Kean bags two for Italy U21s

Tuesday, 19 November, 2019 128comments  |  Jump to last

Moise Kean scored a confidence-boosting brace for Italy U21s as they hammered Armenia U21s 6-0.

In the news this past week because of transfer tittle-tattle in his home country suggesting he might return to Serie A on loan, and then forced to respond to comments made by his estranged father, Kean did his talking on the pitch with two well-taken goals.

Already described as “perfect” over the international prior to this evening's game by Italy U21 boss Paolo Nicolato, the 19-year-old fired through the goalkeeper's legs for his first and then stabbed a loose ball high into the net for his second.

Meanwhile, as the Euro2020 qualifying programme wrapped up, Jordan Pickford played in both of England's victories, a 7-0 drubbing of Montenegro and 4-0 win in Kosovo

Gylfi Sigurdsson featured for the full 90 minutes in each of Iceland's qualifiers, the first a 0-0 draw in Turkey, while he scored once and missed a penalty as Nordic team beat Moldova 2-1. Cenk Tosun missed both of Turkey's fixtures with a groin injury.

Lucas Digne played the full game as France beat Moldova and the final quarter of an hour of the 2-0 win in Albania.

Elsewhere, Richarlison played the 90 mins for Brazil in their 3-0 victory over South Korea and Alex Iwobi was on target for Nigeria in AFCoN qualifying as they won 4-2 in Lesotho.


Reader Comments (128)

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Jamie Crowley
1 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:11:57
Kean - M'man.

Start him. Every game please, Marco.

I'm backing myself into a corner and going all "TEAM KEAN". From this point forward, I'm a cheerleader, and nothing I say in support of Moise Kean should be taken seriously ever again. Fanatical Fan of Moise (FFoM for short).

Somewhere, someone is doing a copy and paste of the above. When it's reintroduced, I will chuckle.

Is he ready? I dunno, play him up top for 4-5 games straight and let's find the hell out!

Jamie Crowley

Steve Ferns
2 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:21:00
I didn't watch the second England game, which I thought would be boringly routine, but I'm pretty sure I saw Jordan sat that one out and Pope played. I could be wrong though.
Jay Wood

3 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:31:48
All six goals to view in this Italian highlights reel.


Mark Guglielmo
4 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:51:46
Jamie @1 I got you mate

"Kean - M'man.
Start him. Every game please, Marco.

I'm backing myself into a corner and going all "TEAM KEAN". From this point forward, I'm a cheerleader, and nothing I say in support of Moise Kean should be taken seriously ever again. Fanatical Fan of Moise (FFoM for short).

Somewhere, someone is doing a copy and paste of the above. When it's reintroduced, I will chuckle.

Is he ready? I dunno, play him up top for 4-5 games straight and let's find the hell out!"

Copied. Pasted. ;-)

Mark Guglielmo
Co-chair, FFoM

p.s. Did anyone notice that Kean started at RW? At TRUE RW, meaning as the right lined-up forward in a 4-3-3 (not as a wide right midfielder with a lone striker *rolls eyes*). Though both goals as noted above were from dead center of the park; one a breakaway, the other a banged in sitter from a rebound.

So maybe just maybe it's not that Kean can't play wide right, it's that we need to move to a 4-3-3. What a unique and shocking observation (this last part was sarcasm to the 1,000,000th degree).

Rob Young
5 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:53:01
My word, how many penalties does Sigurdsson miss before someone tells him to stop taking them!
Mark Guglielmo
6 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:57:50
Rob, at last count (all comps), I believe he's now 4 for his last 9. Pretty sure I could beat that.
Anthony Murphy
7 Posted 20/11/2019 at 22:35:17
Good lad – just in time for the w'end. If he starts v Norwich, bang a few quid on him to score his first goal for the Blues. A nap.
Gary Carter
8 Posted 20/11/2019 at 22:36:13
Good, now let's try and get Pochettino!
David Pearl
9 Posted 20/11/2019 at 22:45:33
He scored his goals central. We didn't get to see what he did from his starting position.

Pochettino could maybe possibly be an option... but not yet. Probably needs to recharge a couple months.

Mark Guglielmo
10 Posted 21/11/2019 at 00:36:08
David, he scored the goals from his starting position, as a right-winger who moved into the area as part of a 4-3-3.

Also, we're not getting Pochettino, ever. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, lol.

David Pearl
11 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:09:01
Mark, I have some good news. Santa Claus is available from January 1st, caretaker till the summer. I'm not sure if Elves will be among the coaching staff... but lm pretty sure Big Dunc has been a good boy this year and will remain as part of the coaching staff.
Jer Kiernan
12 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:10:06
I think this lad will do good things for us, despite having to put up with an inept manager. If he gets a run in the side, he will find his form from last season in Serie A.

It's not like we are scoring for fun...

Jamie Crowley
13 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:22:58
David Pearl -

Just for you.


David Pearl
14 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:40:36
Oh well, Jamie,

Wonder what the Easter bunny is up to? Hope he doesn't have an American accent too. This isn't Star Trek. Universal translator turns everyone American. Awful future we have. At least it turned Picard from French to English. Sorry to show myself up as a ‘nerd'.

Alan J Thompson
15 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:44:00
David (#11);

Sorry but Elves has left the Farm.

Paul A Smith
17 Posted 21/11/2019 at 06:28:47
Mark, spot on. He was the right-sided attacker again for Italy. Let's add it's a very smaller level to the Premier League but the goals should do him good.
Si Pulford
18 Posted 21/11/2019 at 06:30:48
Scoring a couple against dreadful opposition at U21 level doesn't qualify you to start ‘4 or 5' games in the Premier League. I'm sorry but there's a reason he's not starting for us, and he does nothing to disprove that when he gets on the pitch. He's one for the future, we may start to see the potential next season.

Has anyone seen our next five games before I get rinsed?!!!!

James Hill
19 Posted 21/11/2019 at 06:34:12
We need to break the bank to get a decent manager – why not at least try for Pochettino? Show some ambition for a change.

We are going nowhere with this clown in charge.

Derek Knox
20 Posted 21/11/2019 at 07:00:25
Made up for Moise bagging a brace, hopefully will boost his confidence and also hope stubborn arse Silva will pick him.

Seems funny when we are struggling for goals, that most of our players manage to score when on International Duty, yet either struggle to score if picked, and some don't even make the bench.

Keith Gleave
21 Posted 21/11/2019 at 07:50:54
Start the lad and give him a run of games through the middle. Lets go and get Pochettino
Bob Parrington
22 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:06:27
Keith and others - agreed. Give him a run of games and don't substitute him. At 19 years old, he can last 90 minutes plus of course.

Too much mamsy pamsy management in modern-day football (soccer! er!). Give the lad a go, no reservations!

Trevor Peers
23 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:26:14
Give Kean a go until Christmas, if he scores and creates goals great, but if he draws a blank, we must buy a striker worthy of the name.
If that means swapping Kean, as reported in some rags, for Polish 24-year-old AC Milan striker Piatek or buying Morelos, 23 from Rangers, then so be it. I think either of these players would score goals.
Tony Abrahams
24 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:27:46
"Give him a run of games and don't sub him" really is an astounding statement to make imo, but I'm also sure that my own statement would also astound others.

Once opinions are made, the rest don't matter, I even read a report that 51% of people thought Boris Johnson, won the debate with Corbyn the other night, but maybe I feel this way because I find Boris, a bit like the statement that caused me to post, absolutely astounding.

Martin Berry
25 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:37:36
Kean is one for the future which is not what we need at the moment as we need goals. No doubt this lad has the ability and will score a few but he is 19 so don't expect him to be prolific! He needs time to develop, like all players who progress to greatness.

The talk of selling, sending him back to Italy, is not why we bought him. I notice for example Gnabry is knocking them in for fun in Germany and is becoming a real handful, but he did little at Arsenal. With reason time and patience, Kean could be another Mbappe but only time will tell.

Ray Roche
26 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:49:36
Martin, Gnabry couldn't get a game at West Brom under Pulis because, according to Pulis, he wasn't good enough.

So anyone writing Kean off already, well, maybe you should cut him some slack.

Same goes for Calvert-Lewin. Cut all the “Championship at best “ crap.

James O'Connell
27 Posted 21/11/2019 at 08:58:52
I am sure Pochettino will bring both Moura and Eriksen when he joins us. Together with Timmy Cahill joining the coaching team.
Tony Abrahams
28 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:08:05
That's my point exactly Ray. I wouldn't cut Silva any slack for playing Schneiderlin, I wouldn't cut him any for continuously pairing Mina with Keane, but we are talking about a young kid in a foreign land, so if Silva doesn't think he's ready I'd be inclined to agree.

I hope Kean starts playing, and only gets subbed for a standing ovation, because that will only mean one thing to me, but dammed if you do, is the phrase that's ringing round in my head regards the kid and Silva right now.

Ray Roche
29 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:17:38
Agreed Tony, Kean needs game time when he's ready and not before. However, I would probably give him a start against Norwich while his confidence is up but play him as a forward and not a right sided midfielder.
Bob Parrington
30 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:25:17
On the trail of the Football vs Soccer comment, having lived in Oz for 33 years, I still can't come to terms with the use of "soccer". Rugby (both genres) is mostly using the hand, as is Aussie Rules (Great Game though!) and "Grid Iron" too. But these imposters are still called football (nee Footee) while proper football is relegated to "Soccer".

At 71 years old. I look at the world and say "WTF?"

Alan McGuffog
31 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:43:47
So we have a wonderful film celebrating a glorious period in our past. We accumulate players "for the future". Not to mention the stadium.
Any chance of something happening in the present? Other than never-ending mediocrity that is.
Sam Hoare
32 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:48:05
Norwich would seem the perfect game to start him but both Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison have done better than him up top this season so far and we need points.

I would love to see Kean and Calvert-Lewin start together. I think they could be a well suited combo as Calvert-Lewin wins a lot of headers and Kean can run in behind. If Kean gets his first goal, it could really help settle him and give him the confidence to go and get a few more. But he's really not a target man and needs the ball played to feet or preferably into space.

Bob Parrington
33 Posted 21/11/2019 at 10:04:01
What has Pochentino actually achieved with Spurs, really? Why should we take him instead of Silva? Eriksen - surely he's close to past his time?

Whatever happened to the "imaginative" of putting a team together, in which the players' skills work together to produce a real team (squad) together with the coach? Players who understand the need to 'rotate' for the good of the team and aren't so up themselves that they react visually in a negative way when they are subbed?

Shit, it cannot be that difficult. Just look across the park!

Sorry if I appear to be overly exasperated on this subject!

Keith Gleave
34 Posted 21/11/2019 at 10:23:16
Bob, I would say Poch and Spurs have achieved far more than ourselves over the past five years. They may be on a level with us having no silverware but qualifying for the Champions League year on year and reaching the final last surely rates as an achievement.
Paul A Smith
35 Posted 21/11/2019 at 10:23:45
Si, I don't think you can be rinsed mate. Only a lie could argue with your Kean points because not one Evertonian has seen anything to justify a run of games.
Trevor Peers
36 Posted 21/11/2019 at 11:04:04
Pochettino is a good organiser and motivator, as all the best managers are. His five years at Spurs have proved his credentials, he also did a good job at Southampton.

Silva blurrs the lines when it comes to game management, players tend to get sucked out of position, the team can then look shapeless. Silva also lacks motivational skills especially when the team goes a goal down, proof he can't inspire the players to respond to adversity.

James Stewart
37 Posted 21/11/2019 at 11:18:20
Why not play Richarlison dcl and kean up top in a true 433?

No chance of that under Silva sadly. I fear that Kean will just move on in January to a team that will play him.

Kevin Prytherch
38 Posted 21/11/2019 at 11:24:43
James - I agree, especially at home against weaker sides. We would have a direct, pacey forward line who would no doubt cut inside and create havoc. Much the same way as Liverpool have their front 3 and City have theirs.

Would mean Walcott, Iwobi and Sigurdsson dropped, however we should then mix and match depending on the opposition.

Fran Mitchell
39 Posted 21/11/2019 at 11:29:18
Bob, Spurs were at our level when Poch took over. They have since qualified for the champions league 4 times, got to a final, and played wonderful football to boot.

All this done at a net spend of 85 million. Silva has already spent more. Koeman spent more. Even allardyce had 50% of his net spend in just 6 months.

What Poch achieved was remarkable, and just the fact that he didn't win the league in that time (against an imperious Manchester City). Or just cause he didn't win a FA Cup (Martinez won a FA cup - doesn't mean much really) doesn't mean he didn't achieve anything.

Poch will get the job at Bayern or Man Utd. We don't have a chance - but if it was possible, he's 10x the manager Silva is.

Tony Abrahams
40 Posted 21/11/2019 at 11:59:34
Read what Kean, has got to say on the echo website, he's only looking to train and play for Everton, and it's only others who are thinking about the transfer window.

He says it's a different league in England, but his immediate goals are to adapt and get into Everton's team, So Good luck Moise mate!

Kevin Prytherch
41 Posted 21/11/2019 at 12:05:58
Fran 39
Although I don't doubt the Poch is a good manager. I wonder how much better Silva would be doing if he'd walked into a squad with Kane and Erikson already there.

Time will tell now that Mourinho is there. Personally I think that Mourinho is poor in the transfer market and works best when he walks into a good squad of players. The sides he inherited at Chelsea, Inter Milan and Real Madrid were already made for him and he got the best out of the players. If he does that now at Spurs you will have to question whether Poch is just a very good manager, or whether he is up there with the best.

Christy Ring
42 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:03:14
Delighted to see Keane scoring, a big boost to his confidence, I don't mind Kean been left on the bench, but bring him on beside DCL, not as a winger.
I think Poch is a class act, Spurs are a top 4 side, and he has spent very little. I believe Levy is the reason he has enough, he gave him no money to spend, in a couple of windows, which would have Spurs challenging City, Levy's wage structure is supposed to be well behind top teams, to attract top players, and there's in house problems, with a couple of players, rumour has it. Unfortunately I don't think Everton are in his thoughts.
Jay Wood

43 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:05:37
Bob @ 33 and Kevin @ 41.

To put into context your questioning of Pochettino achievements at Spurs, consider this:

He was appointed in May 2014 after that season ended. Spurs had finished 6th, Everton 5th (Martinez's 1st season), Arsenal 4th. We were their betters.

In all season's since then the 3 clubs finishing positions reads as follows:

Spurs Arsenal Everton
5 3 11 (Martinez, 2014-15)
3 2 11 (Martinez, 2015-16)
2 5 7 (Koeman, 2016-17)
3 6 8 (Dog's Dinner, 2017-18)
4 5 8 (Silva, 2018-19)

In his 5 full seasons at Spurs his AWAY WINS ONLY record reads (from earliest to last season) 9, 9, 9, 10, 11. I won't embarrass Everton by putting up our own away record in the same time frame.

Given his net spend in his 5 years against the mega-bucks of City, Chelsea and United and the quality at the top end of the league, I cannot see how anyone can fail to be impressed by his achievements, playing the free-flowing, high-scoring football his teams display.

This form contributed to ending Arsenal's record breaking 19 consecutive seasons of qualifying for the CL. He restored supporters' pride in their team who were no longer mocked by Arsenal fans on 'St Totteringham Day' - the day when Arsenal fans celebrated the fact that Tottenham could no longer catch Arsenal in the League.

His biggest outlay on a player was €40 million (note euros, not pounds) on Sanchez from Ajax. Other very good signings include Son, Moura, Alderweireld, Dele Alli, Dier, Trippier, Sissoko, Aurier, as well as promoting a lot of in-house talent from the Spurs academy.

Did Spurs land any silverware on his watch? No.
Should that be the only criteria on which to judge him? IMO, no.

As I wrote above, at the time of his appointment, we were their superiors in the league. Compare our squad and our style of football to them since and tell me whose is the better?

If we could appoint a manager who could achieve similar performances, results AND usurp our more successful neighbours by finishing above them every season thus denying them a CL place in the next five years, I would take that now.

And I fancy a few more Evertonians might be similarly inclined.

Paul A Smith
44 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:16:37
Pochettino calls now. Some logic this. Lets get the man in who left about 300 millions worth of Spurs talent compared to Everton, on the same points as Everton.

20 games he lost last season and the most horrific thing he done in my eyes was the schoolboy error of leaving Moura on the bench v Liverpool.

Imagine ToffeeWeb had Silva done that. Total meltdown. Imagine any Everton manager done that.

Leaving a bang in form, skilful speed merchant out for Kane who had been out 2 months was dreadful and turned out dreadful.

Jim Burns
45 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:28:08
Fran @ 39 - we'll put and I'm in full agreement.
Some on here feeling he isn't good enough or no better than Silva need a reality check.
We need to be honest about where we are at the moment and what a reasonable next step in our return to success would look like.
Would we take Champions League places in 4 seasons and CL final as a decent return at this point in our history? Damn right we would.
As you say Fran, both clubs were standing on the starting line when he joined Spurs - one moved out of the blocks - the other fiddled about with its laces.
It's fair to say Spurs probably did
need to take - for them - the next step. and Poch's control had gone stale.
For us - he would definitely be the right manager at the right time for the next step...but I don't think we'll be in with any chance - even if we did make a move.
We need to either cross everything and hope Silva has a Howard's Way moment or look elsewhere.
Jay Wood

46 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:29:39
Ehrm, Paul @ 44. If you are going to imply fellow Evertonians are applying dumb logic in praising Pochettino, it's probably not too smart to display even dumber logic by cherry picking a single game over his 5 year tenure in an attempt to prove...well, I'm not really sure what.
Paul A Smith
47 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:33:03
Jay you never fail mate. One game? You somehow missed the 20 other games out that were mentioned, and the fact he left his excellent squad on the same points as us over 12 more games.

Trevor Peers
48 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:33:18
Strange that Paul#44, I don't see the Real Madrid, Man United or Bayern jobs linked to Marco Silva, are they all missing something?
Jim Burns
49 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:33:32
Jay @ 43 - by the time I'd one fingered my rather limited contribution - you had posted.

Just read it and wouldn't disagree with a word. count me in.

Jim Burns
50 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:37:24
Paul - you're assessing this - admittedly poor start - to this season against the previous 5 as a measure of his quality? Strange.
Dick Fearon
51 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:41:28
Gary C@8 plus others, Potch would be a good choice but now that Maureen is off the market there is possibly only one other with a proven trophy winning record that could be available.
But if small minded small town hatreds have their way it will never happen.
Paul A Smith
52 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:47:01
No Jim I am saying hes got negatives with a great squad. Don't expect greatness with a worse squad.

I am pretty sure I used the words "last season" in the post too. Is this just pick a line to debate on?

Christy Ring
53 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:49:58
Paul A Smith@44," Some logic this'? I agree with you regarding Moura, I said at the time, big mistake bringing back Kane, Moura was on fire after the hat trick against Ajax. But try and look at the bigger picture, imagine if Silva got us a top 4, and to a Champions League final? As I mentioned in my earlier post, the problem didn't start this season, Levy wouldn't give him a penny to spend, in a few of the transfer windows, which would have brought Spurs to a higher level, and his wage structure, is way behind the top teams.
Phil Smith
54 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:56:07
Am I the only one who spotted that Pickford did NOT play in England's last qualifying game - it was Nick Pope!
Paul A Smith
55 Posted 21/11/2019 at 13:57:11
Christy, all we have done as fans for a long time is moan about bringing failures to the club. Now there is a few shouts for a failure to come here.

I understand its the Anti Silva crowd jumping on any idea but it would be lovely if people stuck to principles.

You have all seen how well Silva done with a very good 11 last season. I think anyone who doubts he could do better with better players must be obsessed.

Jim Burns
56 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:05:32
Understood Paul - I think Christy @ 42 is probably near the mark with the cause of Poch's recent slide - rather than a judgement on his undoubted pedigree over a much longer period.
Jay Wood

57 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:07:25
Gibberish, Paul. You are trying to create a narrative that is not evident.

You are falsely presuming anyone speaking positively about Pochettino is by default:

1) anti-Silva
2) actively lobbying for Pochettino to replace Silva

Your (self-anointed) superior logic is so warped and trips over itself in so many ways there is no need to expose it as you do that yourself by with every submission you make.

Rob Halligan
58 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:08:22
Phil # 54. I noticed that Pickford never play in England's last game, even though I never watched any of it. Your point being what, though? I got the impression that as far as England were concerned, it was a meaningless game, and Southgate just decided to give Pope a game.
Jim Burns
59 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:09:07
Paul - incidentally I never suggested he'd bring greatness - just a progressive upgrade on where we are now with a squad, which in my view, has far more potential than the current incumbent is releasing.
Paul A Smith
60 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:15:30
No, Jay, it's just the other side of the coin from an open mind.

I'd rather have a younger manager with no failures to his name or a hugely successful manager.

Jay Wood

61 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:26:06
Paul, an assessment of different aspects of Pochettino's record at Spurs is a legitimate one.

Your labelling him as a 'failure' is questionable at best.

Your derogatory labelling and presumptions about fellow Evertonians views on Pochettino whilst promoting your own view as superior is gibberish.

Clear enough for your 'open mind'?

Nicholas Ryan
62 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:37:02
Presumably, Pickford is the only footballer, shunted aside, to make way for a Pope?!
Mark Guglielmo
63 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:48:06
So much back & forth over Pochettino this, and Pochettino that.

It's funny. Why? Because he's never coming to Everton. Next up, does the Loch Ness Monster exist, and can he play striker?!

Kevin Prytherch
64 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:51:55
Jay 43 – I'm not doubting Pochettino is a good manager, but is he top level? Most managers could have got a team challenging the top 6 with Kane in the side. Whether they'd have been as good, we'll never know.
Paul A Smith
65 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:07:55
Derogatory hahaha. Comedy.

Okay, sorry you are offended, Jay.

I will put it like this, are those who are calling for Pochettino (which, like Mark says, won't happen most likely) prepared to give him time? Will he be hounded out when we sell his best player and results are not great? Will we be calling for Nagelsmaan or some other fancy name after 12 months?

I just don't kid myself. I read comment after comment refusing to give Silva time, Koeman only got just over a year and I am afraid Pochettino's time at Spurs was a failure.

Tell me what he won? Did he quit or wait for his compensation? To call his time there a success is not the worst shout either, Jay, but he has left after 12 months of failing to do what he wanted, mate. With a hell of a squad.

We get someone like him and don't get the level of players he has worked with for 3 years, it's pointless.

Steve Ferns
66 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:19:12
Mark, we can debate whether Guardiola is good enough for Everton.

I'll start, he's only won stuff when he's had Messi, Lewandowski, or De Bruyne. He won't win anything with a team built around Gylfi Sigurdsson!

Mark Guglielmo
67 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:47:14
Oh Steve, believe me, the we can debate isn't in question. It's the why bother? I think is funny.

This exact same debate could have been, and probably was, had about Jose. Just change the manager, exact same debate.

This is a thread about Kean! Let's talk about him! :-)

Jay Wood

68 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:49:59
Kevin @ 64.

I have to point out the very obvious flaw to your twice repeated claim now that "most managers could have got a team challenging the top 6 with Kane in the side." The Harry Kane you see today is not the Harry Kane Pochettino inherited.

Pochettino's first season with Spurs was 2014-15. In the previous season 2013-14, Kane scored 8 goals in 8 games...for Spurs U-21 team. He got just 10 PL games in that season, scoring 3. He had 7 Europa League appearances, 0 goals.

Prolific goalscorer at the highest level, or even a 1st team regular he most certainly was not.

In Pochettino's 1st season, Kane blossomed under the manager. 21 goals in 34 PL games. 7 goals in 9 EL games. 3 goals in 6 league cup games.

Kane's a fine player, but to attempt as you do to diminish Pochettino's contribution in improving his number 9 and setting the team up to maximize the returns from his main man ignores where Kane and Spurs were before the Spaniard took up the reins at the club, IMO.

Trevor Peers
69 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:51:50
Silva could have sold Sigurdsson in the summer but chose not to, he also bought other midfielders who can't score more than 1 goal a season; genius, isn't he?
Ray Roche
70 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:06:28
Trevor, you said that Silva could have sold Sigurdsson in the Summer but chose not to.

I don't remember any clubs making an offer for him. Did I miss something? Were there offers for him?

Jay Wood

72 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:09:06
Mark @ 67, you keep repeating the mantra that Everton cannot attract a certain category of manager due to our lowly profile.

In very recent history, Newcastle - a team in the relegation zone at the time, a team with far lesser history and pedigree than Everton, recruited a serial European trophy winner who started that very same season as Real Madrid manager.

Rafa Benitez.

They were relegated to the Championship. He stayed with them, won them promotion and stuck around for another couple of seasons in the PL.

That is a clear example contrary to your belief that a club of Everton's profile cannot attract such high quality managers.

Then we have the example of the last five years at Spurs. As I point out in my post @ 43, in the season before Pochettino was appointed Everton finished above them.

Five years on and yesterday they appointed one of the highest profile managers in world football in the last 20 years.

By your rationale, that should not happen. It isn't plausible. But Spurs have just gone out and done it. And landed him for a reported £8 million a year, a third of the £25 million salary Steve Ferns kept repeating it would cost any club to hire Mourinho.

The Everton club motto is Nil Satis Nisi Optimum - Nothing But the Best Satisfies.

The Spurs club motto is Audere est Facere - To Dare is To Do.

Five years ago we were their betters in the PL.

Five years on, who do you think has best lived up to their club motto?

Steve Ferns
73 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:21:11
Ray, I never saw any such rumours either. If someone offered us more than 㿀m for Gylfi, then I think we'd take it.
Trevor Peers
74 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:22:14
No Ray#70. Silva decided Sigurdsson was a key part of his plans for this season, but the goals have dried up. A move would benefit both club and player.

He has 2 years to run on his present contract by next summer, so the next two windows would be the ideal time to cash in on him and invest the money in someone younger. Hopefully someone who can score10 goals a season

Mark Guglielmo
75 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:26:24
Well, Jay, I guess it boils down to how you spin a narrative, and who you consider a top level manager. Sure Rafa has a very good pedigree, but all he did was get Newcastle promoted from the Championship and stick around for a couple years in the bottom half of the table. If that's all we expect from a top manager, well Silva is doing that already so why even have this aspect of the discussion?

Regarding the year Spurs went out to get Poch, and them being below us in the table. This is the spin the narrative aspect of your comment. You're going to hang your hat on the ONE year we finished above them (5th for us; 6th for them)? Why are you omitting the next 5 years? Or Champions League qualification, let alone performance? Anyone can cherry pick a single example. It doesn't make it a good argument.

If you genuinely think a manager like Poch, coming off finishes of 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3 CL appearances, and a CL finals last year, would essentially want to be demoted to our Club, well ok then. That's certainly your right to do so. Lots of people dreamt of Mourinho coming here too.

When Poch does sign with a United, or a Bayern, or a R.Madrid, I won't even say "told you so." I won't need to.

Mike Gaynes
76 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:27:31
Trevor, in addition to confirming that Steve and Ray are correct -- there was no such opportunity -- I should point out that it's Brands who buys and sells players, not Silva.

Of course they put their heads together, but it's the Director of Football who makes the ultimate decision.

Ray Roche
77 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:29:35
Steve, Trevor,

I agree that if a decent offer for Siggy was made then we should cash in on him. I like the guy but he hasn't reached the heights that he did at Swansea, then again, maybe we should study Swansea's style and see where we got it wrong!

Always play a player in the correct position and, as a team and individuals, play to your strengths. Royle did it with his Dogs of War... Successfully.

Steve Ferns
78 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:39:28
Ray, I'm not a betting man but I would stake a fortune on the fact that Marco Silva would not have signed Gylfi Sigurdsson when we did. He just does not fit the profile of a Marco Silva Number 10.

Silva's first number 10 was the Brazilian Evandro. He was fast and could carry the ball, good passer and chipped in with goals. At Sporting, they played 4-3-3, but Joao Mario was the closest to the No 10 and did play there in Europe when Silva played on the counter with a 4-2-3-1, or I think Nani (Man Utd) might have played there once or twice. But again these two were pacey and good ball carriers.

At Olympiacos, he had the rapid Kostas Fortounis. At Hull, he brought Evandro in, but he was out of his depth in the Premier League and Hull played with more of a 4-1-3-2. I think Cleverly played there for Watford, and he is less mobile, but again, Silva didn't sign him.

I see Anthony Gordon as being someone Silva would love, but at 18 he is a long way off starting there. Meanwhile, Alex Iwobi has a lot of qualities Silva likes in a Number 10. The main issue is he misses too many chances. His xG is terrible.

Jay Wood

79 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:03:46
Mark @ 75.

You've completely failed to grasp the points I've made. In addition, you mistakenly attribute to me that I am campaigning for Pochettino to be appointed as Everton manager. I'm not. I'm simply recognizing his achievements.

Rafa Benitez is a top level manager. He has proven that across Europe wherever he has worked. You accuse me of 'spinning a narrative' and then state "all he did was get Newcastle promoted from the Championship and stick around for a couple years in the bottom half of the table" as if that was ALL he has ever achieved in his career.

Not content with that, you extrapolate that isolated claim and attribute it to the wider Everton community by asking "is that all we expect from a top manager?"

You wed two fallacies together and present it as broad accepted consensus amongst Evertonians. A complete falsehood on all counts.

As for the (very reasonable, IMO) reference to the season in the time range before Pochettino joined Spurs when we finished above them (reasonable, because I'm making a direct comparison between how the respective clubs have performed in many aspects in the 5 years since from essentially the same starting point), in answering the question you put to me you are simply reaffirming the very point I'm making.

They've progressed. We haven't. But because they've 'Dared to Do' they now have in situ a manager who, I repeat, based on your own oft-repeated rationale, would not be interested in and never accept the manager's job at Spurs.

And to reiterate yet again, you have absolutely no basis to claim that I am saying that I "genuinely think a manager like Poch...would essentially want to be demoted to our Club." None.

That is YOUR fabrication, Mark.

I would also add I'm not impressed by you stating that any player or manager would view a move to Everton as 'demotion'. I hold my club in higher regard than that.

Try paying attention to what posters actually write, Mark, before making so many false assumptions.

Bobby Mallon
80 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:18:49
I've been watching Brazil playing at Goodison 1966 World Cup. When did the half moons behind goal get taken away. I thought they where great
Stan Schofield
81 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:19:10
Mark@75: Although Everton have been midtable for nearly three decades, I believe the football world does not view us as a midtable club in the same way that other midtable clubs with a lesser history than us would be viewed.

When Moshiri came here, and particularly when he appointed Koeman on a ٥M/year salary, a fair portion of the media were commenting that we were aiming to recover our former status as (in their words) 'football aristocrats'.

I'm not sure that the world of football, and the media, would raise any eyebrows if someone like Mourinho joined us, and certainly not if Pochettino did so. In contrast, I think eyebrows would be raised if such managers joined the likes of, say, West Ham or Leicester, simply because such clubs lack our pedigree of trophies won and time consistently spent in the top flight.

Joe McMahon
82 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:24:48
He needs what I wanted Lookman to get (but never happened), a consistent run of games and not from the bench.

Stan @81, a bit harsh on Leicester. Our pedigree of trophies as you refer to ended many years ago. And as for our Champions League record, well, eerrmm... oh dear.

Mark Guglielmo
83 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:27:05
Well Jay, I wasn't discussing whether or not Pochettino, or Benitez, were good managers. You spent 43 paragraphs explaining why they were, and gave examples – thin ones at that; you saying they're not doesn't make it gospel - of how those 2 managers did something similar by going to "lesser" clubs. Paraphrase needed again because you write short stories.

But then you finish it up with saying you're not even advocating that he become manager, so what, you're just arguing for argument's sake? Don't answer that, it was rhetorical.

It was you who brought up Benitez at Newcastle, not me. If you wanted to talk about his Chelsea win, or his success from 2004, then say so. You can keep saying Pochettino took Spurs from 6th to 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th as proof of what he can do, but it doesn't matter in the least. I'm not debating that.

You use Jose as an example of Spurs having "just gone out and done it." Well, Jose was unemployed, no one was knocking down his door, his Man Utd tenure was not good, so using that same recent history, why wouldn't Spurs be a good destination for him? They just finished 4th and made it to the Champions League Finals. Maybe he's just the guy to turn them around and do it again, or even better. That's hardly the same thing.

My point remains as to why would a manager of his stature and merits come to Everton? The point of a career is to progress, not go sideways, or even regress. Your opinion of Everton is irrelevant. We're a midtable Club who hasn't won anything in forever. If you think that's a good stepping stone for someone like Pochettino, well, I have some beachfront property in Florida for sale that you may be interested in.

Feel free to use a lot of words to tell me I'm wrong, I don't really mind either way. It was you that sidetracked the conversation off my one and only point. Someone like Pochettino would not come here. Fin.

Oh, and Stan @81, look I understand, those of you who've been supporting Everton longer than I, which is all of you (lol), have a hard time admitting where the Club is and has been for 25+ years. I'm not weighed down by those sentiments, and can only form my opinion based on the 5 or so years of global football I'm most familiar with. We may spend like a big club, no doubt there (I believe it's 17th most in the 5 top flights), so that could surely be an allure, but you have to agree that, if not money, then any top level manager wants Europe, or to challenge to win leagues. We are not (yet) that Club and history supports that. As much as I want that to change, presumably like we all do, it just hasn't yet.

Bobby Mallon
84 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:27:51
Steve @73, if Silva did not rate Sigurdsson, then he surely would not play him. But he has. Okay, last couple of games, he's been a sub. Let's be honest: Gylfi is not a bad player – he's top class in a system that does not suit his style.
Paul A Smith
85 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:29:27
Trevor, you seriously believe Silva wanted all them signings?

We have a Director of Football that has a lot of input into all our signings.

Do you honestly believe he wanted to lose Gana and bring in a cheaper midfielder from a slower league that couldn't speak a word of English?

I couldn't stand Koeman but I wouldn't be so obsessed with it that I left Walsh out of Koeman's failure.

He wanted Witsel, Depay, Giroud. How many of them did we sign? Do you think he said "Okay, we will take Bolasie then, and work with Calvert-Lewin"?

David Thomas
86 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:30:36
Yeah let's stick with Silva or go for the likes of Eddie Howe.

How stupid of us to even consider going after Pochettino or Mourhino... we should know our place and stick with the also-ran managers.

Steve Ferns
87 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:31:26
Stan, Jay is best placed to give you an insight into how others view Everton. He's lived in different places.

My friends in Portugal had sadly never heard of us when I first started going there in the late 90s. Their dads had, but the younger lads hadn't. They only knew Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal. Fast-forward to now and it seems like everyone in Portugal knows all the teams in the Championship, never mind the Premier League. This is more to do with the marketing power of the league than the reputation of individual clubs.

I also remember going to Germany on an exchange in the '90s and the lad never heard of us, but his dad was a Bayern fan and had seen us in Munich. He had fond memories of our great team.

I think a lot depends on age. For example, the most successful team in France is St Etienne. Those of us who saw their great side in Europe (playing Liverpool for example) will consider them a massive club. An English youngster would consider them a minor French team as they have been in the doldrums for sometime. Whereas PSG, who were a nothing club until the oil money, are now the biggest club in France, when it's always traditionally been Marseilles.

Bobby Mallon
88 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:38:27
St Etienne... what a team who play in green. I loved them in the '80s.
David Thomas
89 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:41:07
If the club offered enough money, a top manager would come to Everton. I personally would much rather we paid a top manager 㾻 million plus a year than went out this summer and spent a shed load of money on players of the quality of Iwobi, Sigurdsson and Kean etc.
David Thomas
90 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:46:22
Put it this way: if we had got Pochettino or Mourinho or someone of that quality and we paid them 㾻 million each year over a 3-year contract, that would equate to more or less what we splashed out on Gylfi Sigurdsson before his wages.

Now what would have been better for Everton's future?

Paul A Smith
91 Posted 21/11/2019 at 18:06:28
David @86, that is basically what I have been trying to say. Principles are hot and cold.

If everyone is truly all about wanting and targeting the best available then where was the shouts for Mourinho even when Silva was doing ok?

I try to stick with what I wish for all the time so affection for anyone is out of the window. If a better left-back than Digne is available I want him in the side, and I love Digne's game.

Last year if you suggested buying a number 10 to replace Sigurdsson you were insane to the masses. Its bizarre to me and I can't understand the affection when Sigurdsson would bail like a theif if Man Utd came in for him.

I would bet my life that while Everton do business the way we do and fail to replace the players we lose, we will never be the Champions league side or title winners I want us to be under any manager.

Certainly not in the style Moshiri has said he wants. Only Moyes-like scouting and buys with defence based football could give us an outside chance.

Leicester have kept Vardy how long? Spurs were behind us 8 years ago and kept Kane for how long? That has kept both of them clubs with a chance of Champions League football.

Fucking Leicester... My heart bleeds.

Jay Wood

92 Posted 21/11/2019 at 18:14:31
Mark @ 83.

Let me deal with your 'dissing' first, then I'll get back to what you seem to struggle with: the actual debate.

It's not particularly wise of you to engage in ad hominem attacks with another false claim that I wrote a 'short story' reply (340 words - thank you Word doc count), only for you to post an even longer reply (483 words - 42% more).

In truth, there is not an awful lot to engage with in your latest post because it's a complete misportrayal of everything I've written on this thread, but I'll give it a stab.

Like (thankfully a very few) other posters on TW, you seem to wish to dictate the terms of engagement in when and how people respond to your posts. Check out this beaut of an example:

"It was you that sidetracked the conversation off my one and only point. Someone like Poch would not come here. Fin."

Gotcha! YOU can make a claim. (In this case, your belief that no manager of standing could be contracted by a club of Everton's standing). But others cannot contest it, or offer concrete examples that undermine such a claim.

Nah! Ain't gonna happen on TW. Your word is not final nor sacrosanct.

Your petulant exception to two very clear counter examples I offer you, Benitez at Newcastle, Mourinho now at Spurs, doesn't make for a convincing counter, as much as you try to obfuscate things with a lot of garbled words and further falsehoods.

Kevin Prytherch
95 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:03:45
Jay 68 - no flaw. Poch came into a team that had Kane. He wasn't playing him regularly at first, but played him in Europe where he was banging them in for fun. Only after a couple of months and a lot of fan pressure did Poch start playing him regularly and never looked back.

Like I said, most managers with a talent like Kane could have done well. Poch might be a great coach, but until he proves himself elsewhere he might also be a fortunate benefactor of inheriting a player about to embark on becoming world class.

Like I said - time will tell.

Jay Wood

96 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:08:13
Steve @ 87.

I've had many a surprising Everton-related encounter on my travels.

I was once well off the beaten track in northeast Thailand in the mid-80s around the time of our glory years, staying in a Buddhist monastery.

Naturally, I was a 'farang' that generated great curiosity, so I often sat down with 15-20 monks looking intensely at me.

Now this was at a time that English football did not have as great a global reach as today, so I was pleased that with my few words of Thai and the monks even fewer words of English that some of them knew of Everton.

What I wasn't prepared for was one of them – shaven-headed, wrapped in an orange robe – uttering his only two words of English and naming an Everton player.

Neville Southall?
Kevin Ratcliffe?
Peter Reid?
Andy Gray?
Graham Sharpe?

None of them!

The name he came up with?

Derek Mountfield!

It remains a mystery to me to this day.

Steve Ferns
97 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:11:46
That's a funny story, Jay, you couldn't make it up, as they say.
Don Alexander
98 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:14:13
Jay, was the monastery Trappist?
Steve Ferns
99 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:17:06
David, we're over budget already aren't we? Isn't Brands trying to slash the wage bill? Now you want to increase it by 𧷤k a week. Who's going to fund that? Does Moshiri sack a manager he wants and then pay 㿞M to get a manager you want?

What about the manager's transfer funds? Where does this come from. Does Moshiri come up with another 𧶀M+ to back the new manager?

Can't Moshiri sit back and say "I've thrown a load of money at it, I'm going to build a stadium, we're not getting relegated so I'll see how this plays out"?

David Thomas
101 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:46:35

Moshiri can obviously do what he wants – it's his money.

If that's his view that we are not getting relegated so let's just leave it as it is then that's great for him and people like yourself if you're happy with that.

Remember, this is the guy who thought big Sam was a good choice and thinks in silva (a manager who has lost more league games than he has won) he has got a good manager. So I don't think he's got the best track record of choosing a manager.

I personally don't want to settle for just avoiding relegation. I want a team that is going to progress and hopefully look like it's building a future where, in time, it can compete with its former peers.

If you asked me now would I prefer to have a Poch or Mourinho in charge and pay them big bucks rather than paying bang average players that we seem to keep buying 80 to 100 thousand a week then I would certainly go for that.

We are never going to be successful again without a top manager and the likes of Silva aren't good enough.

However, maybe I'm wrong and you're right and it will suddenly click and Silva will show me why you think he is such a fantastic manager and we will suddenly go shooting up the league and start threatening the top four, year-in & year-out.

I won't hold my breath, though.

Stan Schofield
102 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:46:46
Mark @83 & Steve @87: Guys, I knew when I posted @81 that there might be responses like yours, and you are quite correct in what you say. I don't wish to be an old git Evertonian who's stuck in the past with romantic notions about our status.

The reason I've said what I've said @81 is not because of any notions on my part, but because of habitually hearing comments from non-Evertonians, plus comments from the media from time to time. I realise there will be kids who've hardly or never heard of Everton, and that we've basically been 'shite' for nearly three decades. I say 'shite' in inverted commas, because an awful lot of folks outside of Everton don't consider us shite as such. Many consider us a 'sleeping giant', and I've heard that term so many times when I haven't even mentioned how good we were in the past.

I understand that the likes of Mourin ake up. I've heard it so many times. It surprised me at first, but I expect it now.

That said, it's really dependent on money, lots of it. That was the basis of our success in the 60s, and it's the same now, but on a grander scale. Man City's success is based on it, but they're nevertheless viewed grudgingly by many people as 'new money'.

We were once called the 'cheque book team' in the 60s because of our rise based on money. But the legacy of that rise exists in the image of Everton, not for all, especially kids, but for many. What marked us out is 'quality', the sheer quality of football we played, being ahead of our time in playing through midfield when others were booting from defence to attack. Because we had the money to get the best players, and the manager to organise them.

It's all history, ancient history for youngsters, but it's there, and apparently has made an impact on people. That's why, if and when we finally gel, put results together consistently, and really compete, there will be no surprises. It won't be like Leicester.

Mike Gaynes
103 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:55:23
Great clarity there, Stan #102. Really good post.
Daniel Thomas
104 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:58:16
God. You lot and your bickering do keep me entertained.

For the record, you can argue the case positively and negatively for pretty much any manager out there.

Personally, I think Pochettino has shown enough in the last 6 years to suggest he would be a massive upgrade on Silva.

Ray Smith
105 Posted 21/11/2019 at 20:09:28
Can we please stop all this back biting and nit picking, some of which is getting rather personal.

Agree to disagree by all means, but maintain a healthy respect for each other.

TW is a social site for Evertonians to chew the cud, reminisce over experiences and various anecdotes.

I did post a similar post on the previous Kean thread (@98) to no avail.

I for one am getting rather tired of certain TWers constantly griping at each other.

I can do the obvious, but would rather remain a member of a group who despite their differences of opinion, remain polite even in adversity.

Joe McMahon
106 Posted 21/11/2019 at 20:23:38
Off topic, another reason why we need bigger than 52k capacity is that that lot have plans for 60k expansion. 52k is small-minded.
Bobby Mallon
107 Posted 21/11/2019 at 20:46:25
Can you believe, we have had two public consultations about our new stadium and nothing mentioned about them on the radio. As soon as Liverpool invite residents to a consultation over expanding to 60,000 it's all over 5 Live, the red twats.
Jim Burns
108 Posted 21/11/2019 at 20:59:42
You surprised at all Bobby?
Joe McMahon
109 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:03:11
Bobby I suppose success and trophies brings more exposure, we know our place.
James Flynn
110 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:05:32

This is some weak shit.

This is a discussion board. There can't be more than 15-20 posters in here who are genuinely interesting reads. Sometimes I agree with what they post, sometimes I don't. Where I do agree regarding all of them is that they post in their own interesting, thought-provoking way. Jay Wood is one.

You're not.

And lay off the use of "we". You're the spokesperson for exactly one individual. Try improving o how he presents himself in here.

Don Alexander
111 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:30:50
James (#110), Jay Wood on Everton is almost always worth reading in my opinion. Jay Wood on countering other posters' opinions in his usual condescending manner is a Bombastic Repugnant Zombie (his acronym) to me.

That said, the bloke has acknowledged many of us think of him as an arrogant, boorish bore (his words, and no Jay, I haven't got your admission to hand) but he also makes it clear he doesn't give a damn.

You can usually identify which of the two Jay's is posting within the first paragraph, and move on accordingly.

Mark Guglielmo
112 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:31:18
Stan @102, good post. I always appreciate your perspective and make sure to stop my scrolling when I see you've contributed.

So hey fellas, what about that Kean, huh? You know, the topic of this thread? haha. Won't hold my breath but hopefully he gets some real minutes on Saturday. I swear this has been the longest international break ever, and probably doing its part to contribute to the crankiness of some, myself included. We need football!

Steve Ferns
113 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:37:02
Ray, you are quite right. I think, because it's Everton, we can just get a bit too emotive about it. We need to remember that we're all on the same side. It's our collective frustrations boiling over.

We're all deeply unhappy with being where we are in the table, whether or not we wish to be patient or not. We all want Everton to win stuff and to do it soon. If we can navigate this very difficult run of games and get a number of points on the board, and climb the table, then I think tensions on TW will ease.

Football is a funny business: when you are losing everything is wrong, and when you are winning, everything is right. Sometimes, you can be great off the pitch and it just takes time for that to manifest onto the pitch.

Ray Smith
114 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:44:40
Steve, you're a wise old sage. I agree with your sentiments.

I enjoy healthy banter, and agreeing to disagree as and when. That's where the line should be drawn.

Kevin Latham
115 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:54:48
Stan (102),

I really enjoy your posts, probably because I seem to agree with most of them. I know I'm generalising here and expect some disagreement (it's ToffeeWeb after all!) but it seems like we fall into 2 groups on the site – those who have seen us winning things and those who haven't.

The former group are obviously the older ones, who not only saw glory but to whom names like Dixie and Tommy Lawton were a reality. I never saw Dixie play but I remember seeing him on the pitch at his testimonial and being in complete awe.

My point is, in those days we were football royalty who were naturally part of the game's elite. That was the natural order of things and why people like me find it so difficult to accept the mediocrity of the last God knows how many years. Call me deluded, I realise why.

But we'll never get back among the elite if we continue to think that top class managers and players are out of our reach. As someone pointed out earlier Benitez went to Newcastle, and their last trophy was 1969. So to those who haven't seen us as a force in the game, take heart. Stan is right to call us a sleeping giant and our stock within the game may be higher than you think.

I've worn Everton tops quite a bit on holiday in the US and you'd be surprised how often they've been recognised by the locals in many different states. In fact one of the Tampa Bay Rays baseball players threw me a ball shouting ‘that's for the Everton guy'. (I know our American contributors won't be impressed with the Rays but there you are.)

I know it may come across as condescending and that's certainly not my intention but I can understand why our ‘younger' group appear more resigned to the lesser ambition shown by the club as they have nothing to measure it against. I haven't expressed that very well but I'm just trying to make a point, please don't anybody feel offended.

Everton is a way of life for all of us and, for dreamers (some may say dinosaurs) like me, we should always aim to be up there with the best. Otherwise, mediocrity will become our standard for years to come. It's been far too long as it is.

Paul A Smith
116 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:00:31
It's still a good thread, lots of opinion is reality. We just have to learn to say its just blues with a different idea rather than fight...

To fall out on here is actually a bit uneducated when on another topic you could fully agree tomorrow with the person you disagreed and argued with yesterday.

On another note, Big Dunc's interview on Toffeetv is fantastic. Both parts. Or was for me anyway.

Steve Ferns
117 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:05:38
Kevin, I can't accept mediocrity either. I think you probably believe I'm doing so by championing the likes of Silva, but I think it's the complete opposite.

I cannot foresee how Everton win the league with the present conditions unless we catch a manager who can do what Mourinho did with Porto. Even Pochettino, for everything he did, has now ultimately come up short.

You may well think, but I just named Mourinho so get Mourinho. Even if we could, and I don't we can afford him either in terms or wages, transfer fees, or clean up costs after he's left, I still don't think this Mourinho is capable of doing what the young Mourinho did. We need a manager on the upswing, not the downswing.

Have Everton ever had a big name manager who delivered? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Catterick something of a gamble? Kendall was appointed from a second-tier Blackburn, wasn't he? Royle hadn't really done anything before. The only manager I recall with lots of trophies in the bank was the (to use his own favourite word) “disappointing” Walter Smith.

I think Brands is here for the long haul and I think, if Silva is not the man to do it, he will hire another one and another one until he gets the right one who will take us up the table, and put trophies in the cabinet. And by 'hire another Silva', I mean a Pochettino type, a young manager with potential and something about him who can get us up the table and challenging for the title.

Stan Schofield
118 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:17:34
Mark @112: You're right, it's a thread about Kean. But I think all this other stuff, the background, is central to Kean, in that just like in the past, when we won trophies, the youngsters who were involved made their best contributions when the team overall was working as a machine.

When that happens consistently, hopefully very soon, Kean will likely then have a big effect. Without the team working as a machine, it's just very difficult for the younger players.

John Keating
119 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:28:07

I don't believe Catterick was a gamble when he was appointed, as much as any manager can be!

He'd done really well with Sheffield Wednesday if I recall in the couple of years or so he was there. Sure they'd finished above us each season?

I think Carey going the way he did and a few days later Catterick appearing threw a few. Carey did appear to be slowly sorting us out but obviously Moores wasn't happy with him.

No, I'm sure Catterick was well thought of when we got him.

Steve Ferns
120 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:30:09
John, you'd know far than me on that one.

How many trophies had he won though?

John Keating
121 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:37:36

I'm not sure, to be honest. I think none when he came to us. I'm sure he brought Wednesday up from the 2nd Division and, I might be wrong here, but sure he came 2nd to the great Spurs team that won the league in '61 and '62.

And they were a great team, by the way. Double winners.

Stan Schofield
122 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:45:58
John, yes, I think it was none. But Shankly was the same when Liverpool got him from Huddersfield around the same time.

Regarding Shankly, apparently the Liverpool chairman T V Williams went to a Huddersfield game, and approached Shankly after the game. He said to him, "How would you like to manage the best club in England?" Shankly replied,"Why, has Matt Busby resigned?"

Derek Cowell
123 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:50:14
John at 121, Ipswich won the league in 1962! Spurs only won it in '61 and never since, unlike our 4 times!
John Keating
124 Posted 21/11/2019 at 22:59:39
Derek, I'm afraid is was a bit long ago for me to remember exactly!

Spurs may well have only won it in 61 but sure they got the double and regardless I do remember they were a great team then.

Stan, yes, I heard that. Just goes to prove it's the right man at the right time at the right club. Never mind previous honours... well, unless your name's Pep!

Kevin Latham
125 Posted 21/11/2019 at 23:06:41
Steve, the issue about managers isn't necessarily trophies won. I think I'm right in saying that Matt Busby, Shankly, Bill Nicholson and Don Revie had won nothing as managers before they made the big time.

And yes, Walter Smith may have won a shed full but in an inferior league so no guarantee of success there. Silva could be said to be in the same category of course in Portugal and Greece.

But Busby and the rest clearly showed something to someone which marked them out as wanted men, Catterick the same. And they all delivered.

Now I'm not saying Silva won't but his record so far in the Premier League doesn't inspire me with as much confidence as it does yourself. It's all opinion of course. It'd be great if in 20 years we could say that he'd eclipsed The Catt and Howard, time will tell. I'm not being snarky here, all of us want success and if it comes through Marco then I'd gladly say I got it wrong as I'm dancing - well shuffling hopelessly - down Queens Drive as the open-topped bus goes by.

And I'm with you on Mourinho, by the way. He's a busted flush and will suck the life out of Spurs before his usual tantrums start in Year 2 when he starts his payoff strategy.

Eddie Dunn
126 Posted 21/11/2019 at 23:27:29
Kevin, don't underestimate The Special One. I expect a couple of good months when all of those top players pull their proverbial fingers out of their proverbial arses and dish out some good displays that will make Spurs fans wonder what one Earth has been going on behind the scenes.

I fully expect it all to end in tears, as the ego will eventually destroy all the good things he creates! For me, it's going to give Spurs a short term boost which will propel them up into the top 6.

Who else could walk in there and front-up all of the big names? Certainly not Eddie Howe or Chris Houghton. You need a big-headed know-all with a proven track record... for me, they missed a trick – they should have got Benitez.

Steve Ferns
127 Posted 21/11/2019 at 23:47:41
I also won't completely write off Mourinho. His issue seems to be connecting with the players and desire. He may have got his hunger back, that's not infeasible. Reconnecting with the players is the obstacle I foresee. But Jose has psychology qualifications and may have been brushing up on it in his downtime. However, my money will go on him being the “grumpy one” rather the “special one”.

Kevin, you weren't snarky at all. What you said makes perfect sense. It's just a question of perspective. You've got a different one to me and I fully accept that.

Don Alexander
128 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:27:14
Eddie, Maureen has got the job because for next season Spuds NEED to be in the top four, and the season after that, and the season after that. WHY? Because of the huge cost of their new stadium. Qualifying for the CL ensures £100 million per year minimum. The Europa is peanuts in comparison. So if the Special Dickhead wants to succeed he needs way better than top six.

A bit like us as and when BMD becomes a reality.


Steve Brown
129 Posted 22/11/2019 at 05:39:12
Interesting reading the arguments on here about where we should pitch our managerial search if Silva left. I don't buy into the presumption that we can't afford to pay for a top tier manager (we paid 8 million just to ditch Allardyce) or that we shouldn't aim for a top tier manager. If you recruit your manager from Preston, Wigan, Palace, Soton and Hull City, then you get what you pay for (and haven't we just!).

We are in a turnaround phase as a club and a business. The focus has to be on capability, standards and ambition - NSNO. As Jay Wood rightly says, if we don't think like a big club and act with limited ambition, then we won't become one. Of course, it is also practicalities - under FFP rules we need to lose the salaries of Schneiderlin, Walcott, Sigurdsson and Tosun to allow us invest in our squad to the next level. It is also about finding values in players early in their careers. Brands is doing really well on both these fronts.

But if we as fans claim that we cannot attract a certain category of manager due to our low profile, then I don't think we can accuse the club hierarchy of lacking ambition or settling for mediocrity. Because, the truth is that in football as in any business, money and ambition will get you talent.

Steve Brown
130 Posted 22/11/2019 at 05:44:59
On the topic of the actual thread - Moise Kean. Play him in his favoured position for 5 games and then we can judge. We can already see the benefit of that with Tom and Mason who have been stand-out performers recently.

He is a 19 year old in a foreign league, with an under pressure manager who is making mistakes and team mates who are a mix of immature young talent and senior pros with low standards. He could be a real star of the future, provided we don't bungle it as per usual.

Mark Guglielmo
131 Posted 22/11/2019 at 16:06:51
Anyone see/read Silva's comments re: Kean today? About time someone (him) finally put to bed all the silliness about Kean going here, or being loaned there.
Charles Brewer
132 Posted 22/11/2019 at 16:48:12
I watched the U-21 clip (thanks for the link, Jay), and was struck by the fact that Kean was invariably about when the Italian attack was going on. On a good day with more fortunate rebounds or more alert colleagues, he could have had five and he did get two. His positioning and anticipation were outstanding. He was regularly the only player unmarked and in a position to threaten scoring.

I realise that it was just a U-21 match, but his sense of position, his availability in attack and his ability to be in a place where a rebound or a good cross was going to reach him were all superb.

If that extended clip was anything like the real Kean when he's allowed to play as a striker, then we have got a potentially 30 a year forward.

It looks like another "brilliant playing for his country, crap when playing to Silva's instructions."

Tony McNulty
133 Posted 22/11/2019 at 17:21:33
Stan (102)

We are all heading for "old git" status. It is merely a matter of time. I saw us in the glory days, so you can guess where I sit.

I picked up your throwaway line about booting the ball from defence to attack. Basically that is what accounts for the success of the RS, although I have to admit their speedy strikers are absolutely suited to that game.

When you were brought up on a midfield of Ball, Kendall and Harvey, the constant use of the long ball game is a pretty appalling watch. For all his faults (and I remain unconvinced that SIlva is the one to bring the glory days back) at least he does seem to encourage good football.

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