Silva's men buckle at Brighton as VAR finally comes for Everton

By Lyndon Lloyd 27/10/2019 104comments  |  Jump to last
Brighton 3 - 2 Everton

We knew it was coming. Everton had largely been spared travesty via VAR over the first nine games of the season but football’s consuming controversy finally enveloped the Toffees in typical fashion yesterday afternoon, precipitating another late collapse in Marco Silva’s side.

Prior to yesterday, there hadn’t been an instance of a Video Assistant Referee overruling a decision made on the pitch to award a penalty but the Premier League’s ”high bar” was lowered just in time for Everton to be penalised by a familiar nemesis in Lee Mason, up there with the worst officials in the country. Mason’s verdict handed Brighton the chance to level the match again at 2-2 and then go on and win it in cruel fashion through Lucas Digne’s own goal.

Unfortunately, the VAR bar wasn’t low enough for clear grappling on Richarlison at an earlier corner to be deemed worthy of a spot-kick in Everton’s favour; just one more injustice for a club once penalised in farcical fashion by new rules two seasons ago when the Football Association retroactively banned Oumar Niasse for trying to deceive the officials… and never applied the regulation again.

The “VARce” at the Amex Stadium was only part of the equation, though, because there are deeper-seated issues at play in this Everton side behind why they didn’t leave Brighton rueing being deprived two points and instead spent the long journey north mulling yet another defeat, the Blues’ sixth in nine Premier League games.

Like many of its predecessors, this Silva side can be pitifully weak mentally, a trait that underpinned that dreadful run of form after what happened in the Anfield derby and is playing itself out now in some dreadful performances and results since the start of the season. Rather than regroup, dig in and first ensure that they were set up to claim at least a draw from yesterday, Everton allowed Brighton to seize the initiative and earn in stoppage time a win that had looked well beyond them 15 minutes earlier when Dominic Calvert-Lewin had put the visitors ahead. That the winner came via a Lucas Digne own goal just seemed fitting under dark clouds and soaking rain inside the Amex.

That really was what made this such a punch to the gut for the 2,800-odd Evertonians massed in the South Stand of Brighton’s new ground — the Blues were on course not only for a rare victory but a first win under Silva where they had recovered from going behind. Having shot themselves in the foot with another of André Gomes’s brainless, unnecessary fouls outside his area and conceded in the 15th minute from a free-kick, Everton fought back and had the lead going into the last quarter of an hour. VAR, Mason and another scandalous officiating decision will be blamed for costing them that win but for the defeat they can blame only themselves.

Silva had answered fervent Evertonian hopes and retained all of the side from the win over West Ham as he was able — the one enforced change came in the form of Mason Holgate for the injured Yerry Mina — but over the course of the game, thanks to injury to Bernard and the manager’s substitutions, this gradually reverted into a very familiar Everton setup to the one that had under-achieved prior to last weekend.

The start was uneventful from both sides, with Brighton testing the foot-speed of Everton’s centre-halves early on with balls whipped over the top or down the channels, a challenge that Holgate in particular met well. Neal Maupay had lashed an early effort high over Pickford’s bar from the angle but the hosts weren’t really threatening until they were gifted an opportunity to score the opener by Gomes.

The Portuguese was cited as a liability outside his own box in last week’s match report and he proved to be so again after Tom Davies was nearly caught trying to dribble his way forward, Gomes couldn’t control his stabbed pass forward and in trying to retrieve the situation, lazily tripped Aaron Connolly a couple of yards shy of the 18-yard line.

Pascal Gross sized up the resulting direct free kick and hammered his shot past the partially ducking head of Richarlison and off the fingertips of Pickford who had initially made a move in the other direction.

The prospects of Everton being be able to recover from a losing position to win under Silva for the first time were boosted just five minutes later from a corner on the Blues’ left. Digne swept it in, Richarlison and Andy Webster challenged for it and the ball flew inside Mat Ryan’s near post. The Brazil international took the plaudits but the defender was eventually charged with an own goal.

That energised Everton and they pushed for a second, with Bernard combining with Richarlison a few minutes later where the latter drove into the box and crossed low for Walcott but the winger’s control was poor and the goalkeeper was able to block his eventual shot.

The momentum they were trying to gather was checked soon afterwards, however, when Bernard was lost to injury. Not known for traction in his boots at the best of times, the Brazilian slipped awkwardly on the wet pitch after half an hour and went down gesticulating in agony for the trainer. We can only hope it’s not that serious but it bore all the hallmarks of an ACL or medial knee ligament injury and he was replaced with the much-maligned Gylfi Sigurdsson.

The Icelander had a pop from distance shortly after coming on but his left-footed effort bounced through to Ryan before Richarlison turned Lewis Dunk superbly down the right flank and ultimately cut the ball back for Walcott but the winger’s shot was blocked well by the Brighton defender. Everton kept the ball and Iwobi’s shot took a heavy deflection off Webster and almost sneaked inside the near post before the keeper reacted to make the save.

Iwobi was also the recipient of the ball at the end of a short corner routine but his attempted curler drifted just wide of the upright as the Blues finished the half on the front foot.

The second half action initially moved back and forth between both ends. Steven Alzate despatched a shot over the bar after cutting inside for Brighton while Iwobi tested Ryan with powerful left-footer from 25 yards but, unfortunately, his effort was straight at the keeper.

Meanwhile, an incident that would become a huge bone of contention in light of the VAR controversy to come, either went unchecked or dismissed by Mason miles away in Stockley Park. Shown to be clearly held as an Everton corner came in from the right, Richarlison went down under the overly-physical attentions of Dunk and took a boot to the head for his troubles but nothing was given. Of course, it didn’t help his case that he also appeared to go to ground too easily and that will continue to go against him.

Brighton had a goal chalked off for offside and Pickford fisted a deep cross away as Silva prepared a double change to bring Calvert-Lewin and Delph on for Iwobi and Walcott. On its face, it appeared a strange decision to once again sacrifice the Nigerian’s superior movement and ideas but Silva was seemingly vindicated in that change at least when the striker put Everton ahead just two minutes later.

Holgate enjoyed a rare foray forward, slipped a beautifully-weighted ball through the home defence that drew Ryan off his line and Calvert-Lewin expertly stroked a left-footed finish past the keeper and in from the angle.

That could have been that but VAR would rear its had just five minutes after that. Connolly went down in a heap after an apparently innocuous coming together with Keane in the the Blues’ box and referee Andy Madley, who had otherwise been terrible for most of the match, rightly took no action. Following word in his ear-piece that the incident was being reviewed, however, the official made the dreaded square “TV” signal with his hands and awarded a penalty to Brighton, to the incredulity of Silva and his players. Replays would show that Keane accidentally stood on Connolly’s foot while both players had their eyes on a ball the attacker was never going to win.

Maupay took responsibility for the spot-kick, drove it confidently down the middle and the match turned back in the home side’s favour because Everton went to pieces. Brighton, who had attacked at times with zip and purpose under the stewardship of their enterprising new manager, Graham Potter, upped the tempo and went for the jugular, slicing through Everton’s exposed shape in the closing stages.

Alzate was played in on one such attack but shot straight at Pickford and Maupay was chopped down by a late sliding tackle by Holgate that earned the defender a booking, Pickford beating Dunk’s driven free-kick away awkwardly before snatching up Trossard’s shot from the rebound.

As Everton pushed for a winner at one end, however, they were caught out badly on the counter-attack at the other. Sigurdsson’s cross was too close to the keeper who caught the delivery and set the hosts on their way to a fast-breaking move that carved through the visitors’ exposed midfield and ended with Dan Burn finding Trossard overlapping on the left and Digne turning the ball into his own net trying to intercept the Belgian’s cross.

Even for a fanbase so accustomed to the pain of defeat, this was a hard one for the travelling Blues to come to terms with as, led by Holgate, just three of their team made their way disconsolately to the away end after the final whistle to thank them for their support.

The burning injustice of VAR will linger and it will be no doubt be held up by Silva as the reason for yet another away defeat and also protect his job for another few days at least. But the match exposed problems with Everton’s shape, their fragile psyche and a manager who continues to err on the side of caution and players with supposed experience like Sigurdsson and Delph rather than preserve the formula of pace, exuberance and quick movement that helped defeat West Ham a week ago.

Those latter qualities were ultimately deployed against him by Potter whose side looked unlikely winners and there for the taking at 2-1 but who rallied after being gifted a route back into the game and took advantage of some wide open lines to grab a late winner. It was they and not Everton who came back from a goal down to win.

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Reader Comments (104)

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Dave Williams
1 Posted 27/10/2019 at 09:41:22
Excellent report. The last bit mentioning pace,exuberance and quick movement is so true and it worries me that by not promoting at least one of Gibson or Feeney to a place on the bench yesterday, and continuing to do likewise with the likes of Adeniran and Gordon we will gain a reputation for ignoring our young talent and we will lose them for a pittance as seems possible with Gibson.

Siggy is out of form- period. His goal last week does not change that and his entrance yesterday only served to slow down our tempo especially once Iwobi was subbed.

Silva has still not realised that he cannot build around Siggy and Schneiderlin and it may just be worth giving a young guy the chance to show how he can help. Not wholesale introductions but they may just surprise him.

The absence of grit and guts has been alarming for a while and the players should be ashamed if only three went to the crowd at the end.

Bright spot? DCL scored another goal which was well taken and Holgate did well.

My final thought- if the RS were 16th and we were top, after the events of last season would they stick with a manager who seems pretty much lost imo?
Steve Hogan
2 Posted 27/10/2019 at 09:49:38
Sooner or later, Brands and the Board will HAVE to make THAT decision. Are we simply delaying the inevitable, or do the vast majority of fans really believe that Silva can effectively 'turn things around HK Mark 1 style' or has he simply been found out, given his past record at other Premier league clubs.

History tells us we have to cut loose, I simply don't believe he is going to put us on the path we want to be on (given the financial support he has had). Can you honestly see him making a genuine attempt on the top four in two season's time?

Ken Kneale
3 Posted 27/10/2019 at 09:51:11
Dave - a thoughtful and insightful final comment/question you pose.. The obvious answer is "NO". We have a serial loser of a manager who has built a team in his own image and a club hierarchy without the acumen and knowledge to bring the club back to glory. We have become irrelevant in football terms except to our own fans. It is a disgrace.
Jim Burns
4 Posted 27/10/2019 at 09:56:03
I was one of the unfortunates to have travelled yesterday - as soon as their free kick went in it was written. (Gomes why?)

Silva is turning decent players - who have proved they have what it takes to play and win - into hesitant average performers away from home. bereft of belief and confidence.

There is no doubt in my mind now - 9 games in- he lacks the skill to motivate and lead.

Wet, disconsolate and angry - I'll not be travelling away again this season until this ditherer is gone.

Lyndon - your summary is spot on in every respect as usual.
Jim Wilson
5 Posted 27/10/2019 at 10:09:56
Until we appoint a top class manager this misery will continue on an endless loop.

What Silva needed to do from the start was get the team organised and make us hard to beat. He has failed miserably and we are easy to beat.

The signings have made us worse and it was criminal to let Jags go before securing a replacement. It was Jags who settled the team down last season when we were on that horrendous run of form.

The only thing to do now is bring in Mourinho who will get us organised and will win more games than Silva for sure. It would be an appointment Kopites would fear and we would at last have a big personality to rival our neighbours' manager. He would get our club buzzing right from the off. It is a no-brainer.

Kevin Molloy
6 Posted 27/10/2019 at 10:58:54
I could tell within five minutes of yesterday's game that for whatever reason, Gomes did not want to know. I've never seen a player not want the ball as much as him I just don't understand it. All the talent in the world, and doesn't want to boss the game against the likes of Brighton. He was close to shocking yesterday. The bigger question, why are we labouring with this useless turkey at the helm? are we really going to wait til December and then give the new guy the fixture list from hell? if we do, the chance of relegation this year, is bloody high. there are absolutely no fall guys in this league, but if I'm wrong we've already played them anyway and come away with nowt
Frank Sheppard
7 Posted 27/10/2019 at 11:10:43
He is a poor manager, and an unlucky manager, time he was somebody’s else’s problem. I can see no available alternative/replacement but I can’t see any an.other doing worse.
Brian Harrison
8 Posted 27/10/2019 at 11:27:33
I was in favour of VAR as I thought it might produce a level playing field which would stop referees deciding every 50/50 decision always go to the bigger clubs. Seeing how well VAR was implemented in the World Cup gave me even more belief that it was a good thing. But I forgot to take into account that FIFA quite rightly decided no English official would officiate at the World Cup as they were deemed not good enough. So we shouldnt be surprised that our inept officials have made VAR a laughing stock. I wonder if the Spanish,German and Italian leagues are having the same problem, I don't know.

But we understood that VAR would only be used to correct clear and obvious mistakes by the officials. But what has become clear under the guidance of Mike Riley who was an awful referee, but is now in charge of match officials, that this original remit of clear and obvious mistakes is anything but clear and obvious. When some decisions are taking up to 7 minutes for the muppet at Stokely Park to adjudicate then it neither clear or obvious to take that long.

So why is Riley allowed to bring his own set of rules in to play, and when are these people ever going to be scrutinized for the decisions they make supposedly for the good of the game. I have never seen any interview with Riley regarding what the VAR official would and wouldnt be looking at. Whose idea was it to put monitors at the side of the pitch yet as far as I am aware no referee has ever gone to the monitor to review the decision. When VAR gets involved the customer ie us fans are not allowed to see what the VAR official is looking at. So how come when they have a similar review system in rugby,cricket or tennis the customer is allowed to see what they are reviewing so why not football fans.

So the match official is told by the VAR official what he is checking, but isn't allowed to see the review for himself so has no imput into the review decision. Yet yesterday in the Rugby the referee Nigel Owens went to the video referee on a couple of occasions and what they were reviewing was up on the big screen for everybody to see. Also everybody could hear the conversation between the Referee and the adjudicator looking at the incident and between them they came to a decision.

I am afraid that unless that VAR is only used as an advisory tool to assist the referee then its days are numbered. For me the system should allow a VAR official to contact the referee to say you may want to look at this incident. Then the referee goes over to the pitch side monitor to check and what he is looking at should also be displayed on the big screen. But ultimately the on field referee makes the final decision.

James Newcombe
9 Posted 27/10/2019 at 11:33:04
Brighton, Burnley, Aston Villa, Bournemouth and Sheffield United have all beaten us this season. That’s not the form of a team that is going anywhere but downwards. The fact that we -finally- got some financial clout, but have gone sharply backwards is Everton all over. I’m convinced this club has been cursed.
Tony Everan
10 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:11:43
We may as well give up and go home, what a fucking joke.

The VAR referee Lee Mason has decided the result a game of football on a very dubious decision.

The first pen this season given against the refs decision so you think it would be 100% clear cut.

It was clear and obvious that it was not ''clear and obvious''.

Lee Mason VAR ref should apologise and should step down. If not he should be put on gardening leave.

Its been almost good for offsides , but decisions like this are just a case very debatable opinion. It renders VAR useless in these instances and menace to the essence of football.

What a waste of time and money for our fabulous travelling supporters.

PS Any news on why VAR wasnt used for Richarlison's shirt getting tugged and being manhandled to the ground ?

Or any news why Mina's header was ruled out last week ?

Mark Guglielmo
11 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:33:37
Maybe I'm the only one, but this is my personal interpretation of when things went horribly wrong yesterday.

The beginning of the end started the moment Gylfi Sigurdsson stepped on the pitch at 30.’

Yes we still controlled the majority of play to see out the first half, and Gylfi had what, 2 touches, 1 shot before going even more invisible than ever? If that’s even possible. Moving Iwobi out wide to accommodate him ruined what little cohesiveness and flow the midfield had left. So now to start the second half, Iwobi had little to do with much play, Gylfi assumed his role as the do-nothing guy, and we were back to having a giant, gaping patch of space in the middle of the park. Potter very astutely realized this and brought Trossard on to utterly demonize us and take advantage of that error for the final 30’

I’m not saying the outcome would have changed because I can’t possibly know that, but a simple Kean on for Bernard and assuming the center forward spot with Richy moving wide left where he loves to play, leaving Iwobi in the middle, surely would have produced a better outcome, no?

Then bringing Delph on for Davies (which should actually have been for Gomes) makes sense, as does DCL for Walcott, and we get a formation that looks like this:

Sidibe Keane Holgate Digne
Davies Iwobi Delph
DCL Kean Richarlison (or whatever combo you want up top)

DCL and Davies and Delph are all smart enough and get around the pitch well, and IMO would never have left Sidibe out to dry like that. Besides Holgate’s beautiful pass to DCL, can anyone point to another decent run of form in the entire 2nd half? Hard to do so when you’re playing a man down. I’m 99% sure we don’t lose that game. Lots and lots wrong with the match, but to me it all began when Gylfi came on at 30’

Curious if I'm alone in this thinking.

Mark Guglielmo
12 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:42:14
Tony @10, it's ridiculous that they never ever use the sideline monitor! All the other leagues do, with much better consistency and results. Lee Mason may suck, but the final ruling always comes down to the on field ref. VAR can encourage him but it's still the in-game ref's decision. At that point any human with a brain could see the accidental contact and not award the pen.

And then that maddening inconsistency you mentioned. Why did Mason not whisper in the ref's ear to let him know he completely missed what should have been an awarded penalty to Richy?

Forget the Mina thing. The moment he blew the whistle VAR is removed from the picture. Not sure if you're interested or not, but ESPN did a very thorough write-up on how VAR is supposed to be used in the EPL:


Rob Hooton
13 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:43:08
I never wanted VAR and never believed the corrupt PL would implement it fairly - decisions will still be in favour of the media darlings as they are in full control of what you can see on your screen! It has caused more bad than good so far this season and is ruining a game that is less enjoyable anyway with all of the shite that goes on in the game.

For a few years now I’ve said that I’m done with football but my passion for all things Everton always pulls me back - I really think I am close to giving it up now though especially as I also love rugby and that is at least still played in the right spirit and is less morally corrupt than the grotesque PL.

Oh, Silva out too - the substitutions yesterday were obscene (despite DCL scoring) and the guy is a loser

Christopher Timmins
14 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:44:41
Mark 11 Gylfi is a problem and I can't see how we can continue to effectively build a team around him.

On a lesser issue is there anyone else out there sick and tired of Richarlison throwing himself to the ground as if he had been shot. He should have had a penalty as he was pulled but the way he goes to ground does him no favours.

Rob Hooton
15 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:50:12
Christopher you have hit the nail on the head - due to all of his play acting he is not going to be given much, all I can think when I see him doing it is “get up you prick” and I don’t like him just because of this. Yet another reason to switch off from the game
Sean Patton
16 Posted 27/10/2019 at 12:56:41

No pal there hasn't been an explanation and there won't be because these officials can do as they please. I still think VAR is good in principle but these utter idiots can't or rather won't apply it correctly and fairly.

Apparently Mason has awarded more penalties against Everton than any referee post war, just another day on the Everton rollercoaster.

Trevor Peers
17 Posted 27/10/2019 at 13:16:40
Silva's latest scapegoat Sigurdsson eh Mark #11.

You must of watched a different game to me, as i wrote after the game last night 'Silva's brave new world of 4-3-3 looked sadly out of touch as the usual fault line of midfield incompetence took hold of this match straight from the kick off. Brighton where pouring through the middle and it was no surprise when they took the lead'.

We were already a goal down when Siggy came on, Silva had took the fans advice and stuck to the same team but we didn't have a shot to speak of during that first 30 minutes, the fact is we just don't have or Silva can't get the right attitude out of the players available, whatever formation he picks away from home, but for some there always has to be a scapegoat.

Sigurdsson has been awful, but don't be ridiculous and suggest it's his fault we keep losing. Bernard, Gomes and Iwobi were annoymous early on and I thought Iwobi did a bit better on the wing once the substitution was made. He's definitely not a CM. He's far too erratic in his distribution of the ball.

Lyndon Lloyd
18 Posted 27/10/2019 at 13:32:10
Trevor (17), it was 1-1 when Sigurdsson came on and we could have been 2-1 up had Walcott not badly mis-controlled Richarlison's cross (a move Bernard was involved in) just before Bernard got injured.

Gomes didn't have a good game but Iwobi was involved in a lot of the good things we did until he was taken off whereas apart from press every now and then, have a pot-shot from 25 yards and jog back lackadaisically while Brighton attacked, Sigurdsson did very little.

Brighton showed, just as we did against West Ham, that pace, tempo and speed of thought win matches. Sigurdsson's not the sole reason why we're not winning matches but I believe he is a big factor because he is badly out of form.

Mark Guglielmo
19 Posted 27/10/2019 at 13:36:36
Trevor @17, Lyndon wrote all that needs be said. I watched the game enough to know that it was 1-1 when Gylfi came on so really everything you wrote after that was easily dismissed.

He's not my latest scapegoat by a long shot; I've felt he was a ginormous problem since last year.

Re: Iwobi being/not being a CM. You probably know better than Arsenal and Nigeria, so when you have a moment let them both know they've used him wrong this entire time.

Bobby Thomas
20 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:06:32
I think Silva seems like a decent bloke and I actually think hes a half decent manager. But this is too big for him. And its bigger than Moshiri throwing money at it and signing yet more new players.

We need a massive personality in charge that can give a rudderless club some direction and impose himself on the club, training ground and dressing room.

We need someone that can change the entire culture. That can end the loser mentality and inferiority complex that has permeated the entire club.

Trevor Peers
21 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:12:58
Silva is the problem Mark @19
Don't be making excuses for him, my mistake it was 1-1 off a corner, it was an own goal to boot.
Last year Sigurdsson scored 12 goals. I'm not defending him this season he deserves to be dropped but we are no better without him, the first half hour was shite.
Mark Guglielmo
22 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:17:39
Silva is A problem, one of many. The extent of that problem varies to each person's opinion, but to not see that Gylfi is central to our on field/gameplay problem is just stuffing a head into the sand.
Trevor Peers
23 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:21:34
I do see it Mark old boy, but the replacements are no better, especially away from home. Your not listening are you.
Michael Low
24 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:30:23
We use VAR in Canada for ice hockey games and it can work quite well provided it is used properly. The referee will use it to provide clarity if he is unclear of the infraction or whether the puck crosses the goal line. He will pause play while he consults with the video replay which shows numerous angles of the incident. The final decision is up to him and not the off ice "official". Obviously, VAR will not compensate for the incompetency of referees which appears to be a major issue in the PL. But it could be a useful tool for those refs who good. In my view taking control of the final decision away from the ref on the field and allowing someone off the field to override his decision is totally appropriate.
Ian Jones
25 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:38:56
Hi Jim @ 4, with apols, am not specifically picking up on your post, but the below para stood out...

'Silva is turning decent players - who have proved they have what it takes to play and win - into hesitant average performers away from home. bereft of belief and confidence' 

I think the above comment could be directed at any of the managers we have had of late, especially from Martinez onwards. Although we have had a large turnover of players of late, we have had decent players/squad for a few years, but no-one seems to be able to get the team to be motivated enough to put in a performance over a consistent length of time. General malaise has set in.

I think we need another root and branch sort out of the club. Could take years...

However, the sad part is, we are only 5 points off 5th with a bit more effort, luck or whatever, the season could look so different.

Mark Guglielmo
26 Posted 27/10/2019 at 14:47:42
Trevor @23 how can you say the replacements aren't doing any better when it's crystal clear they are? It's mind-boggling.

You want to put everything on Silva where I've admitted he's part of the problem while simultaneously not putting any weight on the players. It is a fact that with Sigurdsson, Morgan, Coleman & Delph NOT in the lineup we've played better football.

Evidence A:
(with them) 2-1-5 6 goals
(without them): 1-0-1 5 goals

Evidence B:
I don't need evidence B

Michael Low
27 Posted 27/10/2019 at 15:01:53
Sorry, re: auto correct. my last sentence should read "totally inappropriate"
Trevor Peers
28 Posted 27/10/2019 at 15:04:23
Mark @26 I did say AWAY from home.

Your dodgy stats don't prove a thing the fact is we've only scored 3 goals in 5 away games in the league this season. Two of them yesterday, one an own goal.
So you think that's not down to Silva's awful tactics and lack of leadership ? If Newcastle win today we will be 4th from bottom how much evidence do you need ?

Mark Guglielmo
29 Posted 27/10/2019 at 15:56:49
Apologies then Trevor, I did miss the "away" part. But for the 132nd time, just because I lay blame at the feet of some of the players - mostly Gylfi - that doesn't mean I'm excusing Silva. Not by a long shout.

Hey Newcastle only tied!

Terry Farrell
30 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:01:54
Bobby do you mean a big personality like someone who has captained Holland played for Barcelona and won champions league and steered a low profile club to 6th in the PL?
John Audsley
31 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:02:34
Gomes cannot play in wet weather, fuck knows why but he cant.

Yesterday was a disaster and the lack of heart and belief in the players is a hole that gets bigger by the game.

What the fuck are we doing as a club?

Tony Hill
32 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:11:25
Bobby @20, I agree entirely. But I don’t think it’s going to happen for us. It’s too late and the weight we carry is too heavy.

Pessimistic, I know, but I looked at our players yesterday and I realised finally that they’re just not good enough or strong enough. That’s been the case for an awfully long time, apart from the odd brief interval. I salute those who retain their optimism but my hopes for any serious progress at the club are gone.

The names we’re throwing about as the possible new manager will make no serious difference.

John Pierce
33 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:15:58
Mark 11. I’m in almost total agreement with you. I was pretty vocal both in game and post game the moment it all went sideways was the Siggy sub. I was looking from the POV of Iwobi, selected head of the Icelander, to then be marginalized sent the wrong message. Moreover if Siggy is that inflexible positionally then it was absolutely the wrong sub. Iwobi was the only one, perhaps Sidibe too, who carried on from last week. His movement puts others to shame. On the was he left isolated and carrying Siggy just left us with no penetration. What pace and tempo we had were stymied by the slow ball.
So players like Walcott just vanish, their game predicated on instinct, which isn’t suited to ponderous build up.

That substitution was on the manager and smacked of a safe, conservative move. Just another mistake on his charge sheet which is as long as my arm.

Silva is not for me. The end cannot come soon enough.

John Pierce
34 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:17:05
Lyndon, I love the headline ‘VAR finally comes for Everton’ my only surprise was it wasn’t in the Anfield derby. Worse to come one expects.
Paul Birmingham
35 Posted 27/10/2019 at 16:29:31
John@ 34, I agree, no doubt it will happen, when we play again at our old ground.

Mark Guglielmo
36 Posted 27/10/2019 at 17:19:14
Exactly John @33. I have no idea where I wrote it but one of what I believed to be the keys to our loss was Silva's once again terrible substitutions, only really it was the Gylfi one. Delph looked like a bad sub in context but could have been smart had the attack not been torpedoed 1/2 hour earlier.

How much do you think Kean was salivating when he saw a forward sub was going to need to be made? Drives me batty that a vocal minority are seeing fit to put any blame at all on the kid (not for yesterday, but for his signing, period).

Jim Bennings
38 Posted 27/10/2019 at 17:51:54
I’ve noticed a very familiar pattern with most of our players.

It’s one good game then six shockers.

Gomes, amazing one week, all the talent in the world, then for five or six games he plays like Claus Thomsen.

Richarlison plays souped up one week then follows up with disinterested performances.

Lucas Digne has played poorly this season and nowhere near his standards last season.

Pickford, I would have dropped him after that bollock at Anfield last season, I certainly would have dropped him after the 6-2 hiding by Spurs, and the Newcastle match at St James Park would have been the very last straw for me, the guy knows he’s untouchable.

We have too many players sitting in the comfort zone.

Peter Neilson
39 Posted 27/10/2019 at 18:04:42
Jim (38) I think it’s just too nice an environment with the bar set too low for what’s acceptable and little pressure to perform any higher. So when standards drop even slightly we have a shocking run like this. Not just a problem under Silva, been there for a while. It’s a club mentality/Finch Farm issue.
Peter Neilson
40 Posted 27/10/2019 at 18:08:03
For nice maybe comfortable is a better word.
Bobby Thomas
41 Posted 27/10/2019 at 18:56:35
Terry @30

Thought Koeman may get raised, although he certainly isn't what I described in my initial post.

Koeman was a detached, cold fish, who gave the impression that he didn't want to be here and was merely passing through for 3 years - on his way to better things - via the golf course.

His management record was/is patchy and I feel that at Southampton he may have benefitted from working under the recruitment set up headed by Les Reed.

One of the reasons Koeman had a phenomenal playing career is that he was very strong mentally. He didn't really need a great deal of input from managers, he took care of himself. One of his weaknesses as a manager is that expects that same level of self sufficiency from his players.

Michael Ball played for him at PSV. He said that when things are going well Koemans great. But when things are going wrong then he can't relate to players or lift them when they need it. He's a decent manager, no more than that. He got the Everton job because he's called Ronald Koeman.

Everton needs a talisman. Someone that is going to live it and breathe it. That can get the club by the scruff of the neck and make his presence felt in all corners of it. Who's personality is stamped all over his team and transmits itself to it. That can light a fire under the club and fanbase and confront the loser mentality that has become the default setting.

If your wondering who I think that may be, I want Bielsa.

Terry Farrell
43 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:01:02
Bobby that's a decent response. He was a cold fish but he is a legend who commands respect and has turned Netherlands around. He will manage Barcelona one day - probably! I thought he needed more time and more importantly a goal scorer.
Clive Rogers
44 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:19:49
Although we had some bad luck with a penalty that has not been a penalty since football started, yesterday was a very poor performance against a very poor team. So many passes over hit for goal kicks from attacking positions.

Sigurdsson looks finished, his legs have gone. Walcott also has gone. He had three good chances yesterday and turned them into half chances through poor control. Pickford is vastly overrated especially by himself. Sidibe is no better than Coleman. Iwobi loses the ball far too often. Digne is off form and Keane too slow turning. Gomes poor.

After the December program we will be in a relegation fight at this rate. We are using up our “easy games”.

Jim Bennings
45 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:24:56
The away form has now become the same psychological barrier that existed mainly away to the top six for years, it’s now just away from home full stop.

We look scared, we never take the game by the scruff of the neck, we never assert ourselves quick enough, when is the last time we actually scored the first goal in an away league game?

I think we have won 8 from the last 51 away matches going back to Koeman’s first season in charge.

Our December fixture list, well starting with Leicester on November 30th, is pure evil.

If this Everton team wins at Anfield I’ll walk the streets butt naked until Christmas Eve, or at least until I’m hauled in by the chestnuts.

Tony Hill
46 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:38:37
Bobby, the board couldn’t tolerate the sort of personality you’re speaking of. It would shatter into a thousand pieces the family club and golden hearted Everton image we’ve traded on in the absence of trophies.

Imagine the Professor and Brands if Bielsa turned up in his trackie to some gig.

It’s cosy at the top and they’ve cemented themselves in.

Mark Guglielmo
47 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:39:37
Clive @44 "Sigurdsson looks finished, his legs have gone" - I had no idea Icelandic cod had legs to begin with.

Blaming Iwobi & Sidibe is utterly foolish though, they bring so much more to the table than either Gylfi or Coleman. Everyone was all over how great Gomes was last week, and then of course he went out a laid an egg yesterday. Keane & Pickford can go out with Wednesday's trash as far as I'm concerned.

Mark Guglielmo
48 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:42:43
Bielsa? *scratches head*


Joe McMahon
49 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:56:41
Tony @46, spot on. Many want David Unsworth or Moyes to be our manager, because they are one of us. If you look at the Club top of the pile, no ex player is part of thier coaching set up, and Arteta and Pep never played for City.
Ray Jacques
50 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:57:22
Tony @ 46, I don't want Bielsa but your observation about the Everton hierarchy is I feel spot on.

Imagine a Klopp type character coming into our shambles of a club and telling them how it needs to be. They would wet themselves, what about EITC, People's Club, plucky Everton we are nice people they would cry, its not about winning, its about being nice and cosy.

Appoint a proper manager who knows how to win FFS or one season we will slip up and go down.

Seb Niemand
51 Posted 27/10/2019 at 19:59:54
Joe @49, I think the only reasons people talk about Moyes or Unsworth in connection with the job is that they are the devils we know and the there is so little trust in the club being able to avoid appointing the next bright, pretty, unproven young manager they come across that it's a bit of a reactionary move to look immediately at the opposite.
Jerome Shields
52 Posted 27/10/2019 at 20:03:18
Peter #39, I agree and this has brandished for years. This is the prevailing culture of the Club and Moshiri, Brands & Silva have bought into it. Who is the biggest mug of the three, Moshiri he is paying for everything.
Sam Hoare
53 Posted 27/10/2019 at 20:06:09
Jim@45 I don't think that's entirely fair. Yes the away form is abysmal of course but yesterday for 70 minutes I'd say we looked like the only team who were going to win. After DCL slotted calmly they were creating almost nothing until that calamity of a decision to award a penalty.

We cam from behind and deserved to win that match. Even their manager and players implied as much.

Yes we collapsed after their penalty and yes there are still problems but that was a game which we did for large parts take by the scruff of the neck and assert ourselves in. Confidence is a fragile thing and its a real shame that we fell victim to a VAR aberration as I believe we would have hung on to win that match and would currently be 11th above Tottenham with a little puff of wind in our sails. As it is things are grim.

Small margins. That have not gone Silva's way. And he will likely pay the price for it. But up till the VAR we were on top and no-one would have begrudged us the 3 points.

Mark Guglielmo
54 Posted 27/10/2019 at 20:17:06
Sam, we should never have been in a situation where the VAR goal made one bit of difference, though.

We dominated the first 30' but Davies (turnover) -> Gomes (terrible foul) -> Pickford (utter garbage) awarded them a goal. We should have been up, even when Bernard went off, and then the doofus-in-charge (usually a term I reserve for tRump) brought on Sigurdsson and completely ruined any semblance of flow and/or creativity.

So now, down a man, it was a sloppy mess of a game but you could see the momentum decidedly swing toward Brighton, especially once Potter brought on Trossard to take advantage of the huge hole in the center. Because we were down a man. Because Gylfi.

THEN, he makes a panic decision to bring on Delph with DCL, which wouldn't have been a panic decision when we were up, and would actually have preserved a cohesive midfield (though I would've brought on Delph for Gomes instead since his head was somewhere not on the South Coast). Yes, DCL scored a beauty, which actually should have put the game away or close to it. And then sure, VAR came into play, but the ~75 minutes before that should have made it a moot point.

The subs, primarily THE sub at 30', are what cost us that game, nothing else IMO, and that is on Silva.

Jay Tee
55 Posted 27/10/2019 at 20:39:08
I am too worn out with this current Everton setup and that since season 2 of Brown Shoes Bobby to comment much. Moshiri, just get this farce sorted out or say goodbye to the millions you have put in. Whole system is a current waste of space.
Sam Hoare
56 Posted 27/10/2019 at 20:48:45
Mark, make no mistake the VAR cost us the game. Even after those subs we were a goal up after 70 minutes and Brighton were threatening very little indeed.

We certainly did not play perfectly and perhaps we could have been more than one goal up but nonetheless that moment was huge. We lacked the resilience to dig in afterwards and I agree that Silva's subs were not helpful but up until 70 minutes and that travesty it had been a decent, not inspired but effective performance that had us heading to 3 points.

Clive Rogers
57 Posted 27/10/2019 at 21:00:31
Mark, 47, I wasn’t blaming those two in particular, it was a poor team performance. Iwobi’s quick passing is good, but in the second half he kept carrying the ball and losing it before being subbed. Sidibe’s final passes were poor, several over hit for goal kicks and he was stranded upfield a few times. The last goal came from a position he should have been defending. He seems an average player at best to me and I think Coleman will be back next game.
Mark Guglielmo
58 Posted 27/10/2019 at 23:07:46
Sam @56, I really do get where you're coming from. In the context of the game as it unfolded, it wound up being a big decision.

All I'm saying is that we would never have been in that position if the decisions and poor play of the first 3/4 of the game - save for a few good moments - is what truly did us in, IMO. Bad keeping (shock), bad fouls (shock), poor subs (shock), bad strategy & formation brought on by bad subs (shock).

Le sigh

Sam Hoare
59 Posted 28/10/2019 at 07:21:49
Mark@58, yes ultimately you don’t want to be in a position where you are relying on good luck. Or even the absence of bad luck. Ideally we’d be making our own luck.

But given that the confidence is low I’m not sure it’s fair to totally lambast that performance. Teams have played a lot worse and won. We were doing ok till VAR and lacked/lack the mental strength to recover from such setbacks.

Stan Schofield
60 Posted 28/10/2019 at 08:30:34
Similar happened last season. We were on top in many games in which bad officiating turned the course of those games against Everton. It could be random, with all clubs suffering this, but it doesn't look it. It seems clear that we have little to no luck with officiating, and that as soon as we start building a bit of momentum, it will be quickly stopped by appalling decisions by officials. That, plus the ban on Niasse a couple of seasons ago, makes the game appear corrupt and not worth watching.

Having said all that, such adverse decisions HAVE to be taken in our stride, otherwise we will never progress. It can't be easy dealing mentally with incessant bad officiating, but it has to be done. We just have to 'keep calm and carry on', otherwise we'll continue to shoot ourselves in the foot, which will only reinforce the effect of the bad officiating.

Regarding Silva, although his changes are often confusing to us, we do have a side that can dominate games. The problem is, we cannot kill games off when we're on top. This situation contrasts with pre-Silva, where too often we couldn't even dominate games, and the football was dire, let alone kill games off.

We just have to bed-in, get a grip mentally, and use what happened to motivate us to fight harder. That way, we can start creating our own luck, and if we can do that then we'll finally build momentum and move forward rather than this hamster wheel of going nowhere.

Jim Bennings
61 Posted 28/10/2019 at 08:43:33
I can understand where everyone is coming from regarding VAR, although we can’t blame it for some of the truly horrendous results we’ve witnessed this last 12 months.

With VAR, let me just get this clear quickly, I despise it, it’s completely ripping the heart and soul out of football, the instant jubilation and ecstasy of celebration after a goal has gone now while we check EVERY single goal to make sure it was a ball that hit the net and not a meteorite.

I assume it was brought in to take human error of judgement out of the game, made by our already woeful standard of officiating in this country.

But the fact is, the final decision is still made by a the human eye, some bellend sitting behind a monitor screen miles away from the match itself, it’s not to the benefit of helping in the way goal line technology is.

The fact that the final decision is made by one of the already woeful referees in this country pretty much says it all, why is it being used at all?

The same biased decisions are still going the way of Liverpool, United, City ect ect and the same daylight robbery is still going on at corners, players bear hugging and nothing being done. (Davies and Richarlison both grappled by Brighton defenders on a corner neither spotted).

It’s ruined the game of football and for me now, football is on the way down in terms of overall surprise element and entertainment, it’s too scrutinised now, too stop start and is heading the way of American Football.

I hope Leicester win the league again, they won’t, but I hope they do, another two fingers up to the Sky and BT babies.

The worst of all, VAR is overtaking the more pressing concerns that we have here at Everton Football Club.

Ray Jacques
62 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:00:13
Let's blame VAR for us not beating Palace, Bournemouth, Sheffield Utd, Burnley, Aston Villa...

It went against us on Saturday, but bloody hell — what about the farce of a season in the other games?

My concern is that we repeat the same mistakes weekly such as not defending set-pieces, goalkeeping errors, poor retention of the ball, no pressing the opposition, full-backs exposed, give away cheap free-kicks in dangerous positions, etc, etc.

If I could see improvements in any of the above, then let's carry on as we are, but I do not. I really want Silva to succeed but it ain't going to happen... see lack of change in the above paragraph as the evidence.

Rob Halligan
63 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:10:13
Jim fully understand what you're saying, but for me football has been on the way down years before VAR due to sky / BT sport. Football is no longer a sport as we used to know it, but a business. Clubs are afraid of relegation as they eventually lose the sky / BT sport money once the parachute payments end, assuming they don't get promotion. Clubs would rather finish top four than win a trophy due to the amount of money given in the champions league.

Take the FA and league cup for example. Clubs make massive changes in these games for fear of injury to their more established players, and missing games, which could cost them points. I don't know the team Watford put out on Saturday, but you can bet they will make massive changes for tomorrow night.

So yes, for me football has been on the way down years before VAR.

Mal van Schaick
64 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:16:43
When we went 2-1 up with Calvert Lewin scoring, I thought we would of won the game. Keane was unlucky in giving the penalty away but that’s var take it or leave it. I thought that our midfielders tired in the last 20 minutes with Gomes and Davies out on their feet. We were over run in midfield and Sidibe was caught out by good wing play that won Brighton the game. Bernard getting injured didn’t help, but tactically the manager has to take the responsibility. When we 2-1 up Silva should of closed their midfield down by getting more players behind the ball, but we continued to play an open game and paid the price.
Martin Mason
65 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:20:16
we are actually a bottom half of the table side that will do well one week (mainly at home), lose most away games and never beat the top sides. We are significantly below the level of sides like Palace and Leicester and we will be lucky to stay away from the relegation zone. We have some over priced and overrated players who are like a cancer in the club and my opinion is that we need to put them out to grass and start introducing young players who have the heart for the game. United and Chelsea have realised that this is the only way in the modern era and are blooding in young players gradually and it is working, they are good lads and only need the chance.

Watching the England vs NZ rugby game Saturday made me realize how shallow modern football is with real athletes taking and giving big hits with no writhing on the floor in feigned agony.

Jim Bennings
66 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:27:20
Over the last 10 years or so it’s become all about being a business yes.

I feel sorry for any kids who are just start to follow the game now because they’ll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

I can gladly say I started watching it when it was purely about that, football, and each team went on the pitch to win, the objective was to win something either a cup or the league, none of all this tactical scrutiny and why this or that has happened, just purely about 11 men on each side and a ball on the green grass.

It’s a simple game that over the years has been over scrutinised and tried to become a stylish sport with all this technology and wizardry ideas that taken the joy from it.

I’d say it’s last hurrah was maybe the early 2000’s when it still had that oomph and the entire league wasn’t solely reliant on mega millions.

Brian Harrison
67 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:44:46
We know that Moshiri has acted very quickly when we fall into the bottom half of the league, so if results go against us we could be in the bottom 3 before we play Spurs at home, so I think Silva is on borrowed time. But the last couple of times he has sacked managers, he hasnt had anybody to step into the job, but being where we are in the league he cant afford not to have a replacement ready.

I know many posters have suggested different options, I know some have suggested Benitez, personally I don't want him, but I don't believe Moshiri will want to spend the vast amount of money it would take to get him out of his present contract. So I think he might make a short term appointment maybe till the end of the season, a bit like the Allardyce appointment everybody knew he would be gone at the end of the season.

So if he does go down that route he has to hire someone not under contract at a club or appoint from within. Seeing he pulled the plug on Unsworth last time I don't believe he will promote him. So that basically leaves him with few options, yes Mourhino is out of contract but there is no way he would consider the Everton job. So I fully expect Moyes to be appointed. I know many don't want that but I don't see many alternatives out there should he fire Silva.

Sam Hoare
68 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:46:31
Martin "We are significantly below the level of sides like Palace and Leicester and we will be lucky to stay away from the relegation zone"

Sorry but two thirds of that sentence is rubbish. We are not a significant level below Palace and we will not be lucky not to be relegated.

People were banging the similar gloom drum last year and we ended up 8th, a long way from relegation. If there was no VAR and we'd won yesterday we'd be 2 points behind Palace. As it is the gap is only 5 and I'd still bet you we finish above them even if Silva is in charge all season.

Martin Mason
69 Posted 28/10/2019 at 09:56:19
Sam, it's like being an alcoholic. The difficult thing is the denial phase and the acceptance of reality. Of course we may improve but having had the opportunity to see all of the teams in action I reckon my description of Everton's place in the overall scheme of things is about right. We're very good at false dawns though but that doesn't collect any points. I hope I'm wrong of course but even for me it's difficult to see positives.
Jerome Shields
70 Posted 28/10/2019 at 10:03:03
Alot on ToffeeWeb think Everton are going to produce a Manager from a hat, who is going to turn things around.

Silva was the only candidate who was willing to take the job, he was unemployed at the time. Pelligrini wasn't contacted.

After two more years how many Candidates do you think their will be for the job this time? Maybe someone will take a punt if the wages are big enough and a big transfer budget available. How many players will want to join his project ?

That's what you get with a badly managed Club.

Brian Harrison
71 Posted 28/10/2019 at 10:31:06

I desperately hope you are right and Martin is wrong, but last year we had a lot harder games in our first 10 games than we have had this season. I fear what impact Saturdays game will have on the team, they were on for all 3 points with 15 minutes left and ended up with nothing. Yes the VAR decision was terrible but to go on and concede again was unforgivable.

With a lot harder set of fixtures to come in our next 10 games I really worry as to were we will pick up the points needed to move us back into the top half of the league.

Franny Porter
72 Posted 28/10/2019 at 10:46:49
Shames me to say it but Id have Moyes back tomorrow.
Mark Guglielmo
73 Posted 28/10/2019 at 12:11:57
Sam @59, yes sir, cannot argue that.

Stan @60, there's so much right about what you wrote, I won't reply with anything other that you're 100% correct IMO. My only question is, because I haven't been a supporter and masochist nearly as long as many of you: have we always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to officiating like this? Seems like at least some calls should go our way.

Mark Guglielmo
74 Posted 28/10/2019 at 12:16:43
Jim @61, the final decision is not made by the VAR ref. They can't.
Mark Guglielmo
75 Posted 28/10/2019 at 12:19:08
Mal @64, that's what happens when you bring Gylfi on and expect him to do anything. The midfield is left wide open, outnumbered, exposed, and susceptible to what we saw on Saturday.
Mark Guglielmo
76 Posted 28/10/2019 at 12:26:23
Brian @71 (last reply sorry guys! It's not letting me edit for some reason)

But did we really have a more difficult start last season?

West Ham Utd
Crystal Palace
Man Utd

Alexander Murphy
77 Posted 28/10/2019 at 12:33:20
Mark, I have reviewed your comment @74.

Incorrect. VAR awards a penalty to Brighton.

No appeal.

Decision Final.

Mark Quinn
78 Posted 28/10/2019 at 13:42:12
Liverpool: Intensity, passion, direction, unity, pace, hunger, desire, excellent manager.

Everton: none of the aforementioned.

Frank McGregor
79 Posted 28/10/2019 at 14:02:36
Mark #74,

I agree 100% the Liverpool players look stronger, fitter, willing to chase everything. Most of all they have the ability to pass the ball directly to each other.

Everton lack energy, fitness, and have no stomach to fight they look weary and weak. Everton are incapable of retaining possession and breaking the opposition down.

Mike Benjamin
80 Posted 28/10/2019 at 14:30:18
It has come to something when not only do I await with dread the name of the referee but also who is in charge of VAR for the game. Lee Mason is one of the worst referees when he is on the pitch, so why should he be any different when he is in the VAR seat?
Rob Marsh
81 Posted 28/10/2019 at 14:35:00
Jim Wilson # 5,

Jose will then turn to Mr Moshiri and say: "Give me another £400M to spend!"

You can forget the "special one" — we have a stadium to build; whoever comes in will be on a budget.

Dave Abrahams
82 Posted 28/10/2019 at 14:39:35
Mark (78), I think, to be honest, they've got bags of passion, but they save it for when they get home... some of the players' wives must be absolutely knackered.
Jim Wilson
83 Posted 28/10/2019 at 14:52:59
Rob Marsh – I'm not saying you are wrong but until we get a top manager in place a new stadium and all the money in the world will not help us.

Better to have an old ground, no money and have a great manager than all the facilities and money going and a shit or average manager.

Having the right man in charge is everything and the club must move heaven and earth to find him.

We are in the relegation zone after a quarter of the season and having played in the main games an average team should win.

We haven't won anything for years, we haven't won at Anfield for years and there is no sign that we will in the near future. Long-term, our support will suffer because of the massive gap between Everton and Liverpool.

What the hell should we be doing? One thing for sure: keeping Silva or sounding out Moyes is a suicide mission!

Rob Marsh
84 Posted 28/10/2019 at 15:27:37
Jim # 83

I completely agree with what you've said, we need to be a winning football club again, a new stadium will not guarantee that.

Unfortunately, that's not the way those who matter at EFC think, they've got their eyes on a shiny new stadium and it well take first call over all other expenses.

I think the Morinho and Guardiola types just won't be a good fit for us at the moment (because of the above).

Here goes, there's a Spaniard in China at the moment who, I feel sure, if we offered him a nice bowl of Scouse and a new challenge, he would rise to it and not be quite as demanding as Jose. I'm so desperate I'm prepared to forgive any banter or rib-tickling from the past to have some success. He should be a serious target for us.

Mark Guglielmo
85 Posted 28/10/2019 at 15:36:11
Alexander @74

VAR DOES NOT MAKE THE DECISION. The on field ref does. Madley chose NOT to check again after Mason declared it a foul. By omission, Madley then granted VAR the ability to make the ruling.

Your decision may be final, but your decision only shows that you don't understand VAR.

John Raftery
86 Posted 28/10/2019 at 15:54:48
From several years ago, when people started banging the drum about using technology, many were opposed unless the decision could be made instantly as in the use of goal-line technology. What we have now got is pure meddling with officials making interpretations up as they go along. As one national newspaper reporter said in the opening sentence of his match report ‘If this represents the future of the game, we are in dangerous territory'. The decision certainly changed the course of this game.

Once Brighton had scored from the penalty, it seemed we were caught between two objectives: settling for the draw or chasing the win. We lost all coherence with our players all over the place for the winning goal. A more pragmatic manager would have given clear instructions to shut up shop, take the sting out of the game, and take the point. Of course, fans don't really want pragmatic managers.

I still think we are generally in better shape than we were this time two years ago but we do now badly need to put a few back to back results together. Teams are being gifted goals while we have to work hard for every chance and goal. The defending (and goalkeeping) at free-kicks is abysmal. Sorting out the positioning of the wall and keeper would have prevented two goals in the past four weeks. Surely not beyond the capabilities of Silva, his staff and our ‘international class' players?

We badly need to increase the pace and power of our midfield play. Sigurdsson can no longer be accommodated. Gomes is also a big problem, especially away from Goodison. Apart from last season's derby at Anfield and our 2-0 win at West Ham in March, he has been a nonentity in most of the away games and awful in some of them. He looked like a double decker bus on Saturday chugging backwards and forwards while a fleet of blue and white striped sports cars danced around him. He appears to lack the pace and fitness levels required in the Premier League.

Tony Abrahams
87 Posted 28/10/2019 at 15:56:09
And neither does Madley, if he allowed that decision to be over-ruled without checking it for himself?

Can the ref check the screen, or isn't that allowed in the Premier League?

John McFarlane Snr
88 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:02:33
Hi Mark [85],

As a newcomer to Everton and ToffeeWeb, you are living up to your name – you're certainly leaving your mark! I can't speak for anyone else, but not only do I not fully understand it, I have no wish to. The perfect scenario for me would be for the use of VAR to be abandoned. I don't know your age but I would hazard a guess that you have been reared on VAR.

Rob Halligan
89 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:02:57
Tony, on Ref Watch this morning, they were saying the touchline monitor is available to use, and they questioned why it wasn't being used? I definitely remember it being used two years ago in the FA Cup when Liverpool got beat at home by West Brom, so why isn't it being used now?
Mark Guglielmo
90 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:07:46
Hey John @88, more a newcomer to TW than to Everton (though compared to you guys I'm still an embryo)!

I watched loads of footy pre-VAR, but I'm typically very open to change and progress, and I have a soft spot for technology (a field I've worked in my whole life). I think what colors my perspective is that I watch a lot of football other than the Premier League, so I have a pretty solid idea of how VAR can be used successfully.

The Premier League and its fans are very resistant to this, I've noticed. But I would agree with you, it should be taken away if it isn't going to be used properly. Cheers, sir.

Tony @87... aye, therin lies the rub. Mike Riley (finally figured out his name) has instructed Premier League refs to not use the sideline booth monitors. I don't know why. But not doing so makes the VAR decision the final decision, when it shouldn't be.

Dave Abrahams
91 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:14:59
Rob (89), on another Everton website, I asked if the referees were being advised by their superiors not to use the touch line monitor, one or two seemed to think that was the case, although why would referees refuse to use something that would make things easier, and quicker for everyone involved?

John (88), I think Mark lives in America and VAR is used in a different and seemingly better way over there, maybe Mike (Gaynes), Jimmie (Crowther) and Mark could confirm this and explain the difference?

John McFarlane Snr
93 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:20:36
Hi John [86],

I feel for you and the others who have to endure the trek and suffer the disappointment. I've had my fair share down the years, initially lack of finance took its toll, latterly 'Father Time' stepped in.

John, what was the title of the book you had at the last get-together? I'm dropping hints for Christmas...

Rob Halligan
94 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:34:42
Some VAR reviews seem to take what feels like an eternity to come to a decision. Mason took 14 looks before thinking that was a penalty to Brighton. The same at Norwich yesterday by whoever was their VAR official, for the two Man Utd penalties.

A simple solution for me, would be a VAR official has 30 seconds, or five looks at the review in question. If, after 30 seconds or the five looks, he can't come to a decision, then the original decision of the on-field official stands, as clearly it cannot be a clear and obvious error by the referee.

Jim Wilson
95 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:41:55

My two doubts about Benitez are:

1. His constant team changes to the Liverpool team when he was manager there.<2>2. Taking over a team near the bottom, I'm not sure he is the type to get us battling to pull us clear.

Otherwise a good shout.

Re. Jose - surely its about powers of persuasion. Take the challenge, sort us out, then we will give you the money. And surely we need to try.

Mark Guglielmo
96 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:44:57
Dave @91, yep, I do live in the States, but honestly I don't watch MLS (where I believe VAR was also recently implemented). U.S. sports fans are used to new rule after new rule after new rule all the time though, so probably no one even batted an eye. I will say that as a general theme, U.S. sports fans favor accuracy & getting it right over anything else. The 4 major sports have had something called "instant replay" forever now, and a couple of them now even have "coaches challenges" where each coach gets a limited number of challenges they can make per game, to an onfield call. Of course we're also used to games taking 3 hours.

Anyway, my perspective comes from watching (mostly) Bundesliga & La Liga in addition to the EPL.

The biggest and really only difference is that the EPL is refusing to encourage it's refs to go back to the sideline booth to make THEIR final decision before ruling. If the refs don't do that, then they are allowing the VAR "decision" to be the ruling one, when in fact it should never be. It's the sole reason for having the sideline booth monitors.

Using the sideline booth for a final review allows the in-game ref to make judgment calls regardless of what the VAR ref says, or encourages. It allows for a ref (Madley) to tell the VAR ref (Mason), "thanks mate, I see what you're saying, but that to me was an accidental foul (Keane) so I'm sticking with my original no-foul call."

To me it just reeks of idiocy. The in-game refs are neutered of their ruling power, and their judgment and decision-making are completely marginalized.

So either use VAR right or don't use it at all, in summation.

Mark Guglielmo
97 Posted 28/10/2019 at 16:47:29
Rob @94, I think? we chatted about this?

:30 seconds isn't long enough; the average VAR review takes 1:22, and really that length of time is only that high because of the 5-10% of calls that are really difficult or important. Most offside, foul reviews, etc. are done for in under that :30 duration.

I do think there could be some form of compromise at say, maximum 1 minute, though.

Rob Marsh
98 Posted 28/10/2019 at 17:13:39
Jim # 95

I understand your worries about going down, but if that team did go down it would be the most expensive in the history of top flight football in any league (most probably?).

If Silva stays we'll probably finish about 15th with about 40-45pts, if a new manager comes who knows?

I wouldn't worry too much about Benitez pulling us out of the brown stuff and also I believe the club would help him out with genuine forward once he or any other manager is in place. They are not going to spend that money on Silva while performing like he is.

His constant changes of team, we'd have to judge him when in place, I doubt he'd sabotage himself like Silva is doing though.

Jose, if the club could persuade him to takeover without his usual massive transfer kitty, excellent. There is something about his general demeanour that I feel he looks a bit tired, the flame is not burning as brightly as it once was?

At ManU he got involved in a fight with the players he couldn't win and should have known better. We're now after stability, he might just down tools like at United and wait to be sacked? I'd be cautious about him.

There's no easy choice here.

Jim Wilson
99 Posted 28/10/2019 at 17:33:49
Rob - You make a lot of good points. I hope you are right about the relegation worry. We seem to have been in this position far too many times and I keep thinking one day it will bite us.

I am in despair over how our great club has been run since the '80s. I am just old enough to remember the '60s when Everton with Man Utd was the biggest club in England and, apart from the mid-eighties, we seem to have been in a downward spiral ever since.

And the simple solution to me is make sure you have a good manager, preferably a great one.

Tony Abrahams
100 Posted 28/10/2019 at 18:53:09
Thanks Mark, and that’s why I asked the question@87, because you said it was up to the on-field ref to make the decision @85, but it was obvious that this was not the case mate.

You have made the most valid point though Mark, they should do it properly or not bother at all, which is how I feel watching Everton lately, where the intensity of the players only seems to rise at Goodison Pk, and I know that Rob H, and the genuine away support, deserve much better, for their obvious dedication.

John Raftery
101 Posted 28/10/2019 at 19:01:43
Hi John (93) The book is ‘Money Can’t Buy Us Love’ by Gavin Buckland. It is a great read about Everton in the Sixties. I am sure you will enjoy it.
David Pearl
102 Posted 28/10/2019 at 19:26:06
I was all for var. But not for this shit. They must of held a recent meeting in which they said well boys it seems to be working okay so far.. now lets go out and fuck it up.

The mls version is so much better. The prem had the blueprint from that and then world cup but chose a different route. Obviously

John McFarlane Snr
103 Posted 28/10/2019 at 19:32:21
Hi Mark [96], none of the things that you say American sports fans embrace appeal to me. Wolves have pyrotechnic displays before their home games; we tried it before the first game of this season, and thankfully [for me] it appears to be a one-off. The only attraction that [in my opinion] may please fans would possibly be cheer leaders, but unfortunately for me, at 81 years of age, it wouldn't raise my spirit.

Hi John [101], thanks a lot for that information, it will strengthen my 'hint dropping' no end, and with a little luck I'll be reading the book on Christmas Day.

Mark Guglielmo
104 Posted 28/10/2019 at 20:47:08
Tony @100, no problem, but just to make sure I was clear/you understood me, it is always up to the on field ref to make the final call. When that ref doesn't choose to do so by omitting the the sideline booth review - his last chance before the final ruling, then the VAR ref's suggestion becomes the final ruling by default.

Think of it like voting. If you don't vote, you're voting for whoever wins by default.

David @102, spot on, I said to a few folks I know that it appears to me as though the EPL begrudgingly implemented, then made damned sure it would fail, so they could turn around and say, see? It's too bad. They've alienated fans who want it to work, they've validated fans who said it wouldn't work before even knowing about, and now we have this mess.

Mark Guglielmo
105 Posted 28/10/2019 at 20:50:04
John @103, I can easily see why that wouldn't be appealing haha. American sports & the great history of British club football have a wider gap between them than the Atlantic Ocean between our nations.

I read a really good book about the birth/formation of the EPL, and I found it surprising that in the early days (circa 1992-1994), the owners were enamored with how the NFL produced Monday Night Football, with all the pomp and circumstance and such, and actually tried to implement some of the aspects of it, including the cheerleaders!

I believe it was rightfully shouted down pretty quickly. Best wishes to you too, sir.

John McFarlane Snr
106 Posted 28/10/2019 at 22:33:20
Hi Mark [105],

I can only think that you read it in an American publication because I personally have no recollection of it here in the UK. It would be interesting to know how many over here have read the book, or witnessed any of the 'Pomp and Circumstance' that you've referred to, in that period.

Mark Guglielmo
107 Posted 29/10/2019 at 01:23:40
John, it's called The Club, written by 2 guys from America, from the Times and the Wall Street Journal. Incredibly well-researched. It's such a good read you can fly through it.

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