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The Mail Bag

Can We Complain?

Comments (35)

I was looking at the listings (from Deloitte I think) regarding the state of football finance.

Everton seem to have around the eighth highest turnover and spend a bit more than most (in percentage terms) on player wages.

Without keeping the exact figures we seem to finish somewhere in line with our expenditure and this leads me to ask the following:-

Does Kenwright ensure we spend on the team a good amount compared to earnings?

Does DM work miracles or does he just finish where his team should expect to related to expenditure?

Rob Hollis, Holmfirth     Posted 13/06/2011 at 21:27:26

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Dick Fearon
1   Posted 13/06/2011 at 23:05:40

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I am not too worried, well, maybe a little bit, about our lack of signings. Just one or two decent ones would satisfy me plus the offloading of a few wastes of space.
I want us to start the new season without any kind of hype from players and other pundits. In fact I would be delighted to named as potential candidates for relegation. We have seen what happens when hopes are raised with Moyes raving on about the best ever squad he has had etc.

This year I prefer to leave that kind of stuff to our dear neighbors. After spending an absolute fortune and anything less than a Champions league place would be catastrophic for them. Before a ball has been kicked they are already in the running for the premiership. At least, that is a bare minimum of what the entire Kop expect and half their players are spouting.

Just for once I would rather stay under the radar and start the new season with something not half as bad as last year.
Jamie Connor
2   Posted 13/06/2011 at 23:56:37

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I'm not worried. I know our management team of DM and board have their haters but they could have gotten carried away with dreams of champions league and left us up the creek without a paddle. On the pitch I feel we're only a 20 goal striker away from pushing on and closing the gap again. Give us an extra 20 goals last season and see the difference it could have made in placings. Our position is confounded by the sheer frustration of those lot next door and their supposed rennaisence although they're still blowing money on signings Rafa-esque so no change there then.
David Barks
3   Posted 14/06/2011 at 01:37:22

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It's what I've been saying all along. We finish about where we should given the financial state of this club compared to those around us, and the others just about fall into their appropriate place. The richest are at the top, the poorest go down, and the rest fight it out in the middle. We're not the club with the most debt, far from it, and we're not the club with the cheapest squad, far from that. We're about 7th. One year we might get lucky as we did in the past and finish toward the top. It's the fact that every club's fans should know before a ball has been kicked where they can expect to finish and that other that 2-3 clubs have no shot of winning the league. It's not an Everton problem, it's a Premier League problem.
Matt Traynor
4   Posted 14/06/2011 at 02:57:25

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There are many ways of interpreting the data contained in that report, and a few interesting (to me anyway!) things it throws up - the huge broadcast deals that Madrid and Barca have. I remain convinced that for all its faults, the collective agreement with the Premier League benefits us more than if we negotiated individual TV deals. If the English league ever went to individual TV rights, the disparity in income would get much wider than it is now.

When you look at the ratios of matchday v broadcast v commercial, Arsenal have one of the lowest proportions of commercial revenue. But they still have a big sponsor deal, and sell merch? Okay, their ticket prices are high, and with a nearly always full 60k stadium, that will skew the figures somewhat, but it is in the huge amount of corporate hospitality that their matchday income really ratchets up.

For me the real concern is proportion of TV income versus total income. I haven't seen the figures, but I bet we are amongst the highest. The opportunity to increase matchday revenue is limited due to facilities at Goodison, therefore where do we go?

The sponsor deal with Thai Bev is up end of the forthcoming season. Will we get more than the 2.6m / year it's currently worth? Whilst there's a case for retaining an existing commercial partner for as long as possible, it can't be at the expense of too much if there's others out there willing to pay much more.
Rahman Talib
5   Posted 14/06/2011 at 06:59:23

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What we need is some rich ayrab to invest in us
Richard Dodd
6   Posted 14/06/2011 at 08:14:20

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Totally agree with David Banks at #2.BK provides him with the funds we can afford and Davey repeatedly does a good job of providing best value for what he`s given.Neither is a genius but only the most optimistic of us expect more than we`ve achieved over the past ten years.
Karl Meighan
7   Posted 14/06/2011 at 08:37:35

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Although Moyes League positions have been fairly good, there is always room for improvement.

If we are finishing around the places we should then a couple of seasons finishing higher and we could afford a better standard of player?

With success brings financial reward, Man Utd before Ferguson were almost sold to that ball juggling clown Knighton for a fraction of what they are now worth.

I aint saying its easy but if the clubs run well its not impossible to get in amongst the Champions League places and then finance will improve.

Trevor Mackie
8   Posted 14/06/2011 at 10:09:37

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This acceptance of one's position as represented financially is as far removed from the point of football as you can get.

It is a view that concedes ambition, delivering a match day as a passive "day out" where the result is as pre determined and scripted as one of BK's shows.

One might take a walk at Otterspool as an alternative - it's far cheaper and better for you.

Incredulous that such thoughts exist - admittedly it tends to be among forum dwellers rather than match goers.
Sam Hoare
9   Posted 14/06/2011 at 11:09:49

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Have to say that i was surprised our wages were so high. It always seem whenever we are in competition with other teams for players that we get beaten on account of them offering more.

Maybe its the players who have stayed...Arteta, Cahill etc who are eating up the wages....

If so, maybe it time to shift some of the highest earners...
Steve Jones
10   Posted 14/06/2011 at 11:16:00

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So the point of football is to have unrealistic expectations, based on nothing but fantasy and emotion, and then play merry hell with all those 'at fault' for not matching up to the expectations that were unrealistic in the first place.

We go to the match HOPING to see a Fellaini-pirouette or a sublime Baines free-kick bulge the opposition net....we don't show a lack of ambition by keeping the expectations consistent with reality though.
Steve Higham
11   Posted 14/06/2011 at 11:44:39

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If we all keep our expectations reasonable maybe we wont feel disappointed .
I used to have high expectations for Everton - I am nearly 50 now and having seen the great team of 80's that was the standard for myself.
My son always points out that he has never seen anything like I have and perhaps he never will. This put things in a little bit of persepctive for me as I thought the 80's team of Reid/Sheedy/Bracewell/Steven was the best I have ever seen.
We believed all the hype at the beginning of last season lets just see what transpires this season .COYB.
Richard Dodd
12   Posted 14/06/2011 at 13:26:32

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A quick flip through the record books show that Everton have only finished in the top four of the top league on 14 occasions in the 64 seasons since WW2.Between the wars their record was hardly more inspiring for although they finished top on 4 occasions those were the only ones in 20 seasons they made top four!
It therefore follows that in no less than 66 of the 84 seasons stretching back to 1919,we have been amongst `the also rans`.
Now I write this not to denigrate our great Club`s record but purely to establish some realism amongst the message board regulars, too many of whom believe that based on our glorious past, we have a god given right to be a top four side.
Sadly,the reality is somewhat different and that is why we do Everton-and ourselves- no favours by EXPECTING success rather than HOPING for it.
Believe me,following our club becomes a lot more enjoyable once you accept that philosophy!
Rob Hollis
13   Posted 14/06/2011 at 14:52:59

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Having read the information I was struck by the fact that DM seems not to be the miracle worker we are told he is. Having said that he is not failing either.

BK seems to be doing quite well in terms of the cash he is allowing to be spent as well.

Having said that I certainly expect us to win every game and for our Manager to perform better than his budget and win us the league!
Steve Jones
14   Posted 14/06/2011 at 15:43:21

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"Having read the information I was struck by the fact that DM seems not to be the miracle worker we are told he is. Having said that he is not failing either."

He's consistently got top 6ish performances out of a squad assembled under wage constraints much more severe than peer teams. He's built the general level of technical ability up, in the team, from predominantly kick-and-rush to something approaching a decent passing game at least some of the time. Both accomplishments credit is due for.

Last season we saw, as a direct result of that, more teams coming to defend. Moyes, tactically, proved singularly incapable of coping with teams that wouldn't give us the space to exploit. Something which is scarcely believeable seeings they were the tactics he so successfully used to get us into the Champions League that one time. He HAD to see that consequence coming as a result of freer attacking football from his side.

All told its a B or, perhaps, B+ grade if you are willing to give him bonus points for spotting young talent early.

"Having said that I certainly expect us to win every game and for our Manager to perform better than his budget and win us the league! "

Likewise I HOPE we win every game. I EXPECT us to have a lot of tough matches across the season. I EXPECT a Moyes team to give 100%+ commitment and fight for each other on the pitch....when I see that I'm satisfied. Anything else is going to be guesswork so setting any expectation on it is a mugs game.
Dennis Stevens
15   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:14:09

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"Can We Complain?" - If those lads on the park could play as well as we can complain then Everton would be champions of England & Europe every season!
Pete Sullivan
16   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:22:09

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Let's just clarify one thing on this discussion, BK does not provide one penny to David Moyes. All BK has to do is let him know what the budget is he can spend. Provided BK knows the simple arithmetic of Total Revenue + Player Sales - Total Costs = Player Purchase Budget, then he can rest in the warm glow of "doing everything I can to provide David with the funds to improve the players on the pitch.." turn the record over Bill will ya?

Probably every contributor to Toffeeweb has and will continue to provide more money to EFC than BK through their ticket and shirt purchases every season

BK has never actually put a single penny into EFC funds since he bought the shares in Club and as those shares weren't a new issue - as far as I know - the club did not get any cash from that either.

However we should all be grateful he doesn't take a salary for all the work he does. And never forget we are trying 24/7..bla bla bla bla bla

Wayne Smyth
17   Posted 14/06/2011 at 18:32:15

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Any attempt to determine whether the club is performing as you would expect should also consider our performance against clubs who have more expensively assembled squads than we do, and our performance against squads with cheaper squads.
Dan Brierley
18   Posted 14/06/2011 at 18:30:14

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Pete Sullivan 15#

Regardless of what your perception of Kenwright as a Chairman is, in terms of monetary value your 500 quid season ticket and couple of shirt sales doesn't really compare to a chairmans salary that normally equates to 500K plus per season.

But hey, lets be honest. What we expect, is a chairman that takes no salary, and pumps every penny he has into the club right? And once he has been bled dry, we will call for his head and ask for the next 'saviour'.

It still baffles me as to why we haven't been sold yet, all we are asking for is that the new chariman puts all their money in without taking anything out for gods sake!!
Trevor Lynes
19   Posted 14/06/2011 at 18:55:19

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Part of the reason for bringing in new players is to stimulate the team and more importantly...the FANS !!
If we are to rely on DM's promises to lower the age of our squad then he must sign players or bring in one or two of our youngsters at the expense of the older evolves all the time and todays star is tomorrows hasbeen...we desperately need to bring in some fresh players to a/ Improve our squad and b/ excite the fans.
Peter Warren
20   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:08:54

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Richard #11 I don't expect of hope for sucesss, I demand the best from EFC. This is our philosophy.

Nothing else is good enough for me and I will criticise the board, players, manager unless we keep striving to be the best. I refuse to accept less yet alone to simply be a top 8 club.
Gavin Ramejkis
21   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:12:53

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Dan a simple request would be a chairman/chairwoman with a fucking clue of running a business who doesn't waste the opportunity of the club's life with the King's Dock, a foolhardy pissed away millions on a fatally flawed Desperation Kirkby and the ability to create and instigate a short medium and long term business plan, to create options for the club to generate off field income streams, to market the club and business, to form sustainable non matchday revenue. If that were to require an initial speculative investment of their own millions to be recovered as a percentage of such via profits or shares then so be it. Sadly I'll not be holding my breath that Kenshite or any other major shareholder or current senior employee of Everton as having the ability or acumen to do so.
Sean Patton
22   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:47:47

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Where are Brentford and Reading on this list?
Richard Dodd
23   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:47:12

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Oh why,oh why, Gavram,didn`t Kenwright sell out to Mr Yeong or the Venckys when ,no doubt,he had the chance? Then you would have got what you`ve hoped for and Everton would have been flying high........or would they?
Trevor Mackie
24   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:15:25

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Steve @ 9

The answer to your first para is - yes.
David Crowe
25   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:14:46

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A lot of our expenditure is on our wooden stadium to be fair and our wages are high because Moyes brought in cheap players such as Mikel, Pienaar, Lescott etc and they grew into great players so to keep hold of them we have to offer high wages. Not many other clubs have our quality of players and so don't have to offer big money to keep them.
David Crowe
26   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:19:08

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Our net spend on transfers is tiny, in addition.
Joe McMahon
27   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:39:08

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I would pressume only managers finishing around CL places are earning more than Moyes? 3.5 million a year is too much to pay a manager in our finincial shit.
Dan Brierley
28   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:21:43

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Gav, this is something we have done to death mate. We both know that we are never going to change each others perceptions.

The only thing I will say, is that you are completely right in what your suggestions for sustainable growth are. However what you have stated, is just plain obvious to all of us. If it was just as simple as that, then the whole premiership would be raking money in hand over fist. But the reality is, that the Premiership does not operate in that environment, nor does UK football in general. I have always rated our club based on the environment it is in. And when we measure our finishing position against our spending, we have consistently performed as expected, with the blips of up and downs along the way. Compare that to the 5 years leading up to Kenwright taking over, and to me it shows improvement. Is it enough? Of course not, we need to keep moving forward. But the difference to go from relegation fodder to top 8 is merely a small step in comparison to the light year of top 8 to Title contenders.
Karl Meighan
29   Posted 15/06/2011 at 08:48:58

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We may have finished seventh but imo there is no great gulf in quality from the teams finishing twelth.

If we start being happy with eigth and dont set are sights higher we run the risk of getting left even further behind.

Ime quite sure Moyes is not happy finishing seventh so why should we be?

I expect us to beat any team at Goodison which we are capable of so when slip ups happen it pisses me off and i complain.

In any case you finish in a position by how well you perform on the pitch not by how much you spend or how much wages you pay.

If a crop of youngsters are brought through there not going to be earning big bucks, there is a lot more to it than spending big imo.
Richard Dodd
30   Posted 15/06/2011 at 09:24:11

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I think most Evertonians would have settled for a takeover by Randy Lerner when he reputedly got the bum`s rush from BB over takeover ambitions of Everton FC. But seeing the mess he`s made of Aston Villa and his current plans to pinch no less a manager than BCFC`s poor man`s Davey Moyes, Alex McLeish, it`s clear that`s another good call by our revered Chairman. Good on yer, Bill!
Pete Sullivan
31   Posted 15/06/2011 at 12:16:59

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Hey Dan #15..did you hear the whistling sound of the points I made going right over your head fella ?

If BK had the audacity to take money out of Everton for the part-time "work" done plus all the benefits in kind he gets, whilst never having put one penny of his own money in, then that would finish me with EFC.
And let's be quite clear about the Chairman's role which should be to set the agenda, the strategy, the vision and provide the means of accomplishing it. This isn't and absolutely should not be a full time hands on Operational role.The Exectiuve team including the Manager then have to implement their plans to deliver this operationally. This is how any Successful organisation MUST work. To my mind we don't have any Long Term strategy, we live week to week, month to month and season to season. The responsibility for this culture is ALL Kenwright's

Gavin #21 is bang on the money with what is required..but those people who bang on about what he hasn't done ie sellout to a shark and that we should all be Grateful for that, astound me. Is that the measure of the man we should be using? I think not.
Andrew Earlam
32   Posted 16/06/2011 at 11:33:09

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Don't we usually run at a loss save for the season we sold Rooney meaning Blue Bill ain't allowed to pay himself a dividend anyway.

@Richard Dodd 12

Fair points but would you agree that in the years before the present administration there was always hope that maybe next season things could change.How many of "our competitor clubs" (Elstone was happy to use this term at the Public Inquiry) would settle for our lot on the infinite basis you imply we should.
Steve Jones
33   Posted 16/06/2011 at 15:02:05

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"In any case you finish in a position by how well you perform on the pitch not by how much you spend or how much wages you pay."

...and the quality of performances on the pitch, across the season, is directly related to the depth of quality in the playing squad.

That quality comes at a price and is always reflected in the wage bill.

Simple fact mate is that there is no-one with a lower wage bill than us higher in the end of league standings. For odd matches, or even short runs, a Blackpool or a Reading can punch well over their weight but the lack of quality all over the pitch always tells in the end.

We have assembled a quality side for suprisingly little money compared to the rest of the top half of the league. Thats why Moyes is coveted by those teams who'd like to be a bit more competitive but cant, or wont, shell out like Spurs or Liverpool to do it.

Trevor Lynes
34   Posted 16/06/2011 at 21:23:22

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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we have been linked with a few prospective acquisitions to the squad BUT, as I said before, if there is competition from ANY other club, we seem to immediately drop out of the picture... WHY FFS???

It's frustrating for me to search the press and websites and see club after club being linked with this player and that player, some having already signed additions to their squads.... we do absolutely nothing. Nero fiddling while Rome burned comes to mind...

Lots of clubs have debt but can you imagine what would happen to us if we were relegated without trying to improve our squad? We DESPERATELY need to refresh our squad and empty out players who have been allowed out on loan or are so injury-prone that they are a drain on our finances. We also need replacements coming through to take over from Neville, Hibbert, Arteta, Cahill and Distin.
BK is a FUCKING OSTRICH and will do nothing unless forced... I still reckon Fellaini was a panic signing because of all the stick over missing out on Moutinho and others. DM is sticking it out so far because he has a good salary and safe job... BUT ambition will come to the surface someday soon and he could well get fed up and move away. Players of international standard want to win things and a football career is relatively short; we can hang on to the mediocre players and those who are coming to the end of their careers but, unless we show ambition, I can see others deserting us. Be warned the Ides of March!!!

Steve Jones
35   Posted 17/06/2011 at 08:16:07

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Maybe you're another one, Trevor, who needs to take a step back from the pc during close season?.

At the moment we have missed out on who? Nolan??? FFS what do we want with that red-hued beaut?

Demba Ba? A bloke who wants a serious wage packet and has enough of a medical history that Pulis wouldn't touch him! Yeah, we really need a prominent striker being paid big money to sit on the treatment table dont we?

We're not even in July yet, all of our major talents, barring Fellaini, are on seriously long contracts, no-one has expressed any public unhappiness with the club recently and we aren't staring down the barrel of a player exodus Aston Villa style... are we?

Nero may be fiddling but Rome isn't even smouldering yet. We are stable, for the present, which actually places us in a better state than a few big name clubs. We have got time for someone with fresher ideas than the present halfwits on the board to come along... which is vital because the kneejerk idiocy of chucking one lot out without a good replacement standing ready can't be tolerated by anyone capable of feeding themselves surely?

Don't let any of those things stand in the way of you having a really good bitch and moan though, Trevor, yeah? Good therapy, eh?

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