On my lunch break just saw that United have all but sealed the deal with Blackburn prodigy Phil Jones. Personally, I see similarities in him with our own ?wonderkid? Jack Rodwell- Jones can play in midfield, and did so towards the end of last year, however has been placed at centre back this year alongside Chris Samba and looks to be, dare I say it, twice the player of our Jack.
My question is, with United linked to Rodwell should we be happy that we seem to have kept hold of our most promising youngster or not?
Personally I wouldn?t have minded if Rodwell left, Moyes doesn?t seem to know what his best position is, he?s had a few niggling injuries and his development seems to have stalled.
However, if Jack is still here at the start of the season I would like to see him starting at centre-back alongside jagielka, as I believe he will turn out to be a great intelligent centre back allowing us to play out from the back. I also believe this will bring out the best in jags who can?t help but put his foot through the ball and is ?a great recovery defender? according to the gaffer, so let him be the covering defender, and let jack be our ball-playing defender.
Tom Curtis, Posted 08/06/2011 at 13:16:50
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1 Posted 08/06/2011 at 18:40:47
2 Posted 08/06/2011 at 18:39:45
3 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:05:08
I know Rodwell has regressed a little this season but his distribution is streets ahead of Jones who at best is a clogger in the mould of Jody Craddock.
4 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:06:11
I would much rather let the foreign players go as they are not here because they love the country or the club.....I dont blame them for chasing the money (I did it myself working abroad for many years) but it makes more sense to let the likes of Bily and Heitinga go and try to use the money to buy one or two British players.
Its better to hang onto Rodwell and Baines and try to build a future EFC side with those two as mainstays...
Does anyone agree with my reasoning ???????
5 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:12:15
Everton will never play the sort of football we all crave as long as Jagielka plays, I wrote an article over a year ago stating this and everyone went bananas. but I`ve seen nothing to change my mind. the guy is a decent defender - sometimes, but he is anti-football
Jack is a big talent, but he isnt the full package he lacks drive and aggression - good luck to the coach who tries to instill those qualities - and anyone who saw him ragdolled by a journeyman striker at the Richo a year ago will not want to see him played at Center half when the chips are down.
They are both English and as todays events have shown us, we will get an inflated price for both of them.
Cash in and lets get this squad freshened up
6 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:41:07
Jags may not be Beckanbaur but how many centre halves can you name in the premier league who are good on the ball? No I can't think of too many either.
Vidic doesn't seem to stop Utd winning the league and you can go down every club and say the same. Except, of course, Arsenal but their centre halves don't seem to be able defend!
7 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:40:52
It looks as though Henderson will be off to Liverpool as well, both appear to have progressed were as Rodwell as i believed from the very begining was over hyped and has not improved.
Jack does not appear to have a good reading of the game, he struggles to make space for himself which means he tends to go missing in games, he doesn't use the ball very effectively and as Dave said he does not appear to have the drive or aggression to be a top player.
Hopefull i will be proved wrong but he will always be behind Fellaini Arteta and Heitinger in the pecking order which is why £15m for him would be a good deal for Everton.
8 Posted 08/06/2011 at 19:56:42
If we can still get a payment/part exchange north of the value of £15m then, in my opinion we have to take it. I am of the opinion that Rodders won't be the world beater we thought he may be. And unfortunately we're not in the position to wait and see.
9 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:15:01
Watch Jack take the under 21 tournament by storm this summer, then ask why Moyes can't get the same out of him.
10 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:17:28
11 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:42:19
12 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:49:01
13 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:47:28
Read the OP mate, its about both of them.
Watson was twice the defender Jagielka is, he was also a great leader -something Jags will never be.
That said our football was never as good as it was When big Derek was playing, I`ll live with that though, Watson was a winner
14 Posted 08/06/2011 at 20:44:45
Jones has had a good start with Blackburn and although i haven't seen that much of him he does seem similar to Rodwell but playing with more confidence which Rodwell hasn't had for different reasons.
It should be a interesting pre season but unless another club offers silly money for one of are main assets signings above say 5 million would seem unlikely (hope ime wrong).
Players like Jones and Henderson for 20 million are a definite risk imo as playing well for half a season can easily turn to poor form and a dissapearing act.
15 Posted 08/06/2011 at 21:00:55
I watched Jones on telly playing for the under 21's the other day and he looked ok, i aint stupid enough to judge him on one game but comparing him to Cradock? That did make me laugh.
16 Posted 08/06/2011 at 21:13:04
I would also take issue with your assessment of Jags leadership skills, I believe he is a good talker at the back and leads by example. Dave Watson was great but also put his foot through the ball often enough!
17 Posted 08/06/2011 at 22:15:20
18 Posted 08/06/2011 at 22:17:50
19 Posted 08/06/2011 at 22:17:50
20 Posted 08/06/2011 at 22:38:14
I could not care less what Ferguson thinks of him and how Man United spend their money.
I was merely responding to the point that somebody thinks Jones is twice the player of Rodwell which in my opinion is utter tosh.
How on earth can you believe 15 million for Rodwell be a good deal for Everton when Jones is going for more?
21 Posted 08/06/2011 at 22:55:15
Jags a decent defender? ask Fernando Torres.
One of the best defenders i,ve seen at our football club, Brilliant.
He aint a box to box midfielder. Holding midfielder?. If the rumours are true, Man u / Ferguson have been looking high and low for years, for a Roy Keane, i.e Carrick, Hargreaves and Anderson. Maybe Ferguson see,s Rodwell as Roy Keane. Dont forget that was the position Rodwell was playing when he was going through he,s purple patch, then got injured.
22 Posted 08/06/2011 at 23:29:50
23 Posted 08/06/2011 at 23:32:24
In my opinion £15m would be a good deal for Everton because i doubt anyone would be so unwise to pay any more especially if he has another season as bad as the last. I think it would be a good time to cash in while his value is still inflated from the hype.
Also Rodwell is likley to be sat on the bench for most of next season as he is probably our 4th of 5th choice midfielder and so £15million would be better used on what we really need such as a striker.
24 Posted 09/06/2011 at 01:38:21
Rodwell needs to learn the game and, sorry to say it, but he isn't going to learn the right stuff here. Put him in a good side and he'll come along very well - continue to 'educate' him like this and his playing and financial worth to us will suffer.
He's worth more to us being sold now than he will be in the future.
25 Posted 09/06/2011 at 02:48:39
26 Posted 09/06/2011 at 04:28:36
Colin #18 - "Maybe Ferguson sees Rodwell as Roy Keane". Don't think so. Good as Jack is, he ain't Roy Keane. Could you imagine Jack saying to Capello " Fuck off you load of old bollocks" or something similar ? No, neither could I.
27 Posted 09/06/2011 at 04:47:51
Jack Rodwell is a class young player. Completely disagree about him not reading the game well. He is big, athletic, can pick a pass (sorry to those of you who expect a 20yr old to make defence splitting passes all game).
He has been held up with injuries but the talent is there and he is still only 20. Utd can keep their hands off him as far as I'm concerned. Even if he didn't progress into a star he will be a decent english player so we will always be able to sell him for a tidy sum if needed.
I look at how Coleman worked brilliantly on the right this season. The poor bugger couldn't get a start at right back until he was handed an opportunity on the wing. He got that because Moyes had few other options. Jack isn't likely to get such a clear run of games considering the talent we already have through the middle of the park.
I still hold faith that he will be an Everton great in time.
28 Posted 09/06/2011 at 06:54:37
What are you talking about lad ? whats it got to do with Tony Hibbert ?
Jagielka is in a different class to Tony, he`s reputedly worth 10-15 million quid, you could take a nought off that figure if you wanted to sell Hibbo, BUT If somebody would pay that for Hibbo, I would advocate selling him too, they wont . . so what would be the point ?
If Jagielka wasnt valued so highly I would not advocate selling him , ,but he is and thats the direction the thread is taking - how do we raise the money. ?
I dont criticise Jagielka or any of our players just for the sake of it, I think we could manage without him and I say why .
We all know we are skint and if we are to buy, we need to sell first, If you would rather keep the current squad fair enough, but I wouldnt.
I want to keep Fellaini, so for me its Jags and Roddders and I give my reasons, Its not compulsary to bring one of our home grown players into every debate you know.
Hibbo is a good honest pro and while he wears the Everton shirt I will defend him as such.
29 Posted 09/06/2011 at 07:46:19
The man would NOT get in our best eleven....so much for his playing in europe gripe...also I have seen no evidence of any club wanting him.
If he wants european football with his very limited talent, then I suggest he should head back to Holland or some othe european country where he may fit in.
Both players have not proved good buys so stop the sniping at decent english players who want to play for us.
Jags definitely has been part of one of the best defences in the league and for my money an integral part of the club as a whole.
We need strikers and wide attacking players so put the vitriolic comments into gaining players for those positions and STOP sniping at players who put 100% into every game and have kept us away from the relegation zone.
I say loudly..get rid of Bily and Heitinga plus Yak, Yobo and the others out on loan.
30 Posted 09/06/2011 at 08:10:52
Would Heitinga bring in 7 million? whilst Billy imo would bring in 4 million tops, added to the vaughan sale the Yak and Yobo that should give Moyes enough to bring in a young goalscorer with potential.
I would also like to see a wide player with pace a central midfielder who has some drive in his game who is going to compete with the quality we have in there.
The managers biggest task imo is not potential new signings but getting players like Arteta and Jageilka to consistently produce the high standards they are capable of.
Another big thing for Moyes is not to let this bollocks about starting the season shite eat away at the players and make sure were ready mentally for the start of the season.
31 Posted 09/06/2011 at 08:34:13
The one thing that might change that is if Rodders has a blinder at the Euro championship and tempts Utd or City to open their chequebook again.
Otherwise it promise to be a very dull Summer for us with a couple of free transfer and maybe some more unheard of kids coming in much like this time last year. Meanwhile cash is going to be flying everythwere around us as the big teams make use of the diminishing time to make huge investments in overrated players and the selling clubs then have huge wedges of cash to spend and fans to placate.
Yobo, Yak and Vaughan out for around £6m
Boothroyd, Larsson, Long and some unheard of youngster in for also around £6m.
32 Posted 09/06/2011 at 09:28:14
33 Posted 09/06/2011 at 09:25:47
Its also "stupid" to think our defence carried us last season , individual defensive errors cost us any hope of challenging the top four and they were every bit as responsible for a disappointing season as our toothless attack
I`d be happy to see Bily gone, but to generate the sort of cash needed for a radical overhall then it has to be somebody/s with a higher profile.
People constantly whine about our style of play, yet they scream the house down if you suggest selling the cheif exponent of Hoofball.
Jagielka will have past 30 next season and we`ll then be lucky if we could get half of the 15 million Wenger was reportedly prepared to pay for him last season.
We dont concede any more goals when Jagielka isnt playing and we have never challenged for a champions league place with him or Rodders in our ranks.
Selling these two could generate 30m + at the ridiculous prices clubs are prepared to pay for English players and IMO its "stupid" to dismiss the possibility of us being a better team by purchasing a decent creative players with the proceeds of their sale.
I recognise people can be blinded by favouritism, but there is a much bigger picture here.
The good news is ; Davey Moyes isnt too interested in what I have to say, so your hero is likely to be here until he turns into stubbsy . . mores the pity
34 Posted 09/06/2011 at 11:03:50
35 Posted 09/06/2011 at 12:16:12
36 Posted 09/06/2011 at 12:50:07
Given a choice between keeping Baines, Fellaini or Rodwell; I?d pick Baines and Fellaini.
As for ?hoofball Jags?. Maybe the reason for is supposed hoofball is because none of our midfielders give him an option? When he plays for England he doesn?t hoofball. Is that because Capello tells him not to, but Moyes does? Is it because England?s midfielders provide better options than our midfielders?
Instead of having a go at him, look into the reasons why.
I?ll go on record now and say Jagielka is one of the best centre half?s in the league, and no way on God?s green Earth would I drop him or sell him.
37 Posted 09/06/2011 at 13:01:23
Tony Hibbert is also a very good defender ( Just as good as Jags ) but he gets absolutely slaughtered for his distribution with the ball, and is hammered on here all the time.
One question, Why?
38 Posted 09/06/2011 at 14:01:36
Dont give me that, I cringe at the regularity with which jags hoofs it when he plays for England.
I have sat behind Moyes when he was repeatly screaming at Jagielka to "shorten it up". Do you really believe any manager would encourage such mindless surrender of possesion ? especially one who`s meant to be as cautious as Moyes ?
Jags repeated ignores midfiled players 3-4 yards away and puts his foot through it.
We all know why he does it, its because he doesnt trust himself, he cant play and we`ve seent he results when he tries too,
Thats not having a go at him, that is stating what everyone who watches Everton regularly knows to be fact
39 Posted 09/06/2011 at 14:35:25
I don't think selling Jagielka as he is our best defender by far at the moment. I think you do underrate his defensive policies a bit.
I agree with you about his distribution, but at the same time, I made an article somewhat about midfielders not providing space for the defenders to pass to. It's unfair to solely blame Jagielka for the hoofball.
Perhaps because he's English, his value will go up, you're right, but I would never sell him, I can see him playing first team for most of the teams in the EPL.
40 Posted 09/06/2011 at 14:49:04
Watson was so similar to how Jagielka plays for us and how many of those boo boys who slaughtered him when he first came to Everton thought he would end up an Everton legend?
41 Posted 09/06/2011 at 15:05:48
I recognise its his defensive qualities that make him one of the few players we can get a big fee for.
Unlike the head in the sand merchants I can see clearly that we have to generate money. How else do we do it without selling one or two of our higher profiler players ?
We have adaquate replacements in central defence.
Make something up about Hibbo conceding 50 penalties or Vic Missing 100 sitters and fifty people are posting in to agree . . but state an irrifutable fact about one of the favourites and suddenly your talking shite and hoofball is now acceptable.
Fuck it your right, lets keep him. lets keep blaiming everyone else for his hoofball, lets finish seventh again - or lower and lets not even think about generating Money to by more creative footballers.
School of science, My arse
42 Posted 09/06/2011 at 15:39:21
Baines was voted player of the season closely followed by Distin and Jags...the only forward player who performed was OSMAN and he missed a lot of games...Our defence carried the side as a whole and if you cannot see that...then you must be watching other games !!
43 Posted 09/06/2011 at 15:42:01
My mentioning of Hibbert was merely to point out that the biggest "anti-footballer" in the team, seems to get off scot free in your estimation.
Jags may have his limitations but there have been many matches when he held us together. His regular mastery of Torres in matches at Anfield (when Torres was at his peak) was indeed a masterclass to behold. If we sold him (accepting your argument that he has some considerable value), we would be in trouble, in my opinion.
44 Posted 09/06/2011 at 17:36:08
45 Posted 09/06/2011 at 18:26:42
I played at a decent level, but I wasnt good enough to make a living out of the game besides it was over thirty years ago, so it makes not one iota of difference to this or any other of todays debates. I wouldnt embarress myself with one of those "I coulda made it" posts. because if I coulda, I woulda.
Our defence has been an utter shambles at times and if I listed the errors and points they have cost us this season I`d be here all night.
if you didnt see these errors, or if you think Baines was voted player of the year for his defensive displays then You`re right , we really were watching different games.
Just because Jagielkas "distribution poor" ? ? what distribution, he constantly ignores team mates close by, and twats it aimlessly upfield . . . That is the very definition of anti football.
You can defend it all you want, but he has done it with more than a dozen different midfield players, ARE THEY ALL TO BLAME ? ? and if so why do you suppose the hoofball miraculously dissappered during the spell when Jagielka was watching from the bench ?
He may be great at last ditch tackles - he`s has to be really given his ability on the ball, but why dont you just admit it, when he has the ball he`s hopeless.
Sell Him and bring back football
46 Posted 09/06/2011 at 20:39:42
To sell our best defender though because of this one failing would be suicidal. Oh, I forgot, there's always that ace Dutchman to rescue us - not.
47 Posted 09/06/2011 at 21:31:11
A pacey wideman in the mould of Donavan (not my job to find them) would cost around 8m that surely Kenwright and the rest of the board should be able to drum up.
Moyes should then try to get the best from Arteta then as Cahill said lets turn Goodison into a fortress and we still have the makings of a good side.
Bringing in four or five first team players never works and thats even if they cost top dollar.
48 Posted 09/06/2011 at 21:43:58
Jageilka did have a average season by his own high standards but lets not forget he was not long back from a career threatening injury.
Lescott was great for us but ime glad it was him and not Jageilka who was sold.
49 Posted 09/06/2011 at 21:50:59
50 Posted 09/06/2011 at 22:11:30
well it does lose possession and invites another attack which Jags will deal with then twat the ball forward again which in turn invites another attack.
Do you get my drift lads.
51 Posted 10/06/2011 at 02:23:26
52 Posted 10/06/2011 at 05:58:18
We agree, that Jags is a fine defender, we agree its better he hoofs it rather than have his limitations exposed. I doubt selling him would be "suicidal" but I`m more than happy to agree it would be risky.
Last season we had : Two strikers, who are finished, one who is desperately trying to make the leap from two divisions down, one who`s made of glass and another one who doesnt even get into the box.
we cant have another one like that, to progress we need more fire power and a bit more creative guile. I`m sure you will agree on that.
The money has to be found to buy a striker and a creative player, this is where we differ, everyone has their own opinion as to how we do that.
Selling Rodwell and Jags. would be unpopular for many reasons - not to mention risky - but by virtue of the fact that they are English we will get a lot more for both than they are actually worth.
Thats the direction I would take, thats all
53 Posted 10/06/2011 at 06:51:12
The 2.5 million we got for the sale of Vaughan has already gone the same way as the 3m we got for Pienaar, as will the 2-3 million we may get for each of the Nigerians. Our board have an incredible ability to make such amounts dissappear . . .But they would have a much harder job explaining how 40m quid disappeared.
To put the amount you speak about into perspective ; By the end of play today SAF is likely to have spent 55m already. . and he has the best team in the country.
54 Posted 10/06/2011 at 11:41:42
He lost his marker with nonchalant ease and played the simple pass when required but also put through some lovely defence splitters including one on the run from his own half to the edge of the opposition box that the winger somehow contrived to waste.
He was much better than Henderson or Jones and I couldnt believe he didnt get the M.o.m over Smalling who looked clumsy and ponderous.
I think people expect too much of him too soon and go tired of hearing the negativity from behind me at some games this season.
Keep him and bring on more kids around him!
55 Posted 10/06/2011 at 12:45:33
As Dave Wilson says more money will be paid for English players, therefore lets get as much as possible for Rodwell and Jagielka while they still have a good value. We need a striker and a hard midfield leader to start with. The team needs freshened up and toughened up.
56 Posted 10/06/2011 at 12:56:26
New signings are always a risk and theres no guarantee that they can improve the team.
Its no good having creative and goalscoring players if you need to score four to gain three points.
Dave himself admits its a risk, to big imo and could easily weaken the team not strengthen.
I dont remember any teams improving after selling there best players plus it becomes a bad habit.
I do agree that teams need freshening up and trying to improve and moving forward season after season but not at the expense of selling your best players.
Happening once is bad enough sell two or three and others will think the grass is greener elsewhere.
57 Posted 10/06/2011 at 12:52:15
Can't jump, pseudo hard man and not committed - he'll be gone if things don't work out for him.
Eric @51, I agree. I am a big critic of Hibbert who again I don't believe is as great a defender as people make out (but that's the subject of another thread). The difference for me though is that I will allow a centre back to hoof a ball occasionally but I want a full back to be a bit more confident on the ball. The days of fullbacks just being good defenders have long since gone - at least if you want to achieve a high league position / compete for trophies.
58 Posted 10/06/2011 at 13:32:18
Also, Henderson is doing the bizz for his club, thats why the shite are willing to splash big for him.
Wilshire has been immense for Arsenal, Jones is going to Man u for big money, so Fergie must see something in the lad.
These lads have moved up another level ability wise, Rodwell looks like he is going backwards.
59 Posted 10/06/2011 at 13:57:20
In the second half he was the defensive mid and ran the game from there. He looked much more relaxed and confident than I've seen him at Goodison.
To me he looked the finished article but I'm allowing for the youth of the opposition.
And I dont agree that Henderson is doing the bizz - I've heard the Sunnerlan fans were turning on him recently. He looked OK last week but nothing special!
Jones did look good though.
60 Posted 10/06/2011 at 14:08:18
Its not as if we have been watertight at the back, or that we have shipped dramatically more when Jagielka has been sidelined.is the risk really so great ? I love it when local boys represent Everton so I dont want to see Rodwell gone either, its heart breaking, but what do we do ?
Evertonians have stayed incredibly loyal, but you dont have to stray from these pages to see their patience is clearly running out, there is already a shortfall in ST sales and if we start the season playing purposeless football through the lack of cutting edge I think the walk up fans will vote with their feet too.
Times are tough and if Everton want people to part with their hard earned, they have got to come up with more.
I really believe we are at a crossroads right now (cliche, I know) but we are not Man United or chelsea, we cant afford to hold on to our better players AND purchase quality additions. only by taking a calculated gamble can we hope to compete.
In the meantime if either of you win the Euro lottery . . .
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