 70).

Russell Smith
81 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:47:00
The season should be cancelled. ALL players should be "furloughed" (the term the government is using for people laid off due to the coronavirus lock-down), which means the government will pay 80% of their wages up to a maximum of �/month. This will save most clubs, in all divisions, from going bust and will bring the players back into the reality that most other people in the country are now facing.

We all have "contracts" but all of these are superseded by the special measures being introduced by the government to fight the virus. Why should footballers be any different?

Billy Roberts
82 Posted 24/03/2020 at 17:50:46
I made a point earlier about what I thought was a legal requirement for an Ambulance to be present at all professional football matches, I'm sure Boxing and Rugby would be the same.

All these sports have the opportunity for a serious injury to occur, I think this may have changed for football at least after Petr Czek broke his skull, definitely at Boxing around the time of the Mclellan and Watson tragedies. Rugby goes without saying can and often does leave players with spinal injuries.

So if we have to finish this season off across all 4 divisions, we would require an ambulance crew at 80 Premier League games, more at the Championship and so on. Can someone tell me if I'm correct in thinking this and also how people feel about this use of our Ambulance service?

Will the clubs provide their own emergency vehicles? I wouldn't think that would be allowed for many reasons.

Brent Stephens
83 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:03:02
Russell #81. I don't know about any legal position on this but from an ethical point of view I'd be outraged if the government (ultimately us!!) ended up paying 80% of the wages of such highly rewarded people.
Jay Wood

84 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:04:39
Billy @ 82.

That is a very powerful and salient point about ambulance crews attending sport events, be it in front of empty or full stadiums.

That would border on a wicked and obscene allocation of already overburdened public health resources at this time.

Yet one more very pertinent point to factor into the hypothetical resumption of professional sport in the UK, or any other country.

Michael Barrett
85 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:05:15
The first local guy who I know to die from this is a famous scouse entertainer, Cy Tucker... RIP.

Google him if you don't know Liverpool that well... he was my best mate' uncle. Very sad.

John Pierce
86 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:31:07
Billy, a point well made. I made the same point about resources weeks ago. The idea that you deprive just one person of the vital services they need is surely enough to render you paralyzed with guilt.

Sports clogs travel arteries and also takes police away from helping others. To think even after it's all over those services with need time to recover and rest. The idea of restarting sports, entertainment and events in the immediate aftermath seems crass and wholly inappropriate.

Jamie Crowley
87 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:39:30
Brent @ 41 -

You're on. I think the wager should be a beer. Whomever loses has to send the other's beer of choice to them. Yes, ship a package across the Atlantic consisting of a single beer of choice. Keeps the cost down, and it'll be fun. Why not?

If you're on, let me know / confirm. I'll check the thread throughout the next day or so. I'll post my email of Facebook link or whatever, where you can reach me so you don't have to concern yourself with any identity issues. I will, without hesitation, send you a beer if you win. I trust you enough to do the same.

I expect to lose. Confirm by TW handshake via post. May 15th, they're back.

Des Farren
88 Posted 24/03/2020 at 18:54:28
Shankly's well-publicised comment all those years ago about football being much more important than life/death does seem a bit shallow in the face of our present crisis.
Dave Abrahams
89 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:03:14
Michael (85), yes knew him well from long ago, Tucker Thornton, Paul Doyle, a lad I grew up with, started off with Tucker in their teens and was part of his group “Cy Tucker and the Friars”. What a singer and what a voice, he just to sing on The Clock in Salisbury Street every Sunday afternoon, Monday night and Thursday night, his cousin joined him doing comedy, Davy Royal (stage name) Tucker was still singing in Smokey Mo's in Charlotte Street, on a Monday night, we'd knock on the window to him and he'd come in and have a chat with us before he went on.

Lovely fella Tucker who lived for singing and should have made it bigger than he did, he will be well missed by many people who drank in the pubs and clubs of Liverpool, RIP Tucker.

Michael, I might have taken a liberty using your site for this topic, do us a favour, give this post a couple of hours please.

Chris Williams
90 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:07:57

Cy Tucker and the Friars. I saw them on Aintree Institute and OPB about 1964/65. In those days all the bands were great!


You can imagine how that name was changed by the Scouse youth of the time?

Teenagers eh?

Robert Williams
91 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:09:12
Don't know about 'closed doors' but this pandemic has certainly flushed Eugene Ruane out into the open.

Stay well and stay here Eugene, your 'fans' need you!!

Michael Barrett
92 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:13:32
Chris there used to be coach loads of women go to the Big House on a Sunday from Wigan and St Helens.

He was defo loved by all who saw him play... scary days for us all to come I think. Take care, mate.

Dave Abrahams
93 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:13:57
Chris (90), yes that's we used to call him, Sly Fucker, but he took it well, and he could come back with some, he had a sharp wit.
Bill Watson
94 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:16:57
This latest from the Premier League is on a par with the woman, on LBC, who insisted she was an essential worker as she ran a nail bar!

Forget about this season; it's over, finished, null and void. Football's attention should be focussed on whether next season will start on time, if at all.

Just be thankful we had the winter break, one of the loudest proponents of which was one Herr Klopp!!

Brent Stephens
95 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:20:12
Jamie #87.

Jamie, my generous friend! Yes, post ur email so I can let you have my postal address for that beer!

TW handshake!

Brent @ 41 -
You're on. I think the wager should be a beer. Whomever loses has to send the other's beer of choice to them. Yes, ship a package across the Atlantic consisting of a single beer of choice. Keeps the cost down, and it'll be fun. Why not?

If you're on, let me know / confirm. I'll check the thread throughout the next day or so. I'll post my email of Facebook link or whatever, where you can reach me so you don't have to concern yourself with any identity issues. I will, without hesitation, send you a beer if you win. I trust you enough to do the same.

I expect to lose. Confirm by TW handshake via post. May 15th, they're back.

Michael Barrett
96 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:38:36
Well said, Dave Abrahams.
John Keating
97 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:42:46
Cy Tucker. There's a name from the past. Used to see him every Sunday afternoon in the Clock in Salisbury Street.

Good lad.

Niall McIlhone
98 Posted 24/03/2020 at 19:47:03
The closed doors option would hand a massive advantage to Man City, who are well used to it.
Derek Taylor
99 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:20:54
Any interruption of the cashflow betwixt the broadcasting giants and the Premier clubs puts the professional game as we know it at risk. Just how could the clubs meet their contracted commitments were seasons be written off or truncated?

Surely no one could expect our superstars to turn out were their rewards to be reduced as they are for holders of most 'proper jobs'? Their agents just wouldn't allow it.

Jay Wood

100 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:27:24
Carlo made a call to a blue isolated at home, already suffering from MS.

Just watch and listen how natural, relaxed and sympathetic he is with the fan, who himself is very respectful to Carlo.

I am so pleased he is our manager. He's a very good fit with our club.


Bill Gall
101 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:32:55
Cy Tucker, he was a great entertainer always went to see him when we went home, seen him at Coopers, Smokey Mo's and the Big House. I even have a 45-rpm record of him singing on one side and the comedian who played with him on the other side; I think he went to Spain. Talking about the Big House, I remember going there in the 60s when they had 4 snooker tables in the back.

He will be missed, had a lot of fans that came over from Ireland. Never a dull night with Tucker and the Friars. I think his last night at Coopers was one of the best I ever saw.

Tony Everan
102 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:37:09
Jay 100

Thanks for posting that link up, cheered me up tonight. We are indeed lucky to have Carlo as a manager, what a star he is in every aspect.

Paul Hewitt
103 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:47:25
Just cancel the season. Yes, clubs will complain that it's unfair. But this is something no -one could have predicted. Let's just get ready for a new season in August.
Derek Taylor
104 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:50:24
Bit over the top that, Tony? On his money, I'd put a call into the devil if the media department asked me to!
Eric Paul
105 Posted 24/03/2020 at 20:57:45
Whatever you do for a living, Derek @104, I bet you do it for as much as you can, so why shouldn't anyone else – regardless of what industry they are in.
Derek Taylor
106 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:07:17
Eric, I don't begrudge him his lifetime of good fortune. His talents have earned him that. I just thought 'class act' was a bit misplaced. To be 'classy' is to make the call and not seek kudos for doing so!
Ryan Holroyd
107 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:10:01
Why are you negative about everything, Derek? You're such a miserable old prick.
Patrick McFarlane
108 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:14:05
Carlo is an employee of the club and, if the club ask him to make a call to someone in need, he is obliged to do so – or he, like all of the playing staff, do it because they have bought into the Everton family culture. I prefer the latter option and believe it to be a choice rather than an obligation.
Derek Taylor
109 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:17:43
Ryan: Probably like Tony Marsh, I see through the bullshit which these media circuses endlessly trot out. Moyes and his "People's Club" (which really emanated from the then PRO) was another example!
Bill Watson
110 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:19:11
Derek; there's few as cynical as myself but the bottom line is that he didn't need to do it. He seems a genuinely nice bloke.
Dave Abrahams
111 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:20:21
Jay (100), thanks for the link, Carlo looked like he was a neighbour chatting over the fence to Mark, who was obviously surprised and delighted that Carlo was talking to him and showed his respect to Carlo, and Carlo showed his style with “Just call me Carlo, I'm Carlo not mister.”

I thought it was great and felt it, listening to Mark with his illness and making light of it. Best wishes to you, Mark, I bet that call from Carlo gave you a buzz and the best tonic you could have had, keep you going for a bit. God bless.

Michael Barrett
112 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:21:07
Bill, imagine Coopers now with this virus... shit, 300 people crammed into a space big enough for about 100. I used to dread my round in there, you were at the bar 15 minutes before the barmaid even looked at you.

Jamie Crowley
113 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:30:04
Brent @ 95 -

Do the proverbial "friend request" and I'll FB instant message you my email address.


You're on. It's official.

Si Cooper
114 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:38:55
The ambulance crews and idiots turning out in the streets are 2 good points, although I was presuming any resumption of the season would have to be backed by the relevant authorities. Are we in danger of running out of paramedics now that all non-essential treatment has been postponed (essential includes emergency treatment for any of us going about officially sanctioned activity, and even dopes doing daft things)?

On the subject of dopes doing daft things, I would mobilise the police and military to forcibly round up any bunch of feckwits congregating in the streets and lock them in some rudimentary shelter and see which of them emerge after a suitable quarantine period has let evolution take its course.

On a more serious note, is it really possible that people would ignore that the season had been allowed to reach its conclusion just so their club wouldn't miss out on its little patch of history and not simply defer their public celebration until later? Can you imagine the worldwide denunciation of such a bunch of twats!

Not sure why the ‘rights' of season ticket holders holds such sway over such a unique and problematic issue. Surely that would just be between them and the clubs to sort out a fair compensation?

Bill Gall
115 Posted 24/03/2020 at 21:57:30
Michael #112,

You must have been in the now to get served in 15 min, we used to get a double round in and put money together for a big tip to the bar staff that helped a little but after 10 o'clock it was as you say, just luck to catch the barmaid's eye. It shows the attraction of the group that bars clamoured for his performances as he nearly always provided them with a full house.

Brent Stephens
116 Posted 24/03/2020 at 22:00:08
Jamie - done.
Tony Everan
117 Posted 24/03/2020 at 22:33:40
Derek T, You've changed my mind. What an opportunistic bastard that Ancelotti is. You would really think he would just shut the fuck up and go and bathe in the milk of an ass in his ivory tower, whilst looking at his bank balance on his waterproof iPhone 11. Donning nowt but his gold and laurel wreath.

It's so bleeding annoying him making these 'fake' phone calls and expecting the gullible to fall in line with getting 'Carlo Magnifico' tattoos on our bums (when it's safe to be so punctured). Shame on him, especially since it was with a staunch Evertonian who is worried and already suffering with an illness. I bet Mark is properly traumatised by the whole sordid affair.

Dick Fearon
118 Posted 24/03/2020 at 22:45:31
Men and Women ToffeeWebbers – your contributions to this topic have been wide-ranging intelligent and informative. I am proud and reassured that our Blue community offers the same concerns and solutions as myself. I may not agree with all posters but they also elicit counter-points and aspects I had not previously thought of.

Here in Oz, the government passed severe laws instantly shutting down thousands of businesses and the sacking of millions of workers. The next morning, the relevant Government web site crashed and Welfare departments in all towns were inundated with queues snaking around the block. The minister in charge of that department said, "I did not anticipate such demand!"

Michael Barrett
119 Posted 24/03/2020 at 23:02:37
Me mates were on the door there, Bill, plus I was a good looking fucker in those days... hahaha. We only used to go on a Sunday afternoon for a few after the Liverpool Arms and the Bank, then back to Vauxhall Road were we lived.
Kunal Desai
120 Posted 24/03/2020 at 23:21:25
I'm sorry but life is worth risking irrespective whether or not your a footballer or a supporter.

A potential vaccine may not be available until 12-18 months time. All football should be scraped until the 21-22 season.

Ian Riley
121 Posted 25/03/2020 at 00:41:15
If this was to happen then dates of matches should be in secret. No television cameras. I am amazed this is under discussion. We are not close to the peak yet and God only knows how long this will be.

The thing is there are sections of the public are not realising that staying in prevents the spread of the disease. If people stay in, it slows the disease down. Thus reducing the impact on the NHS. Equipment, staff, and supplies which are in short supply as the hospitals are inundated and staff are getting the disease. The death rate is rising daily. What will it take? The coffins lined up on the Goodison Park pitch?

The future is in our hands and that of many who are already compromised or just older. I want those older and disabled supporters back at Goodison when we are allowed. I don't want a minute of silence or applause because of our selfishness due to their passing.

Football will return!! STAY HOME PLEASE!!

Paul Jones
122 Posted 25/03/2020 at 01:02:05
The season should end and everyone's focus should be on dealing with the public health crisis and resume football when it is safe. All football clubs have resources that should be used for the public good in their communities.

I have had the misfortune to have to visit my local hospital on a daily basis – it is like entering a war zone. Those in non essential occupations really need to do what they can to give further support rather than be involved in work that has no value at the moment.

Steve Brown
123 Posted 25/03/2020 at 02:54:40
Even if the season could resume (noting all the great points made on emergency services, fans congregating outside grounds), players will have been inactive for the equivalent of a summer break and will require a pre-season type regime before they are in condition to play. Players follow a fitness plan during the summer break as they are now, but they still require 4-6 weeks to be ready for competitive matches.

China locked down Wuhan before Chinese New Year in January and is only now discussing removing it in April. The players will only begin training again until our lockdown is removed.

Also, the Euros have been postponed to next summer and the new season has to start on time to accommodate the tournament. This season is done and the only reason for still debating continuing is the stand-off between football authorities and TV companies on the commercial implications.

John Boon
124 Posted 25/03/2020 at 04:16:15
Football and politics just do not go together but there are some things that are almost impossible to avoid and some of the suggestions made on TW are excellent or deplorable depending on who you support. Personally I can only support Everton and have been since being born in Walton Hospital in August 1939. My own mother said I caused the War and I believed her until I was about seven. I have everything to agree with about John Mcfarlane's posts. Well said as you usually do.

I emigrated to Canada in 1963 but "Scousedom" has never left me. I love debating about football and even getting very annoyed when riled. However today I have once more listened to the drivel spouted by the Presidential Moron to the South of us. Because of this I have to respond to Frank @74.

Not for one minute did I ever think that I would have to mention Donald Trump, idiot of all idiots, on Toffee Web. Frank, you had the nerve to discuss the lack of empathy shown by the Democratic Party in delaying the present Bill being put through Congress. For all those Scousers and Brits living through the same difficulties who don't quite understand the US situation, this is it: The main reason for Nancy Pelosi and Schumer delaying the Bill is because the benefits presented by Disastrous Donald's Republicans are directed mainly toward the big Corporations. This is just what Trump is.

Thank you, Frank, for giving me the opportunity to vent. I live on the safe side of the Border, Thank God. Donald Trump is not only the worst President for the poor and weak; he is probably the most self-centred dreadful human being I have ever had to think about. That includes Ivan the Terrible and Nero going back, and Putin and that Fat Fellah from North Korea in present times.

Done!!! Football, my greatest love other than my family, is today totally unimportant. If it brings politics on to ToffeeWeb it is doing a great disservice to all those who want to discuss Everton. I apologise for bringing politics on to TW but if the doings of Trump are ever given any plus marks, even indirectly, then I just had to respond.

Frank, don't you remember that, just a few weeks ago, the lying toad felt it was no worse than the flu. He never deserves to have any mention on any football site. He could only bring harm to whatever he touches.

John Keating
125 Posted 25/03/2020 at 06:18:35
Most "experts" and commentators seem to think we are a few weeks behind Italy. If that is correct do the football authorities seriously think it would be acceptable to even think about playing a game when possibly 700-800 people a day are dying?

Football is a corrupt sport at many levels, primarily at the top. The sooner these fuckwits are put in their place, the better. The "union" rep Bobby Barnes included.

Martin Berry
126 Posted 25/03/2020 at 08:24:36
Due to the Coronavirus, this season's domestic and European football season is finished and I don't understand how Uefa and the Premier League don't get that?

There is no way it will be back in business in June, even if the virus starts to dissipate by then, as normality will be introduced gradually.

The only thing they have to decide is if the current domestic league standings will stand or be seen as void.

James Hughes
127 Posted 25/03/2020 at 09:01:34
They are converting the Excel exhibition centre into a 4,000 bed hospital to assist in the care needed. This is how big the problem is.

But hey, no worries we can play behind closed doors as somethings are important

Dick Fearon
128 Posted 25/03/2020 at 09:19:36
After just a few games behind closed doors Aussie Rules stopped its season just before the government banned all get togethers of more than 10 persons.
For those who don't know, 'Rules' is Australias major spectator sport.
Of interest to football is negotiations are under way between Rules authorities and their players union about reducing players wages. the main sticking point is whether wages should be cut by 75 %.
The players have accepted a cut in their wages of 50%.
If such a scenario was was suggested to Premier league players the screams would be horrendous.

John Boswell
129 Posted 25/03/2020 at 09:40:26
I don't think that many people are optimistic that the C19 situation will have settled down in time for a new season to start in August. There are much more important considerations to be accounted for.
This is why I believe that we should abandon all thoughts of next season!
Take all the time needed to get this world healthy and safe, then look at the calendar and see if we can finally conclude this season, which may become 2019/2021 season.
Stay home and stay safe fellow blues. COYB.
Mike Hughes
130 Posted 25/03/2020 at 09:53:02
The football authorities may be as deluded as Donald “Arse-Wipe” Trump. Dithering, self-interest and talking out of their fat, ugly, flatulent, corrupt arseholes.

Call an end to the season now.

Nothing has been fundamentally decided in the leagues so null and void and start all over again at some point in the future.

As for awarding anything on current standings, this is not a school sports day egg-and-spoon race - so forget it. Go down that path and the PL may forever be devalued.

As for whining, odious, self-entitled RS expecting an awarding of the title, that may well happen. But this is the season nobody wants now. It is tainted with the coronavirus and (less importantly) VAR controversy.

Regardless of what the authorities decide, the 19-20 season will always have a big, brown, shit-smelling footnote next to it in the history books. When people refer to this season in the future, they will open the windows and tell people to “give it a few minutes” before continuing.
It stinks the place out.

Football does not matter in 2020.
At best, as in the writing of this post, it is a very minor distraction.
It is null and void.
Flush it down the toilet and move on.

The world is going into lockdown.
Other priorities.

Brent Stephens
131 Posted 25/03/2020 at 09:54:48
Martin “Due to the Coronavirus, this season's domestic and European football season is finished and I don't understand how Uefa and the Premier League don't get that?”

I see the cost of cancelling the Olympics is 2 billion. Is this maybe why UEFA etc want competitions finish?!

Jay Wood

132 Posted 25/03/2020 at 12:59:06
John Boon @ 124.

I can understand the sentiment of your lament - that football and politics don't mix.

However, the harsh reality is that politics exist and intrude in every aspect of our lives, be it mainstream politics, office politics or domestic politics in the home.

With the correct political leadership at the very top, the question of whether and when professional or recreational sport could recommence would be a redundant one.

It would not be a decision for sports governing bodies to make. They would have to submit to the edicts of central government.

In the absence of not having Netflix myself to pass the idle hours, admist all that has unfolded this year, I am on the 'Three Bozos Watch'.

Watching with awe and trepidation what the likes of Boris Johnson in the UK, Donald Trump in the US and Jair Bolsonaro here in Brazil will say and do next.

All 3 initially took a dismissive view of the rising threat. All 3 were primarily concerned with talking up the markets rather than preparing for and addressing the growing pandemic.

When it reached the point that they could no longer ignore it, BJ's first public address in the UK - less than two weeks ago - was such a botched job that within 3 days he revoked everything and increasingly put in place ever-more stringent controls.

He at least appears to be listening to and implementing the counsel of far wiser heads than him in how best to suppress the spread of Covid-19.

Trump was a denialist about the threat of the virus and initially was more concerned in buoying the collapsing financial markets than addressing Covid-19.

He then took good initiatives in restricting international travel and declaring a national emergency and guaranteeing financial aid to neary all Americans.

But in recent days, the super narcissist and megalomaniac is increasingly reverting to type. In Presidential election year he is more concerned with 'the numbers'. Primarily the financial numbers, but also the public opinion poll numbers.

When he starts Tweeting in capital letters, start worrying. He is quite clearly ignoring the scientific and medical advice he MUST be party to and is now talking of a 'beautiful timeline' in which the shopping malls and churches will be overflowing with happy throngs celebrating Easter. That is less than 3 weeks away.

Meanwhile, New York governor Andrew Cuomo continues to make desperate pleas to Federal Goverment to address the rising crisis in his state which 'boasts' more than half of all confirmed Covid-19 in the entire USA and nearly a third of all deaths to date.

He describes the advance of the virus as changing from a slow-moving freight train to a high-speed bullet train.

And yet in this climate, the POTUS wants the nation to throw open its doors and carry on as normal.


Then we have the worst of the lot, the Bozos of all Bozos, Bolsonaro in Brazil.

Unlike the previous two Bozos who have done some good things, 'O Mito' - 'The Myth' as his supporters like to address him - hasn't wavered. He continues to be an out-and-out denialist.

At the same time he sits down with many of his cabinet to publicly announce the measures the government intends to implement, within hours he is on social media denying the threat of the virus, berating state governments for closing schools, business and ordering home isolation, promoting the idea that this is a conspiracy to undermine his presidency driven by the media (who in fact are doing a far better job in educating the public and allaying fears than the government) and his political opponents.

This in spite of the fact that a planeload of Brazilian delegates - Bolsonaro himself, ministers, state governors, city mayors, business folk - who visited Washington and met with Trump just two weeks ago, no fewer than TWENTY TWO of that delegation have confirmed cases of Covid-19.

Last night Bolsonaro delivered an astonishing simultaneous live public broadcast on all Brazilian media channels. If the nation implements what he proposed, the virus will spread like an Amazonian bush fire.

To give you a measure of how lacking in clear leadership Brazil is at this time, let me close by giving you an example of the notorious Favelas in Brazil - the sprawling illegal shanty town you find in all major cities.

Anybody who has seen the excellent 'City of God' Brazilian movie will have a good idea of the fabric of a Favela. 50-150k inhabitants. Ad hoc constructions, rabbit hutches piled on top of each other, poor sanitation and lack of clean water, 3 generations living under one roof, often 3-4 sleeping on a cheap sponge mattress thrown on the floor. All controlled by drug gangs and organized crime.

In the absence of clear leadership at the very top, the Favela gangs have taken it upon themselves to enforce curfews and ensure people stay at home.

How condemning is that of a country's political 'leadership'?

Tony Abrahams
133 Posted 25/03/2020 at 14:18:47
Not that condemning if I'm being honest Jay. The criminal mind is brighter than most, and a lot of them are just non-conforming imo, although it's enlightening to hear that they are conforming now and trying to look after their own people!

Imagine Boris Johnson, or Trump, or your fella, sitting in a boozer with a load of educated genuine working class, and how long do you imagine they would last?

I just finished watching Mexico Narco's series two last night, it's amazing at first the way these cartels help control the government, until you think of the money involved, and then it's really easy to understand why imo?

Tony Abrahams
134 Posted 25/03/2020 at 14:25:26
The latest joke doing the rounds is that Prince Charles is in balmoral with Covid-19, whilst his brother Andrew is in Windsor with Jennifer-14, But he will be protected I'm sure.
James Hughes
135 Posted 25/03/2020 at 14:41:20
Tony #133, Agree with that post. Boris sitting with some clued-up people would be left speechless, very quickly.

He looks like a man who has got what he wished for and now realises the dream was better than reality. Last night showed that, no more live press but a closed shoot at 8:30pm.

Jay Wood

136 Posted 25/03/2020 at 15:17:01
Tony @ 134.

That's a cracker! I can see you've inherited Dave's wicked sense of humour!

As for the Brazilian Favelas, they are fertile recruiting grounds for the gangs. Disenfranchised and marginalised adolescents living in abject poverty with little or no chance to escape from it.

There's a very good piece on the BBC at the moment about how the Coronavirus was introduced to Brazil by better-heeled Brazilians with the disposal income to travel abroad.

They are largely protected, living in healthier, safer neighbourhoods, with access to private health care. The Favelas less so. On average, the salary of workers in the Favelas is less than $250 a month. Many work as domestics in the homes of the well-heeled,

The piece describes how one a 63-year-old housekeeper's employer returned from holiday to Italy with Covid-19 symptoms, but didn't tell her housekeeper she was ill.

One month on, the 'Madame' is healthy and well. The housekeeper is dead from the virus.

Read the article here.


John Boon
137 Posted 25/03/2020 at 15:34:36
Jay you have far more energy than I do. I sincerely appreciate your perspective and agree with ALL of your conclusions and your astute point of view.

If most football fans are honest they readilly admit that lack of sport causes stress and I have heard a number of presenters on TV indicate that it is a serious problem for all those who play either as an amateur or a professional. However when literally thousands of people are sick and dying we have to deal with the situation with common sense.

I live twenty minutes fron the USA border and just the sight of utterly useless, incompetent Donald has made me far less likely to visit or shop over there since he came into Office. Of late his lack of empathy and understanding has risen to new heights. The hair on the back of my head bristles when I listen to his useless drones plus his infantile personal insults to those who have the nerve to even question him, or even advise him.

While football is absent and particularly with my inbred Evertonian fanaticism from growing up near Goodison Park, I have to do other things. Politics is a poor substitute but it does bring about debate. I feel I am usually able to use the cliche, "I can see your point of view". However when I hear anyone make ANY comments about how well totally sociopathic Donald is doing as President I immediately put them in the "Rustic Idiot" class. Sorry but he drives me that mad to the point that I probably become unreasonable and even insane.

Once again I fully appreciate your elaboration and understanding during some very difficult times. You are fortunate that Brazil is far away from "D". Unfortunately you are never far enough away anywhere on the planet earth. And probably he could even negatively affect those Aliens who might visit us from outer space.

Enough said. I should confine myself to writing about the joys of growing up an Evertonian. I will always remain a TRUE BLUE oh unless Donald decides to take over from Moshiri. That could possibly make me go red. No no not that bad.

David Hayes
138 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:06:08
The unsustainable, hyper money, disgraceful and obscene payments to players and agents by Premier League clubs who use Sky and BT money to fund it has finally backfired on them all. I hope for one that they all have to pay back a large percentage of the TV money, and put to an end this obscene money-go-round once and for all.

See now the money crabbing efforts by the FA and Premier League regardless of the risk to people and players to finish the season whatever it takes. Sickening greed, Void it now, and let's concentrate on keeping everybody safe, first and always foremost... it's only a form of entertainment after all.

Steavey Buckley
139 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:32:11
It is has been reported that a worker at Everton's training ground has contacted Covid-19. Under these circumstances, any club in the Premier League who has players and staff getting affected will be closed and shut down, so, it's pointless playing any more matches in the extended season until the virus is conquered.
Dave Abrahams
140 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:45:40
David (138), the obscene wages players in the Premier League receive has sickened me for years and I bet plenty of fans feel the same way. I feel and hope there will be a huge backlash against the wages footballers receive and clubs will start assessing what they get in return for the amazing and unbelievable money they pay out to on the whole to average performers.

Fans of my age can't understand the money players receive and I hope that filters down to fans of all ages.

Patrick McFarlane
141 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:54:37
Dave #140,

I agree that the wages that 'entertainers' from all walks of life receive are completely out of kilter with what the ordinary working guy or gal receives, however, it is the market rate and the more revenue the 'entertainers' generate the greater their reward, the whole economic system would have to be re-calibrated in order to cut the excessive rewards.

Many Presenters. Newsreaders, talking heads, experts etc who are on the media gravy train are also in a money league that we as ordinary folk can only dream about.

Mike Gaynes
142 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:56:39
Tony #134, you gave me my laugh for the day!

I'm not trying to scare anybody here -- I know most of you folks take this crisis seriously, and my condolences for your locked-down lives at the moment. But it's worth it.

One of my clients is a company called Surgical Theater. They develop virtual reality and augmented reality technology for surgeons to use in complex brain and chest procedures. A thoracic surgeon at George Washington University Hospital had the idea to use the technology to map the COVID-19 virus in the lungs of a seriously ill patient.

What the imaging produced is absolutely terrifying. I persuaded ABC in Washington DC to do a story on it, and it has now been seen all over the country:

Stay home. Stay safe.

Chris Williams
143 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:56:51
John B,

I totally empathise with your views, about Everton, politics and Trump (the Orange Blert OB for short).

I appear to have retired since we sold our businesses in 2016 but my brain hasn't, so without Everton, I have my fallbacks of music, reading, film and red wine. And not necessarily always in that order.

Politics is, as you say, a poor substitute, but I can't think of a time when, almost without exception, major nations have been so poorly served by such transparently self seeking, lying morons. You have OB, we have his Ludicrous Mini Me, Jay has, well, I'm not entirely what that is in Brazil.

Last year my obsession of choice was Brexit, which this horrible virus has put paid to I guess. This year it's obvious, but it's not political yet. That reckoning hopefully comes later.

My wife and I went for a walk today for a couple of hours, by the Dee Estuary, our allotted daily exercise slot, and there were very few folk about, but all unfailingly cheerful and friendly. Everybody ended up with the same phrase.

Keep safe.

The rate of new infections has dropped in Italy for 3 consecutive days now, and that hopefully will translate into a drop in mortalities. UK is tracking Italy but a a couple of weeks behind them, and thankfully a little below their level of mortality. The man from Imperial College on TV this morning reckoned we should peak in about 3 weeks, which is sort of confirmatory, but it depends on how effectively the distancing measures are.

It's still dreadful,with many weeks still to go but maybe some sort of light at the end of the tunnel.

I miss Everton, not Premier League, Sky,RS parasite commentators or VAR. I can see no prospect of football coming back any time soon. Nor can I see any justification for some sort of manufactured return along the lines of what is being discussed.

I miss my family and friends even more.

Keep safe.

Dave Abrahams
144 Posted 25/03/2020 at 16:59:37
Patrick (141), true enough, but it looks like the whole present system will be recalculated after the financial mess they could all be in after Coronavirus has had it says.
Mark Guglielmo
145 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:02:32
USA up to 60,600+ and counting. That's an increase of 51,400 over 7 days ago, and today isn't done yet. Even with Italy probably about to announced another ~5,000 cases, we will likely pass them as the 2nd worst hit country before the day is over.

To put this in context, it took China 29 days to go from 1,000 --> 79,000.

It's going to take the U.S. less than 2 weeks to demolish that rate of infection. For further context, NY & NY are at 35,000 and NJ hasn't even reported yet. This is more than all but 4 other countries.

Chris @143, I'm sorry to be all doom & gloom, but Italy spiked right back up yesterday, going from 4,500 back to 5,300. We'll see what they announce in a couple of hours.

Mark Guglielmo
146 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:09:30
Huh, and just as I edited the above, another 5,200 for Italy, so at least it didn't go up from yesterday.
Chris Williams
147 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:19:47

I'd hesitate to say I'm optimistic, but are we talking about the same thing. I'm talking about new infections not deaths. Deaths went up by 743 yesterday up from the previous day.

New infections were down, for the third consecutive day, but when I say that figure is still at 3600, down from 3780 the previous day, well it puts it into perspective. If that trend continues though it offers some encouragement no matter how scant.

I'll take scant encouragement at the moment, but as I said many weeks to go.

Brent Stephens
148 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:27:47
Mike #142 that's alarming. Those ignoring please to stay clear of others should see this.
Mark Guglielmo
149 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:33:54
No, Chris, I think you're misunderstanding me.

Italy new cases 3/21 = 6,600 (high water mark for them)
3/22 = 5,600
3/23 = 4,800
3/24 = 5,200
3/25 = 5,200

They've gone back up yesterday & today. The deaths are another story, a grim one.

Andy Crooks
150 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:36:36
Can anyone put up some good news. I don"t care if you make it up.
Jay Wood

151 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:45:12
Andy ole son!

You won the Euro Lottery!

The bad news is, due to self-isolation restrictions it will lapse before you can leave the house to claim it.


Mike Gaynes
152 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:46:19
I'll put some up, Andy.

Hubei province in China, where the virus has killed thousands, is starting to lift its travel restrictions.

And my wife in Wuhan has been told that the lockdown there may be lifted as early as April 8.


Chris Williams
153 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:48:01

Just to emphasise the point a bit. From the Guardian

Commenting Ranieri Guerra, WHO Assistant Director General said ;

‘this is an extremely positive factor. In some regions we are close to the falling point of the curve and the peak could be reached this week and then fall. I believe that this week and the first days of next week will be crucial'

I don't think we should be quibbling about different stats, Mark. The new infections have been dropping marginally from a massive figure for 3 days, if that continues, and it's fragile, then the trend is positive, and the mortality rate is bound to follow,again from a massive high.

So scant encouragement for me, seemingly for the WHO guy, but many horrible weeks to come.

From your name Mark, I guess you or your family may have personal connections. I hope it turns out well.

Keep safe.

Mark Guglielmo
154 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:52:21
Thanks Chris. It's just very difficult here at the moment. I won't even ruin everyone's day with the financial/healthcare implications that many of us are and will continue to feel, despite our government patting themselves on the back over a $2 TRILLION stimulus package.

Here's some good news though, I'm in sweats and just ate waffles and have a good amount of toilet paper, so I got that going for me.

Chris Williams
155 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:57:05

The Guardian has just updated with Wednesdays figure. It says the new infection rate has gone down again for a FOURTH day from 3612 to 3491.

Marginal to be sure, fragile to be sure, but a trend seems to be developing.

Celebrate small victories.

It's about all we can hope for currently

Keep safe.

James Hughes
156 Posted 25/03/2020 at 17:58:43
Mike G. good news. hope you're all back together soon
Brian Williams
157 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:00:39
Andy #150.

I was out for my government-approved exercise today in the lovely sunshine and literally stumbled upon a small leather bag that contained almost ١,000. No form of ID or anything in it – just the dosh!

Chris Williams
158 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:02:47

That bag could be mine!

Brian Williams
159 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:04:08
Chris. Could HAVE been lol!
Mark Guglielmo
160 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:06:05
Chris @155, first, thank you, we're doing our best!

And I figured out why our 2 numbers are so far off. Italy reports their cases to the WHO in an odd fashion (the only country I know of that does this).

The number they report is total new cases - RECOVERED patients = reported number. So we're both right, in a way. There are 5,200 new cases, of which roughly 1,700 recovered, giving the WHO that 3,500 number. Just thought that might help.

Cheers mate. You be safe too.

John McFarlane Snr
161 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:10:14
Hi Dave {140] I said at the time that Sky threw it's money at the Premier League teams, that the clubs started at the wrong end. I felt that instead of spending ridiculous amounts of money on transfers, which subsequently meant ridiculous salaries,the first they thing should have done, [in my opinion] was to start at the 'bottom'? and study the supporters. Cheaper match day admission, and season tickets, improved facilities, toilets, snack bars etc. Instead they started at the top of the pile, and when they reached the supporter level there was nothing left, and we were faced with an increase in both match day admission and season tickets.

I have read somewhere, that clubs could play in empty stadiums and would have no need to rely on the money of supporters, and you are 100% right when you say "Fans of our age can't understand the money today's players receive" I believe that the fault does not rest with the players, the blame should be placed at the doors of the relevant "Club Directors".

Chris Williams
162 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:31:40
Cheers Mark,

Any chance of some of that toilet paper?

Jay Wood

163 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:42:01
Andy Crooks, a genuine good news story for you.

Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund players have taken a pay cut due to the crisis. I wasn't aware Gunter Netzer's old team (loved him as a player!) Borussia Mönchengladbach already did so last week.


I hope many a high earner and clubs around the world follow this example.

Throw into that million euro contributions made by individual managers and players to various related causes, also.

George Cumiskey
164 Posted 25/03/2020 at 18:53:10
I'm donating a month of my state pension to the cause. I wonder how much these obscenely rich footballers will donate?
John Keating
165 Posted 25/03/2020 at 19:41:43
A week or so ago we were all talking about over 70's not allowed to go to the match. General feeling was this virus was only deadly to oldies. Sadly we now know this is far from fact, all ages are susceptible.

Thankfully many are making a recovery from the virus; however, are we sure they won't continue to pass it on or even suffer again, and again, and again? Can we really take a chance on this thing until we know we can eradicate it?

Andy Crooks
166 Posted 25/03/2020 at 19:53:01
Love these good news stories, keep them coming. May I repeat, they only need a grain of truth.

Here's some. My lawnmower broke today. The bit you push it with (handle bars?) broke off and I flung them into the stream at the bottom of my garden.

My wife is continuing with the social distancing that she has been practising for the last 10 years. She has disinfected the house to an extent that it smells like a pub at opening time. So much joy!!!

Jay Wood

167 Posted 25/03/2020 at 20:04:26
Best (true!) good news story of the lot, Andy!

It's official!

Offies have been added to the list of 'essential retailers' to stay ope!


If it's gonna get us, at least we'll go with a sloppy smile on our faces!

Dave Abrahams
168 Posted 25/03/2020 at 20:20:00
Mike (152), glad you've got some good news, I hope your wife is back home with you very soon and you can settle back to a normal life together before too long, definitely a light at the end of a long tunnel for both of you.
Patrick McFarlane
169 Posted 25/03/2020 at 20:21:03
After a week of social distancing my mate said he finally spoke to his missus. He said 'she seemed nice' Not an original of mine but it did make me chuckle.

Apparently the Premier League top ten clubs excluding Sheffield United and Manchester City want Man City's European ban to be upheld for the coming season; they don't want City to have the ban stayed due to the appeal process – all according to the Mail.

Derek Knox
170 Posted 25/03/2020 at 20:33:52
Some people think they are hard done by, but I know of a fellow on seeing the Supermarkets empty booze shelves, resorted to drinking Brake Fluid.

Having concern for a fellow human being, I advised him that he had to be careful with that particular choice of liquid refreshment as a substitute for the real thing.

To which he replied, "I appreciate and thank you for your concern, but I can STOP anytime"! 😂😋

Joseph Mputu
171 Posted 25/03/2020 at 21:09:26
Ahoy fellows, I haven't read all of the above as I have been too busy learning to play the ukulele. I guess we all need something to keep us occupied during social distancing. Which brings me to my point, I am not sure if this has already been made, but even if it has it is worth reiterating.

Please can someone explain how the current social distancing rules will be applied in these games? Will it be 1 person per side to avoid breaking the rule on social gathering numbers? Perhaps some teams might gain an advantage by fielding family groups.

Of course the rules may have been relaxed by June, but really does football not have a moral duty to call off the season in acknowledgement of its peripheral importance. In 1985 Liverpool played a European final with corpses on the terraces. Even though they would surely have been champions, I cannot believe that they want to be involved in playing out what has become an irrelevant competition with corpses as spectators once again.

Mike Hughes
172 Posted 25/03/2020 at 21:23:21
Some more good news in these alarming times.

Lidl management have stated that, due to panic buying and general pandemonium within their stores, they have agreed to open another till.

Paul Birmingham
173 Posted 25/03/2020 at 21:23:41
It's unprecedented times for the world, and why add to the daily growing problems by trying to complete a contact sport behind closed doors, and blatantly defying the WHO and UK government advice.

Regardless of this season, it' should be postponed and declared nul and void, under matters beyond our reasonable control. The FA must consider the bigger picture and not just about their annual jollies on tax payers monies.

The same applies across the world. Let's work collectively as one, and get the world cleansed of this virus, which depending on what sources you use to check COVID 19, could be a long way off in the future.

All stay safe, and healthy.

Jack Convery
174 Posted 25/03/2020 at 21:34:10
To coin a phrase - it doesn't take much to see that the problems of the EPL / UEFA / FIFA don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you'll understand that.
Jack Convery
175 Posted 25/03/2020 at 21:36:48
Oh and another thing. The last thing the NHS needs is a footballer with a broken leg coming into A&E. Just keep it closed and void this season – it's the only common-sense thing to do.
Paul Setter
176 Posted 25/03/2020 at 22:34:06
I think, whatever the Premier League is adamant will happen, the Government will have other ideas, and that will be that.

This issue really isn't going away despite what the money men at Sky, Premier League etc think. As soon as Big Bad Boris says otherwise, then they will have to null and void regardless.

Brian Williams
177 Posted 25/03/2020 at 22:45:35
This season'll be completed somehow, some way, mark my words!
Mike Gaynes
178 Posted 26/03/2020 at 01:58:19
I'm sure you Brits already know this (and besides, you're already asleep), but I just watched a news report here in the States about how your NHS asked for volunteers to help provide support in the coronavirus crisis... and A HALF MILLION of you have already come forward. Risking your lives and health to help others, no compensation or anything.

That could never, ever happen here. Britain is awesome. Congratulations. Proud to be your former possession.

Mike Galley
179 Posted 26/03/2020 at 02:15:40
That's true Mike. Thank you for mentioning it. I myself phoned someone I know who works for the NHS to volunteer (I work for Fords and am off for four weeks on full pay, so am in a good position to help).

But, after explaining my position with regards to Mum getting over a cancer operation, and doing the shopping etc to keep mum and dad in the house (they're both 77 and on a high-risk list), I was told it'll be okay as they're over-subscribed with volunteers, and are in the fortunate position of being able to cherrypick volunteers!!!

Although, at some point, they'll probably utilise everyone. Take care over there and I hope things work out for all your family.

Eric Myles
180 Posted 26/03/2020 at 06:37:44
Mike Gaynes, despite the well wishing from others may I respectfully suggest that remaining in Wuhan is probably the safest place for your family right now.

Irrespective of the difficulty of transport, if the area is indeed in remission the last thing you want to do is encourage them to be at risk in travelling through, and into, countries where the transmission rates are much higher.

You'll be reunited soon enough, ensure that it is at no risk to any of you.

Darren Hind
181 Posted 26/03/2020 at 06:45:35

Note pushed through my letterbox last night.

"Brothers and sisters. These are testing times. We are all in this fight together. We must support each other. We must look after each other, especially the elderly. If there is anything you need call me on 078..."

I looked out of my door to see Billy, a card-carrying Kopite, slowly shuffling from door to door pushing this note through everybody's letterbox.

Billy's 85

Ray Roche
182 Posted 26/03/2020 at 08:04:12
Mike @178

“Your former possession”.

Yeah, we dodged one offloading you buggers 😁

Dave Evans
183 Posted 26/03/2020 at 08:41:24
Ray @182
We got our 'ass' kicked out.
Tony Abrahams
184 Posted 26/03/2020 at 08:48:32
Jay@136, what a state that is, I can only say that I hope the people in the favela's, catch up with the person who never told her housekeeper, that she was suffering with this Covid-19.

I was on holiday last year, (the things we took for granted.) and bumped into a few sensible scousers who were staying in our hotel. Great time a bit packed by the only pool that was heated, (it was April, usually my favourite time of the year) and this old lady was standing up whilst these two younger women who she was with had sun beds.

I grabbed a bed made room and gave it to the old woman, (she was very grateful) and was barely acknowledged by the other two, fuming- this kid grabbed me and said “lad- she's only their nanny- don't think about it, it will only drive you mad” It made me worse obviously, fucking expecting the woman to look after their kids, but wouldn't even get her a bed, it's a good job this kid was there to stop me causing mayhem.

That's a great story about “old Billy” Darren, that's the spirit, people think they've got everything in this world, but the truth is, “most people” are much more important than possessions, let us at least hopefully learn this!

Ray Roche
185 Posted 26/03/2020 at 08:59:33

I'm well aware of that Dave, but those buggers have been rewriting history for years, it's about time we did too!

Dave Evans
186 Posted 26/03/2020 at 09:00:52
There is no way tens of thousands of spectators will be congregating in football stadiums for many months.
Even if the science says it's low risk. The media and political pressure mean it wouldn't be considered before the autumn. That then takes us towards the winter and the virus season.

But money talks. I expect closed door football from June and the foreseeable future.

Derek Taylor
187 Posted 26/03/2020 at 09:26:56
I hear the Premier League bureaucrats are working round the clock to determine a means of awarding THEM the champions title without playing any more games.

Their preferred solution is on 'a points per game played' basis. (It will still have to carry a ** for all time, though!)

Dave Ganley
188 Posted 26/03/2020 at 09:32:51
Joseph #171, You're working on the assumption that those across the park have some kind of moral compass, well they don't. All you hear is that lot bleating how unfair it is, ex-players wading in too.

Well unfair is them rioting in 85 and killing 39 people, unfair is getting all English clubs banned from Europe, unfair is them glorying in their infamy. They have no shame and it's all so unfair for them. And they have the cheek to call us bitter.

Bill Watson
189 Posted 26/03/2020 at 09:55:48
I've just been reading the posts about 'new' infections. In the UK we have absolutely no idea how many new infections there are because the only people being tested are those in hospital who appear to have it. Even the NHS frontline staff aren't being tested.

It's interesting to compare the death figures for France and Germany who have a large common border and similar populations. As of yesterday the total deaths in France were over 1100 but in Germany it was under 200.

The reason appears to be that from the start Germany was testing and, if someone tested positive, people they'd been in contact with were traced and put into self isolation.

It's a national scandal we have virtually no testing equipment (or other safety equipment) and the price we're paying is hundreds of unecessary deaths. The government appear to be dodging the bullet for a decade of chronically underfunding the NHS.

Eric Myles
190 Posted 26/03/2020 at 10:13:01
Ray #185, it was only 'cos the French helped them out.

And despite our warnings about them trusting the French, they ignored us and then look what happened.

Freedom Fries in all the MacDonalds!

Dave Evans
191 Posted 26/03/2020 at 11:20:20
Bill @ 189

If you test a lot of people, confirmed cases will be higher. The death rate as a percentage of those confirmed cases will be lower. If you test fewer people, many cases of infection are not known. So the percentage death rate will appear higher. Germany are also doing fewer tests post-mortem to confirm Corvid 19 as cause of death. As say Italy do.

It is also thought possible that a younger demographic of returning German skiers and holiday makers brought the initial infections to Germany. The average age of infected Germans with Corvid-19 is mid-forties. In Italy it is mid-sixties.

Germany certainly has a good health care system and what is going on there has caught the eyes of world scientists. But as German scientists and clinicians themselves know, the next few weeks will tell if all is as it first seems.

A spike in the infection of the elderly population and therefore the number of deaths may still occur.

Brian Murray
192 Posted 26/03/2020 at 11:37:17
Dave Ganley, post 188, as their motto is (or should be): Outraged by everything, ashamed of nothing.
Chris Williams
193 Posted 26/03/2020 at 11:39:22
I've just been reading about the large drop in UK deaths yesterday to 41. It seems there may have been a change in the method of compiling them.

Apparently it has been decided to consult with each bereaved family, prior to releasing the aggregate figure. Consequently the figures will be released each morning from now on.

This seems odd, if true. This story may unfold over the day. t may be we see an adjustment in the next figures.

Patrick McFarlane
194 Posted 26/03/2020 at 12:33:06
Chris #193,

Obviously any reduction in the number of deaths reported is welcome but, as you say, there does seem to be some confusion. I read what you did about permission being needed by the unfortunate families of the bereaved prior to being added to the official figures and Public Health England's figures were last updated on Tuesday at noon – I haven't checked today so that may have altered.

Bill Watson
195 Posted 26/03/2020 at 12:50:12
Dave; I agree with the proviso that the German death rate isn't a %; it's an actual figure

The lack of testing facilities in the UK is a disgrace.

On another, but Corona related, topic I'm really disappointed that none of Everton's highly remunerated playing staff seem to have volunteered to take a pay cut when much of the club's revenue stream has been cut off.

Chris Williams
196 Posted 26/03/2020 at 13:41:21
Cheers Patrick,

The government has agreed the method and timing of announcements have changed. Didn't go into details.

I'm also reading the French deaths are probably understated because they only count the hospital deaths and don't do any post Mortem on likely deaths outside hospital.

Plus Egypt only admit to 3 cases I think. The journalist who queried this on the basis of research saying it should be in the thousands has been deported.

A bit of a farce really.

Si Cooper
197 Posted 26/03/2020 at 13:51:51
Tony Abraham's (133) – ‘The criminal mind is brighter than most'. Has that been fact-checked, Tony?
“Necessity is the mother of invention” comes into it and not being constrained by the standard mores can give you options that the ‘average Joe' just wouldn't choose.

Many psychopaths can appear insightful or even visionary just because of their outrageous self-belief, but they're normally shown to actually be limited when practical solutions for complex problems are required.

Eric (180) – the significant word may be ‘if'. So far I've seen nothing to prove why the rest of China or even Wuhan itself couldn't suffer more outbreaks. I don't think anything concrete has been announced on lasting immunity post infection either. It seems a bit early to call anywhere clear of threat.

Tony Abrahams
198 Posted 26/03/2020 at 14:31:51
Just my own opinion, Si, especially considering not all criminals are psychopaths imo. (I'd say very few would be.) They seem to be doing a better job than the Government in Rio, and the twice-weekly lottery draw definitely comes from the streets.

I wouldn't describe anything a psycho does as inventive Si, unless we are talking about the “three amigos” Jay mentions, for obvious reasons mate!

Stan Schofield
199 Posted 26/03/2020 at 14:44:03
Regarding this business of mortality rate (MR), it's clear that assessing it during an epidemic is fraught with difficulty. Past epidemics have shown this, with final assessed MR after the epidemic being a lot different from the values bandied about during the epidemic.

I've read a recent (17th March) report from CEBM Research at Oxford University, which discusses this problem in some detail, and includes a discussion of the deaths in Italy. It cites a report from Prof Walter Ricciardi, Scientific Adviser to Italy's Minister of Health, on these deaths.

Prof Ricciardi's report comments that only 12% of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus. The other 88% are caused by other underlying health problems (pre-morbidites), where the person has died WITH coronavirus but not necessarily FROM it.

Such factors can reduce the assessed MR very significantly, in this case reducing it even further in addition to other factors, such as mentioned in posts above. But it is only at the end of an epidemic that a properly full assessment can be performed.

Mark Guglielmo
200 Posted 26/03/2020 at 15:02:56
Chris @162 - I will only trade toilet paper for gold bars. Do you have any?

Mike G @178 - first, hope your family is safe and I trust that they are. Second, I don't think that's fair to say at all. Yes, anyone volunteering should be applauded. But there are MILLIONS of front-line healthcare workers in the U.S., risking the lives of themselves and their families, with a severe lack of PPE. Retired healthcare workers have come back into the fold. Brave employees of senior centers continue to do their job just to keep our elderly safe. 40,000 people volunteered in New York City alone in the last 24 hours. Not to mention the everyday Americans who have been signing up for services like personal grocery shopping & delivery to help their communities. There are countless stories of the selflessness of Americans.

In general as far as how things are being reported, everyone seems to point to Germany, and clearly they're doing something right to a degree; they actually just updated their 'recovered' to ~5,600. But keeping in mind the length of time between testing positive to potentially dying can take as long as 14 days. There is simply no measuring stick yet because there isn't enough data. 25,000+ of Germany's cases have come in the past 7 days. 33,000+ in the past 10 days.

It's early days. From purely an analytical perspective, I only share this so that people continue to take things seriously and not be fooled until there's a much larger data set to go by.

Derek Knox
201 Posted 26/03/2020 at 15:13:51
Bill @ 195, good point there regarding the salaries of the playing staff in these current times, when all said and done, although they have contracts, they are technically not fulfilling them by not playing.

While I appreciate that it is not of their doing, you would think that under the circumstances they would show some sort of concern, and act accordingly. It is of course possible that some have done the decent thing, but I would have thought that it would have been made public if they had done so.

Alan J Thompson
202 Posted 26/03/2020 at 15:24:38
Mark(#200); Gold bars? Just the old Mersey Goldfish variety, why else would you trade for bog rolls?

I hear questions are now being asked as to how Prince Charles and his wife were tested for COVID-19 when there are no test kits available for NHS staff. Has it ever been otherwise?

Mark Guglielmo
203 Posted 26/03/2020 at 15:53:56
Alan, don't feel bad. The very important Kris Jenner (Kim Kardashian's mother) was able to get tested because she had the sniffles.
Michael Barrett
204 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:15:10
All football in England below National League level to end... breaking on Sky and BBC
Chris Williams
205 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:22:43

I've just used the last buying an antibacterial handwash and a snide antibacterial spray. Dodgy looking geezer round the back of Aldi. Said he'd come back with my change.

Seriously this place is a bog roll, anti bac free zone. Still.

Jay Wood

206 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:26:13
Just reading that myself, Michael.


Precedent set for what might follow for all leagues above the National League, right up to the Premier League.

Note also no exception is being given to unbeaten teams like Jersey Bulls. Won all 27 of their matches in their league, 20 points clear at the top.

Tough titty! All records expunged. No trophies rewarded. No relegation or promotion.

South Shields, leading their league by 13-points, already speaking of appealing and legal action.

This could get interesting.

Tony Abrahams
207 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:31:08
I heard that last night Michael, and it looks like loads of these clubs might even go to the wall. I've been reading about Game Zero on the Sky website (Atalanta v Valencia) and hope that allowing Liverpool to host Athletico Madrid doesn't come back and hit this city really hard in a similar way?

I know not many scousers go to Anfield, but the Spaniards were all over our city for a couple of days, and after reading about Game Zero, I would genuinely like to ask our government who these experts are that they are spiffing us about?

Tony Sullivan
208 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:37:25
Mark (85) and numerous others of a certain age.

Really sad news about Cy Tucker, saw him with the Friars regularly at the Mardi Gras, one of my favourite groups at a time when the 'Merseybeat' dominated.

RIP, Cy Tucker.

Brent Stephens
209 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:37:51
"However, the National League, National League North and South, WSL and Women's Championship will continue towards a conclusion "as quickly as possible"."

Why that exception? An open door for the EPL?!

"National League 'may be played to a finish later in summer'".

"Our primary concern will always be for the safety and welfare of clubs, players, staff, officials, volunteers and supporters during this unprecedented time.

"The decision applies to steps three to seven in men's non-league football, while all "grassroots" divisions below these tiers have also finished. It has still yet to be decided whether these seasons are to be voided".

"Some men's teams, such as Jersey Bulls and Vauxhall Motors, had already secured promotion to step five of the non-league pyramid, but their promotions will now be cancelled"!!!

Seems to be full of contradictions.

Brent Stephens
210 Posted 26/03/2020 at 16:41:36
""Our primary concern will always be for the safety and welfare of clubs, players, staff, officials, volunteers and supporters during this unprecedented time".

That doesn't seem to be their primary concern.

Mark Guglielmo
211 Posted 26/03/2020 at 17:07:19
Chris @205 - you just reminded me of my something positive. I have recently learned what "bog roll" was. hahaha
Chris Williams
212 Posted 26/03/2020 at 17:35:26

Remind me what they look like!

Derek Knox
213 Posted 26/03/2020 at 17:44:40
Tony @ 208, I live in Chester now but for many years before that lived in Liverpool, a few weeks ago a gang of lads from my local in Chester, went to Liverpool on a Sunday for a day out, something different and the Craic.

During our visit we went to the Big House (The Vines) I'm pretty sure Cy Tucker was on as an act that day, there were quite a few in there, before we moved on to the Beehive, then the Blarney Stone.

Sad really, he was a bit of a legend on Merseyside, and well known, as was Carl Terry and the Cruisers, who I also used to see quite often at various locations.

Michael Barrett
214 Posted 26/03/2020 at 17:59:15
They're just determined to give the shite that fucking title... they must pray and hope this virus peters out.

My nephew plays for Tranmere and he has been running every morning just to keep himself in some kind of shape on the off-chance they get the nod to start pre-season training.

Jamie Crowley
215 Posted 26/03/2020 at 18:37:33
I'm not sure why there's all this angst.

America will be up and running by Easter. Trump told me so!

Tony Abrahams
216 Posted 26/03/2020 at 19:33:37
Jamie if you want to read about Trump, just go to Si Cooper@197 and read the middle paragraph mate!
Brent Stephens
217 Posted 26/03/2020 at 19:35:06
Jamie is joking.
Tony Abrahams
218 Posted 26/03/2020 at 19:41:47
Jamie knows that I know he's joking, Brent, but Si's description of a psychopath is exactly how I'd describe Mr Donald Trump!

Same with Bozo Boris, he looks like an apprentice who has been sent to the wrong job, and it's so very fucking frightening, having this man in charge whilst this country needs proper leadership right now.

Brent Stephens
219 Posted 26/03/2020 at 19:42:28
Fair does, Tony!
Tony Abrahams
220 Posted 26/03/2020 at 19:49:53
Looking at South Korea on the telly now, they put the whole of the western world to shame. They already had test kits whilst Trump was calling it a flu and Boris was just being himself, walking round shaking everyone's hand. If only Andy Shack (remember shake-hands🤣in Boys from the Blackstuff!) could have got hold of the silly bugger!
Derek Knox
221 Posted 26/03/2020 at 20:03:41
Jamie C, @215, did his lips move when he said it?

If yes, a sure sign it was another lie, or should I say as with most politicians, they do not lie, but are extremely economical with the truth. :-)

Sean Kelly
222 Posted 26/03/2020 at 20:27:21
Tony Abrahams “be careful what you wish / vote for” is never more apt. Voters on both sides of the pond couldn't wait to get them two fuckwits into power. But then again we in the Emerald Isle voted for a change two months ago and we can't get the defeated gobshites out. Crazy fecking world!
John Keating
223 Posted 26/03/2020 at 21:04:08
It will be interesting to see what we and the RS do, if anything for our local non-league teams whose season has just been expunged.

I see the poorly paid Barca squad have refused to take a pay cut during this time. They were all out supporting the Catalan issue, but that didn't cost them any money did it?

It would be nice to see our lot do something as a group, either for the Club or local NHS or both!

Extraordinary times needs extraordinary measures and I'm sure a few quid from our squad wouldn't be missed

Tony Everan
224 Posted 26/03/2020 at 21:04:13
No bog roll here either. Using the shower hose & head as a bidet, followed by a warm blast from the wife's Clairol 5000.

Andrex watch out, I could easily get used to it.

Billy Roberts
225 Posted 26/03/2020 at 21:13:50
At the moment it's a bit like trying to decide who's the best-looking leper on the leper colony.

I always thought BJ, let's call him, was a fuckin buffoon, and how that imbecile Trump got the Presidency especially after he ridiculed a disabled person on camera, bragged about the women he could and did have, and revelled in his profits from America's mortgage meltdown.

At the moment, Trump I have to say is making BJ look like fuckin Gandhi.

Billy Roberts
227 Posted 26/03/2020 at 21:30:43
Tony @224, too much information!!

John @223 Well said. Extraordinary times need extraordinary measures or... responses.

Imagine this, both captains of Everton and Liverpool meeting up (don't know where, maybe Asda cafe) and saying like big fuckin boys come on let's make a statement, let's take a lead, don't wait for them tools at the PFA to give you direction, it won't come.

Darren Hind
228 Posted 26/03/2020 at 21:53:51
Frank Zappa and the Mamas were at the best place around, when some stupid twat with a flare gun burnt the place to the ground.

Trump rocks!

Chris Williams
229 Posted 26/03/2020 at 22:33:54
Gallup poll today in USA: 60% of Americans think Trump is doing a bang up job in this crisis.

Michael Barrett
230 Posted 26/03/2020 at 22:40:22

I met the cast of Boys from the Blackstuff when they were filming in the Green Man on Vauxhall Road many moons ago... Yozza was my favourite. I was doing my bricklaying apprenticeship at the time so the scene about him saying to some Irish builder "I can do that" hahaha never forgot that. I always thought Bernhard Hill was a scouser for years till I heard him talk.

Mike Gaynes
231 Posted 26/03/2020 at 23:20:33
Sudden thought... did anybody ever figure out who the Everton player was who reported coronavirus symptoms two weeks ago? And what happened?

Seems like a loooooong time ago. But I never heard anything more about it.

Bob Parrington
232 Posted 27/03/2020 at 01:10:17
Getting back to the Good News requests, how about this?

Good in particular for the Climate Change Activists.

"Taking all the measures in to account, within about 3 months we've probably removed as much carbon emission from the world as we hoped to do in 50 years!!!"

No conspiracy theories on this, please.

Eric Myles
233 Posted 27/03/2020 at 02:35:57
Tony #224, welcome to the world of hundreds of millions of Asians, Arabs, Africans and Indians.
Eric Myles
234 Posted 27/03/2020 at 02:40:48
Si #197, fully agree. And a big risk is that if travel is once again allowed into Wuhan then the virus will be introduced again. That's what happened in Viet Nam when they had it under control.

And anyone leaving Wuhan is exposing themselves to the risks of infection from other places they travel to.

Mark Guglielmo
235 Posted 27/03/2020 at 02:52:18
Chris @229 that's quite misleading. His base thinks he's doing a bang-up job. The intelligent coasts, where 1/3 of the population are, know better.

The midwest & southeast (his base) aren't taking it seriously at all though, so... nature will take its course as they say.

Eric Myles
236 Posted 27/03/2020 at 03:00:19
Tony #224, the Japanese invented a wonderful toilet seat that does all you describe, and can be heated in the winter also:


Alan J Thompson
237 Posted 27/03/2020 at 05:23:51
Mike (#231);

On another thread, it was said that it was not a player but a member of the ground staff, so make of that what you will.

Bob Parrington
238 Posted 27/03/2020 at 07:04:00
Subject: Scouse Vasectomy

Scouse vasectomy

After having their 11th child, a Liverpool couple decided that was
enough, as the social wouldn't buy them a bigger bed and they weren't
strong enough to nick one.

The husband went to his doctor and told him that he and his wife didn't
want to have any more children.

The doctor told him there was a procedure called a vasectomy that would
fix the problem but it was expensive.

A less costly alternative was to go home, get a firework, light it, put
it in a beer can, then hold the can up to his ear and count to 10.

The Scouser said to the doctor, 'I may not be the smartest guy in the
world, but I don't see how putting a firework in a beer can next to my
ear is going to help me.'

'Trust me, it will do the job', said the doctor.

So the man went home, lit a banger and put it in a beer can. He held the
can up to his ear and began to count: '1, 2, 3, 4, 5,' at which point he
paused, placed the beer can between his legs so he could continue, counting on his other hand.

This procedure also works in Newcastle, Bolton, parts of Stoke on Trent, Derby, Alfreton and anywhere in Scotland.

Duncan McDine
239 Posted 27/03/2020 at 07:58:50
Bob, that reminded me of a joke my Dad told me years ago:-

Before you read the joke, it's very important to know that the accent of the couple is a “politically incorrect version of an African American residing in the southern states of USA during the 1950's”... if you've seen ‘The Help' then you've understood. Here goes:-

Wife: “Why you dressed up all fancy in that there suit and hat?”

Husband: “Well, the doctor said I was impotent, so I thought I better look impotent.”

Paul Tran
240 Posted 27/03/2020 at 08:18:11
If you elect a proven compulsive liar who is desperate to please everybody, who has a track record in talking 'funny' cliched nonsense instead of rigourous policy, who surrounds himself with yes-people with a similar inability to forge rigorous policy, you get what we have.

Obvious to those of us who check these things, but there you go.

Anyway, Skeleton walks into a bar. Says to the barman 'Have you got a pint of bitter and a mop?'

Wash your hands
Stay at home
Focus on those you love and the things you can control
And stay safe

Chris Williams
241 Posted 27/03/2020 at 08:23:11

Yes, the Darwin Effect. But it is never as simple as that...

Chris Williams
242 Posted 27/03/2020 at 08:36:03

Yesterday's figure here was 115, so a massive increase from the previous 41.

Nobody official has said it's an adjusted figure that I've seen as yet, and particularly the tabloid shite mongers.

The Telegraph of all papers acknowledges the figure for the previous day were falsely low, but this is near the end of the article about the information about up to a third of sufferers may not show symptoms and that a large proportion of NHS workers may also be asymptotic and be inadvertently spreadeing it.

I didn't see any source quoted for either of these facts.

Alan McGuffog
243 Posted 27/03/2020 at 08:49:35
Tony, 224. When all this is over, treat yourself to a holiday in Turkey. All the toilets have a little nozzle that supplies a jet of water that sluices off the ring piece.

Probably best to strip naked before as there can be a degree of splashage until you become expert.

Happy hosing!

Chris Williams
244 Posted 27/03/2020 at 08:51:33
I should say named sources. It says public health officials.

Aa bit like ‘club sources' in a transfer rumour.

Ray Roche
245 Posted 27/03/2020 at 09:01:22
Alan @243,

Alan, I was supposed to be going to Turkey on May 1st for a golfing holiday with some pals.☹️ Ain't gonna happen.

Chris Williams
246 Posted 27/03/2020 at 09:17:59
On a lighter note, I see that Dylan has release his first original song in years.

It's called Murder Most Foul, about the JFK assassination, and lasts 17 minutes.

It's on YouTube:

Joe McMahon
247 Posted 27/03/2020 at 09:31:42
Ray @245, if it's any consolation I was supposed to be in Vietnam at the moment, when it was booked Coronavirus wasn't even known in China.
Patrick McFarlane
248 Posted 27/03/2020 at 09:43:06

Chris #244,

I believe that the latest figures were for a 24-hour period up until 5 pm and the previous day's figures were for a 6- or 8-hour tally.

Si Cooper
249 Posted 27/03/2020 at 10:10:15
Tony (198),

Psychopathy doesn't just apply to the homicidal. A certain percentage are reckoned to go through life not having the capacity for empathy and compassion that ‘afflicts' the majority. Gives them a competitive advantage in certain arenas.

We need to be aware of how things are achieved – not just that they have been achieved and – I think that sometimes gets glossed over (see incumbent POTUS et al for object lesson).

Modern business practices seem to actually select for psychopathy because these people are often gifted in appearing to know what they are doing even when they are clueless; style over substance in all its apparent glory. Fully appreciating the consequences of your choices / actions and avoiding doing harm is the inventiveness I'd like to see getting more credit.

I think, as a society, we do have a tendency to put a spin on violent criminals (Peaky Blinders, The Sopranos, etc) or at least we tend to forget that, whilst they may occasionally do us all a favour and take out a few ‘wrong-uns', by-and-large their success will have, at its foundations, the exploitation and misery of others. Portrayed as 'devil may care' when the reality is 'devil don't care'.

Chris Williams
250 Posted 27/03/2020 at 10:21:39
Si, Tony,

There have been several surveys over the years that indicate that as many as 60% of CEOs display psychopathic traits. So as you've said people are actually employed for those very ‘virtues'.

One very good example was Fred the Shred at RBS. It was a nickname very much earned, and we all know how that turned out.


Eric Paul
251 Posted 27/03/2020 at 10:27:22
Power is measured by the £ or the fist
Derek Knox
253 Posted 27/03/2020 at 11:48:26
Ray @245, No way, No Golf (or hole in one) and No Hose for you my boy! :-)
Dave Abrahams
254 Posted 27/03/2020 at 11:57:32
Si (249), many parts of your post would seem to describe Dominic Cummins, Johnson's puppet master.
Tony Sullivan
255 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:10:27
Derek (213),

Yes, really sad; we had some great but less famous groups around that time, the Big Three, Swinging Bluejeans, Merseybeats etc.

I remember one night at the Mardi, Freddie Starr and the Delmonts brought the place to a standstill, long before he hit the big-time.

Along with all this, we had a great side, 1963 the Championship, 1966 the FA Cup, a World Cup win and the Golden Vision gracing Goodison Park.

Happy days, great memories.

Chris Williams
256 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:18:57

Re Cummings, getting Brexit done is widely believed among experts to be damaging to the economy. I had thought that what's going on now might at the very least defer Brexit.

A psychopath * might see an opportunity to push ahead with full no deal Brexit and blame any fallout on Corvid-19.

*or politician

Ray Roche
257 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:32:31
Joe @247,

That's a real bummer Joe, all the excitement and anticipation for nothing. But we're still here, mate, it's what matters.

Derek, Correctomundo, like everything else, holidays, golf etc, pale into insignificance right now.

John Keating
258 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:40:23
Some, by far a small minority, of Premier League players seem to be doing their bit like the millions of "ordinary" people are doing just now.

I don't expect the players to be volunteering at the Royal or Alder Hay but I would expect them to make significant contributions to, certainly, local charities and self-help groups.

Although I think everything helpful should be appreciated it disappoints me when players such as Andros Townsend ask "people" to support the #FootballUnited campaign. No, Andros, you should be only asking your well-paid professional colleagues to contribute.

Similarly, Wan-Bissaka and Bellerin are asking, here's that word again, "people" to donate 𧴜,000 to the National Emergency Trust. Well, Aaron and Hector, you may be better thought of if you just told the Trust that, rather than ask "people" to contribute, you will both give one weeks wages to them and they'd've got all their money straight away.

When so many ordinary people are doing so much for their local communities, people who sometimes need help themselves, it's a shame our heroes can't step up a bit more.

Dave Evans
259 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:46:12
Jeez. The self-validating convoluted mingling of politics, science, psychology and now Brexit.

I will be glad when football starts again so I can read about how crap are players are.

Breaking data news – South Korean opposition supporters think Jae-In Moons government is doing a crap job. Funny old world eh?

Dave Abrahams
260 Posted 27/03/2020 at 12:58:38
Chris (256),

It amazes me that this man, who seems so important to Johnson, has never, to my knowledge, ever been seen talking or giving an interview on television. You can usually get an impression of most people if you see them in person, and see how they react verbally to what is in the news. He certainly motivates our Prime Minister to make important decisions. I would like to see him once or twice to see what makes him so special to Johnson.

Patrick McFarlane
261 Posted 27/03/2020 at 13:00:25
Dave #259, Surely there is good reason for many of us espousing our thoughts and views on a variety of topics in these trying times?

I'm 100% certain that, if the editors saw fit, they would delete most of the posts from recent weeks, but they are undoubtedly making allowances for these peculiar circumstances; perhaps you could do the same?

Chris Williams
262 Posted 27/03/2020 at 13:35:57
Dave (260),

Nobody voted for him in any case. He'll overstep the mark at some point I'd guess. I'm sure they keep him under wraps for very good reasons.

Just to broaden it, and to get back to football, which players have you ever seen, who by their behaviour on and off the pitch, in interviews, punditry, books, have you reckoned might have those traits?

My vote would be Roy Keane.

Any Everton players? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Bernie the Bolt was just a nutter.

Derek Knox
263 Posted 27/03/2020 at 13:43:04
Tony @224, as long as you don't follow your new toilet regime with a spray of your wife's hair lacquer, could make getting around a bit of a challenge, you should be alright! :-)
Chris Williams
264 Posted 27/03/2020 at 13:51:39
Michael or Lyndon @246

Thanks for putting up the Dylan link.

Did I say lighten things up? That is a very sombre bleak song, with some lyrics challenging the likes of Masters of War in the suppressed anger.

I like it, I must say. Dylan can still turn on the power.

Tony Abrahams
265 Posted 27/03/2020 at 13:58:43
I'd say devil does care, Si, unless those people rise too far, then life changes, and self-preservation becomes the number one goal?

I'm going to watch that link later, Chris, I'm saving it for bed-time!

Jay Wood

266 Posted 27/03/2020 at 14:18:23
Lots of musical and cultural references in that Dylan epic, Chris, including a nod to The Beatles and Ferry Across the Mersey.


Chris Williams
267 Posted 27/03/2020 at 14:57:24

Yes it's quite a song. All about what happened post the assassination. Woodstock etc. Sort of lamenting what's happened to USA.

He said he wrote it a while ago. I wonder why he released it now. He'll never tell you of course, and he enjoys keeping people guessing.

I've listened a couple of times now, and it's pretty good.

Tony, you'll be okay, no electric guitar. No acoustic either though.

Tony Abrahams
268 Posted 27/03/2020 at 15:14:43
Ssshh, Chris, it's like someone telling you about a film; don't spoil it, mate!
Brian Wilkinson
269 Posted 27/03/2020 at 15:26:34
Brent@209, my way of thinking is they have picked the leagues where a team has won all 27 of their games and another had already gained promotion.

I personally think they are getting in early, in case they have to null and void the remainder of the season, they have a ready made example of two teams who have also been denied by the virus.

Also to gauge the reaction of people, if they say it is unfair with those teams denied in the none league, it builds up support to our neighbours cause.

Like I say pure guess work, but by hitting those none league teams first, it softens the blow, if or when they have to make a decision on the remainder of the season, and should it be written off.

All this is unimportant, the sport everything connected with making money by the big leagues.

This is worrying times. Far far worse is happening than worrying about restarting the leagues, and sports.

Tony Abrahams
270 Posted 27/03/2020 at 15:37:15
I couldn't wait, thanks for that, Chris, and – unless someone can't stand Dylan – I'm sure there is a little piece of the master's poetry for everyone.
Dave Abrahams
271 Posted 27/03/2020 at 16:02:42
Chris (262),

I might be in the minority but I didn't mind Roy Keane. He did outrageous things and said things that would have been better left alone, but that was his personality; he couldn't help himself and was more open and honest than quite a few you see regularly playing and in punditry.

I can't think of any Everton players really, although Mirallas got on my nerves with his ego and selfishness.

The player who comes nearest to that behaviour has to be Saurez, and not because he played for them, he was an animal.

I hope you and yours are okay, Chris.

Chris Williams
272 Posted 27/03/2020 at 16:11:38
Thanks Dave,

So far so good! You all fine?

I agree about Suarez too.

I was thinking about Keane crippling Haaland and rejoicing in it, and some of the tosh he came out with about McCarthy when he was with Ireland

He always goes too far.

He was a great player, I agree, but something a bit off with him.

Chris Williams
273 Posted 27/03/2020 at 16:13:01
Sorry Tony,

I was telling Jay and I didn't think you'd notice!

Dave Abrahams
274 Posted 27/03/2020 at 16:26:38
Chris (272), yes we are all okay, it's just a unique situation for everyone and a very worrying one until it is all over, hopefully the final death total is a lot less than many forecast.

Back to Roy Keane, I think him and Haaland had a bit of feud going on and with Mick McCarthy I always thought that Keane resented an Englishman being in charge of his country's team, but was just my take on it.

Suarez, if you bite once it's a bit unusual, if you do it four times, well, his dad should have had a license for him and a permit for him to shit in the street!!

Ray Roche
275 Posted 27/03/2020 at 16:44:54
Chris, Dave, talking about Keane, a couple of seasons ago, I saw him leaving his car in the Park End car park. I had just finished his biography so I went up to him and told him how much I'd enjoyed it. Truthfully.

I wasn't creeping or anything. You would struggle to meet a nicer, more pleasant guy. We chatted football for a few minutes about the game, I forget who we were playing, he was doing the punditry. Then we shook hands and we parted, but not before he'd thanked me for the comments about his book.

A really pleasant surprise from the players or ex-players who scurry past, too busy to acknowledge anyone.

Brent Stephens
278 Posted 27/03/2020 at 17:16:54
Brian #269 - that makes a lot of sense.
Patrick McFarlane
280 Posted 27/03/2020 at 18:42:43
The link below makes the will they / won't they resume this season into some perspective:

A letter to the UK from Italy: this is what we know about your future

Rob Halligan
281 Posted 27/03/2020 at 20:56:18
Have just read that piece in The Guardian, John, and it's fairly safe to say that this season is doomed, kaput, finito, never going to end!
Derek Knox
282 Posted 27/03/2020 at 21:21:53
Rob @281, I don't know if you've read the other thread on Niasse, I wholeheartedly recommend the Link provided by Jay Wood @61.

I immediately thought of you when I first watched it, thinking this right up Rob's Street, just watch it in segments, as watching the whole thing could induce a laugh initiated hernia.

Brian Murray
283 Posted 27/03/2020 at 21:23:43
Try telling that to the likes of Aldridge and Dalglish who seem to think health comes totally second to their big day in the sun. No wonder the rest of the UK and Europe can't stand them. Never mind Evertonians!!
Rob Halligan
284 Posted 27/03/2020 at 21:46:29
Got that the other day, Derek, via WhatsApp. It's absolutely brilliant. No doubt the RS will be going apeshit. Hahahaha.
Mike Doyle
285 Posted 27/03/2020 at 21:48:39
Ray 275,

I've never met Keane personally- but I know a few who have. All have commented what a pleasant and polite guy he is.

... and we could certainly use a character like him in our midfield at present.

Derek Knox
287 Posted 28/03/2020 at 02:33:15
Rob @284, did you see the other one doing the rounds on What'sApp with the re-usable Toilet Roll, which consisted of a RS Scarf?
Eric Myles
288 Posted 28/03/2020 at 04:34:31
Joe @#247, me too, I should have been at the inaugural Grand Prix in Ha Noi.
Bob Parrington
289 Posted 28/03/2020 at 04:58:58
Joe @247,

That's a real bummer. Hopefully it's a delay and not a complete write-off. I empathise with you. I had a fall 2 weeks ago and injured my right shoulder. Looks like a couple of months away from the game.

Pretty well most of us will be missing something. It's our 50th wedding anniversary 18th April and we were looking forward to a get together with friends and kids, grandkids etc incl. from interstate and OS. But looks like no chance now. As the French say, c'est la vie! This virusy thing is bigger than Ben Hur, eh?

Derek Knox
290 Posted 28/03/2020 at 06:54:53
Further to my post @287, there is now a deluxe version of the aforementioned re-usable toilet roll, which has been released.

It actually plays a really irritable song and has the letters YNWA inscribed on it which of course stands for, "You'll Never Wipe Alone"! :-)

Darren Hind
291 Posted 28/03/2020 at 07:11:09
Rob as you say that RS clip has been doing the rounds in this city for 4-5 days now. Had great fun sending it to every kopite I know. I have seen that one about 6-7 times now but I still pissed myself when I opened Jay's link. Gets me every time, I don't think I will ever tire of it. I have been told it originated from another one involving Mexicans mocking Trump, but I can't find it. Anyone seen it?

I have to say some of the stuff coming up on our phones at the moment is keeping me sane. Wonderful fun.

Theres another one being recycled about two Scouse decorators. It will reduce anyone who hasn't seen it to a wreck. I'll get it up here if I can figure out how this link lark works.

Chris Williams
292 Posted 28/03/2020 at 07:34:02

Bad luck about your 50th Anniversary get together. I hope you can still celebrate it, and have your party later on.

I can empathise because it's our 50th on 26th September, and we were planning on doing something similar. Part of me thinks it will go ahead with luck, all of me hopes it will with everyone there.

Something to look forward to.

John Keating
293 Posted 28/03/2020 at 07:40:53
Jay 206,

Reference Jersey Bulls, Gary Freeman, their manager is a top top man.

As you mentioned, they had already walked their league; now it's been expunged. Is he moaning? No. He understands the bigger picture and accepts the decision.

Bob Parrington
294 Posted 28/03/2020 at 07:59:17
It's a beautiful day here in Adelaide. 29 C. I'm just preparing dinner while the Mrs is out walking our dog (a Kelpie needs heaps of exercise. That's the dog, Ha Ha!)

Decided to put on a CD (I'm oldish) Wings Greatest Hits. Just listened to "With a little bit of luck" which is very good for the current situation.

Chris, with a bit of luck you will be okay for your 50th in September. I'll record the date in Calendar and see how you're going'. Best wishes.

Chris Williams
295 Posted 28/03/2020 at 08:01:05
That's kind Bob, many thanks. Keep safe
Chris Williams
296 Posted 28/03/2020 at 08:21:47
For those who are interested, the latest report by Imperial College on Covid-19 is available on their website. It is Report 12.

It covers a lot of ground, and debunks some appalling tosh, particularly by the Orange Blert. It models things like, what would happen with no action, with the action being taken, with increased testing.

It also covers impact by age group, by country with different wealth profiles etc, and impact on hospital beds.

Interestingly it indicates that if the current restrictions are relaxed after three months, it is likely to result in a smaller peak some time later.

It is broadly hopeful, if that is the word, that current measures plus increased testing that seems to be happening now, will have a major impact on number of cases deaths etc. It forecasts a large reduction in both.

If you don't have the stamina to plough through 20 pages of academic language and charts,The summary at the beginning and section 4 should suffice. But each to his own.

There is also very interesting twitter feed by a professor Ferguson linked.

I'd link it here if I knew how to, using an iPad.

I read a comment years ago by an eminent statistician which said, I paraphrase, that all models are wrong but some are useful. Hopefully this is the latter.

Tony Abrahams
297 Posted 28/03/2020 at 09:54:05
That was a very nice post that Bob P, even if it wasn't directed to me, and your opening line 29 degrees, got me thinking about Radio Kaos, so I'm off to listen to Roger Waters with my sausage butty, dreaming of some good weather!
Rob Halligan
298 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:12:06
Darren, the other night, I was sat in the back garden and started singing "if you all hate the red shite clap your hands".

It's funny but the whole country seemed to join in! 😁😁😁

Alan McGuffog
299 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:36:54
Getting back to Dylan. Listened to the new song on YouTube just. Then it went onto play Desolation Row. Compare and contrast!

And then a video of "I shall be released" from Last Waltz. You never saw Robbie Robertson and Big Dunc in a room at the same time 🤔

Chris Williams
300 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:43:21

At least it stopped them singing that Godawful dirge from Oklahoma(?)

Alan I like the new song, but I think it may have been written a while ago. A really good article about it in The Guardian today.

The Last Waltz is my favourite live concert of all time, with Too Late to Stop Now, by Van M. (But don't tell Andy C)!

The Weight with The Staples is brilliant.

Robbie might have been a useful player in Canada when he was younger, but he was on the road with Ronnie Hawkins from age 16.

‘Come with me, son, and you'll get more pussy than Sinartry!

Tony Abrahams
301 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:46:58
They have got a lovely video out thanking the NHS Rob, which I'm sure will be gaining them some moral support, but I'm not sure it will be enough to soften the blow if the league is cancelled in the near future?

Football is irrelevant right now imo, but I'm not sure that will be the case for many if the league does get cancelled but only the future will show us this.

Let's see what the future brings because, although it's nice seeing footballers making a few phone calls to their fans, these very high earners have been mostly silent when it comes to sharing a little bit of their wealth and, if things don't change, then I'm sure it won't go “unnoticed” by the general public?

Tony Williams
302 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:54:50
Behind locked doors? How on earth can the Premier League talk of playing matches behind closed doors until restrictions are lifted, as we all know it is no more than two people. I am afraid it is tough to clubs but the season has to be null and void. Lives are more important than playing a football match.
Chris Williams
303 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:55:45

Latest Imperial College report says that, if the lockdown is eased after 3 months, then it could lead to another but smaller peak. If the Government takes their advice, and they did last time, that should put that one to bed.

Or maybe they'll take the risk but I'd be astonished if they do.

Then watch the contortions!

Dave Abrahams
304 Posted 28/03/2020 at 11:57:23
Bob (294), with you mentioning the family dog, there is a cracking video doing the rounds here in Liverpool. It's one with a fella standing in his back kitchen with his dog, a collie, stuck on the ceiling and the dog is shouting at the fella, “No I'm not coming down, I've been walked by everyone of this family today and I'm fuckin' knackered!”
Tony Williams
305 Posted 28/03/2020 at 20:00:45
I am sorry to reiterate what I just posted. The season must be stopped now, people have lost loved ones. If we do start doing things too early and the peak is smaller, people are still going to lose loved ones. It just isn't worth it.
Bob Parrington
306 Posted 28/03/2020 at 22:26:18
Good one, Dave. Some good news for us is that we have some rain this morning. It is quite a long time since the last rain. Good timing too, as we planted various veggie seeds yesterday.
Chris Williams
307 Posted 29/03/2020 at 17:49:22
Deputy MOH just announced that normal life unlikely to resume for 6 months. So that could be that for the Premier League.

It will continue to be under review, and there could be partial relaxation.

It bears out the latest Imperial College report, that forecast that an early relaxation of all these measures after 3 months would lead to another, smaller peak further on.

Another 2 or 3 weeks of pretty dire death figures and then they will take a view, and hope to see the peak flattening.

Ray Robinson
308 Posted 02/04/2020 at 20:12:49
I note just now that the Belgian League has been cancelled all together for this season, with the final league positions being allowed to stand and Bruges crowned as Champions.

The decision was far easier to call as Bruges were 15 points ahead of the second-placed team with one game left, the only contentious issues being deciding the second team to qualify for the Champions League. KAA Gent were a single point behind second-placed Sporting de Charleroi. And with the single relegation spot where Waasland Beveren were 2 points behind KV Ostende but with a goal difference of -10.

Time for the EPL to make a decision. I know it's far more complicated financially and less clear in terms of the final placings, but a consensus needs to be reached now.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.

About these ads