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VIEW FROM THE BLUE

'The Loop' — It Can Be Done

By Lyndon Lloyd :  30/07/2007 :  Comments (149) :

How to keep Everton in the city

Envision, if you will, a home for Everton in the district where the club was formed 129 years ago and in which the old Roundhouse in the centre of its famous crest still stands. The floodlights of the stadium are visible as you exit LIme Street Station or walk down Scotland Road from the direction of Walton. As you drive out of the Wallasey tunnel, the home of Everton FC is the first thing you see. The roar of 50,000 fans is audible from the city centre.

Everton back home in Everton at the heart of Liverpool.

It's been derided as the "reddest of red herrings" and a desperate, eleventh-hour bid by Liverpool City Council to save face, while being seized upon by those who want to keep Everton in the city as the answer to their prayers. There is no question, however, that as fans prepare to make arguably the most important decision of their Everton-supporting lives, the "Loop" off Scotland Road deserves to be explored as the potentially viable alternative to Kirkby so glaringly lacking on the upcoming ballot of fans.

The whys, hows and wherefores of how we got to this point — there's probably more than enough blame to go around all parties — are largely irrelevant to any examination of the possibilities that exist at the Tunnel Loop location. What is important is demonstrating that the site is, by Keith Wyness' definition, "deliverable" in both logistics and funding.

Of course, the former is the easy part; the latter is where, again, possibilities can be presented but it will be up to LCC leader, Warren Bradley, and the local authority over which he presides to prove that they can assemble the right package of property and commercial partners to rival what is on offer in Kirkby from Knowsley Borough Council and Tesco.

It's worthwhile prefacing a fuller examination by addressing the common assumption and potential misconception that we are talking about a mirror of the Kirkby project with the "Loop" alternative. In other words, it's highly unlikely to be a case of simply exchanging one retail giant for another where Bestway would help fund the actual construction of the stadium and a cash and carry would be integral to the final development. What is more likely is a Kings Dock-style scheme — a partnership between the local council, a regeneration agency, Bestway, a host of commercial partners, and Everton FC — where cooperation, mutual benefit and urban renewal for North Liverpool are what drive the funding behind the project as a whole.

Hobson's Choice

When 38,000-odd Everton supporters are given the opportunity in the coming month to vote on the future location of one of English football's oldest clubs, they will be faced with a simple enough question but, in reality, Hobson's Choice. Vote for the Everton Board's Plan A or choose nothing and, the club's Chief Executive, Keith Wyness, will have you believe, face inevitable stagnation and the potential for Goodison Park to be unusable within a decade.

On the face of it, Wyness' logic is straightforward. Goodison is ageing, requires increasing annual maintenance costs, offers far less in the way of corporate facilities than comparable stadia and, with an average attendance that is probably artificially suppressed by the 4,000 obstructed views inside the ground, is not able to provide sufficient revenue to enable the club to compete in the current financial climate of the Premier League.

So, with turnover close to a maximum provided by the current stadium and no wealthy benefactors in the boardroom, Everton Football Club is unable to fund either the redevelopment of Goodson Park or a new stadium development elsewhere without significant assistance from the local authority and commercial partners.

In that sense, the three-way partnership between Knowsley Borough Council, Tesco and Everton FC that would provide Everton with a 50,000-seat stadium is a workable solution but not an attractive proposition to a sizeable chunk of the fanbase: those who believe that the club should do everything to remain in the city of its birth; and those who accuse the current custodians of the club of dereliction of their duty for having brought the club to the point where through their own failure to bring any inward investment ito the club, that one unpalatable option is the only one left on the table.

Since the collapse of the much-heralded Kings Dock stadium project four years ago, Liverpool City Council have put forward a number of alternative sites inside the municipal boundary — from Gillmoss to Speke, Switch Island to Aintree — but without a heavy-hitting commercial partner to share the cost burden, the suggestions were effectively moot.

Facing bitter accusations themselves from Evertonians for appearing to favour Liverpool FC and their own quest to build a new home in their own back yard and then sit on their hands while Everton locked themselves into a long-term exclusivity agreement with Knowsley, LCC, led by another Evertonian, Warren Bradley, have stepped up their action in recent weeks to try and prevent its oldest professional football club from leaving the city.

On the day that Everton confirmed that they would be balloting its core support on the Kirkby Project, Bradley announced that the will was there on the part of the City Council to find a viable alternative within Liverpool and that three sites — four if you include the redevelopment of Goodison — were proposed: one on the main council housing depot in Long Lane, Aintree; one at the new car holding compound next to the New Mersey Retail Park at Speke and the site off Scotland Road in cooperation with Bestway (Holdings Ltd).

The last option was the one Bradley felt was the most promising, not least because of its location actually in Everton ward and the presence of Bestway as willing partners in a wider urban regeneration and commercial development scheme.

A "Loop-hole" in the "no alternative" argument

The proposed site inside the tunnel loop off Scotland Road is currently owned by the Bestway Group, the second largest cash and carry operator in the UK with annual turnover in excess of £1.7bn, and houses the Liverpool depot of Batley's which the company acquired in January 2005.

While the location currently serves Bestway well, sitting as it does at the mouth of the Wallasey tunnel and near the main arteries leading into the city, as urban regeneration projects transform Liverpool's inner city, it's open to question whether it would make sense to have a retail depot in such proximity to Liverpool city centre in 10, 20, 50 years' time.

The area immediately to the north will undergo complete transformation in the next few years as part of "Project Jennifer", a mixed-use retail, residential and commercial regeneration project, while a large tract to the south on the other side of the Kingsway is part-owned by Liverpool City Council and has been earmarked for regeneration.

So, while Bestway's retail division had no requirement to leave the site, the approach by the LCC offered the opportunity to become part of a large-scale commercial development — one that might leverage capabilities in the Bestway Group beyond their retail operation — that would augment the Project Jennifer development and transform a gateway to the city has obvious attractions.

In terms of size, Bestway's Head of Property, Malcolm Carter, is confident that the "Loop" site would accommodate a 50,000-seat stadium and he says that his firm is already in discussions with a stadium contractor to work up designs and a proposal that would confirm that the location is viable.

Trevor Skempton sketch
Scotland Road was one of the sites proposed by Architect and Designer Trevor Skempton in Pt II of his "Rebuilding Goodison" analysis published on ToffeeWeb earlier this year

Initial reaction to the possibiity of the Scotland Road site has ranged from unbridled enthusiasm to outright derision, the latter mostly as a result of the dimensions of the area in question. Much has been made of the fact that Goodison Park fits only snugly inside the "Loop" — albeit with room to spare on either side for the kind of open walkways and plazas depicted in Everton's proposed designs for the Kirkby stadium — but the viability of the site is not dependent on how much space is around the stadium and the structure's own dimensions at its widest are not hidebound to the size of its footpint.

Consider the following:

  • The stands could quite feasibly extend over the surrounding roadways by a few feet, either by horizontal extension, gradually at and angle, or by natural curvature in a dome-like structure
  • Alterations to the existing thoroughfares around the loop have been considered as part of the plan but may not be necessary
  • There is the potential to tunnelise one or more of the roads by building over them entirely — Grand Prix fans, think of the roadway that runs under the Loewes Hotel in Monte Carlo — but, again, may only be necessary if Everton decide or require at some point in the future to significantly increase the capacity of the stadium
  • An underground car park could be built under the stadium itself
  • A series of pedestrian bridges could provide access by foot over Scotland Road to the west, the loop to the north and Great Homer Street to the east
  • A wide concourse similar to "Wembley Way" could replace the existing walkway that links the area south of the Kingsway at St Anne's Street with the loop site, linking new commercial properties to the stadium.

In other words, imagine a scenario whereby the boxes of footprint, parking and access are all ticked. You have a stadium 10 minutes' walk from Lime Street Station linked directly to a brand-new commercial development that could house bars, restaurants — Planet Hollywood, Mr Earl? — a cinema, a hotel and apartments... basically all the extra-football revenue generators that made the Kings Dock such a wonderful opportunity.

Not only that, it could be argued that the stadium itself would attract far more in the way of year-round use than would one located on the edge of a retail park next to the M57 in Kirkby. From concerts and conventions to wedding receptions — if you live in Liverpool, get married in Liverpool and just have to have your reception at the home of the Blues, would you want to travel to Knowsley for your reception? — and corporate parties, it would all be there in close proximity to the beating heart of Liverpool, part of the Liverpool City Centre experience.

The "retail/business park experience" provided by the new crop of purpose-built stadia like Derby's Pride Park and Reading's Madjeski Stadium is soulless by comparison, the latter sitting adjacent to B&Q and junk food outlets and surrounded by corporate buildings and industrial properties.

With the match-going experience so woven into the fabric of many fans' lives, the idea of pausing to contemplate for what they would be trading their Goodison rituals by voting in favour of the Kirkby option is not something to be casually dismissed.

Everton in Everton: The Scotland Rd site would bring the club home to the district in which it was founded in 1878
Map 1 - Everton ward
Maps:
"Everton in Everton"
Urban Regeneration
How far is too far?

Well connected

One of the chief arguments put forward in favour of the proposed relocation to Kirkby is access, the natural assumption being that because it is right next to the M57 and within 10 minutes' walk of Kirkby rail station, the stadium would be ideally situated.

It's certainly true that given the high proportion of fans who reside within a walk, cab or bus ride from Goodison Park, it's conceivable that thousands of fans will elect to take the train to Kirkby on match days. In reality, it's hard to speculate how many would opt for the train over the bus or a cab from the city but there is some question whether the single rail line that serves Kirkby would be able to cope with the potential demand.

Assuming it can, the bigger problem may be those fans arriving by car, especially when you throw Saturday shoppers at Tesco into the mix.

Paradoxically, in the case of motorway access with few tributaries, it's often close proximity to a major artery that causes the most problems because cars leaving the slip road often hit upon congestion immediately, potentially causing the backlog to extend back onto the motorway itself.

The Madejski Stadium, similar to that proposed for Everton in Kirkby in that it is a retail/commercial/business-park stadium, is a case in point. The ground is visible from the M4 and fed from that motorway and the town centre by the A33. With it being miles from the core residential areas, the vast majority of match-goers are coming by car, taxi or bus and that can lead to gridlock around the ground on match days.

[My personal experience was one that I fear could become a problem in Kirkby where the stadium and potential attendance would be twice the size of the Madejski even accounting for those fans coming on foot from Kirkby or by rail. The A33 crawled from the M4 all the way to the ground before the game and, with everyone jumping into vehicles at the same time after the final whistle the whole area was gridlocked for what was close to an hour, if I recall correctly.]

By contrast, the tunnel loop location is within easy walking distance of Lime Street as well as Moorfields, James Street, Central and Brunswick stations, multi-story car parks, a ferry terminal, major bus terminals and is effectively served by every major artery that feeds central Liverpool itself.

Aerial view of tunnel loop
Aerial view of the tunnel loop looking southwest

Critics of the Scotland Road option cite potential traffic congestion as one of the biggest reasons why it's a non-starter, but it's conceivable that conditions on the roads would be little different from the typical experience in Walton — although, granted, the Wallasey Tunnel could bear the brunt of any increased congestion. Goodison Park has one of the fastest dispersal rates of any Premier League ground, owing mostly to the fact that a large majority of fans walk to the ground. In fact, according to a survey a few years ago, more fans walk to Everton's home games than any other top flight club.

With the tunnel loop just 2 miles from Goodison, it's hard to see those habits changing. Throw in the fact that all of Liverpool city centre's pubs and restaurants — plus any that might spring up as part of or as a result of the stadium development — would be just a few minutes' walk away and you could have an overwhelingly high percentage of fans arriving at and leaving the ground on foot.

This is all, of course, speculation and a detailed assessment of the impact on traffic would probably be required to confirm or deny the objections of those who have been quick to write the "Loop" site off as not viable. Naturally, the same goes for Kirkby.

Where's the "sugar daddy" to pay for it?

Head and shoulders above any obstacle to the "Loop" proposal is funding. It's a given that with no liquid capital with which to play and only one major asset remaining — Goodison Park itself — Everton FC cannot even remotely fund the construction of a new stadium by itself... hence the need to use Knowsley Borough Council and Tesco as crutches in order to deliver the Kirkby Project and the absence of a Plan B on the impending ballot.

As already established, Bestway (Holdings Ltd) have now emerged as a potential partner in a large-scale commercial development after Warren Bradley approached the company with a proposition involving a stadium for Everton on the "tunnel trumpet" site. In Bradley's words, the site "fits like a glove," an observation based on much more than just the physical dimensions of the site. Here was the potential to deliver to Everton Plan B.

Unlike the Kirkby Project, which appears to be being driven by Tesco, with Knowsley and Everton the willing beneficiaries, where the "Loop" project is concerned it is the council who want to lead the scheme and funding would likely come from a conglomerate of commercial partners (Everton included), the Council and might — one would guess — attract external funding from the EU or government quangos all working towards a wider regeneration and commercial development.

According to Bestway's Head of Property, Malcolm Carter, Bestway are "participating" rather than driving the proposal but have been central to the initial announcement because they own the proposed site and have taken the lead in opening discussions with a stadium contractor to pull together an appraisal of the viability of the site. LCC have appointed a dedicated internal resource to manage the proposal and the investigations into its viability.

Suggestions that Bestway are in it to make a quick buck with a swift land sale are countered by Carter's vision for how the proposal is likely to work. He uses a "pot" analogy whereby various assets are put in and taken out of the pot to help fund the scheme.

By way of examples: Bestway could give up the "Loop" site in exchange for LCC-owned land somewhere else in the city; Everton ostensibly get the land inside the "Loop" at no cost to the club because Goodison Park itself is likely to be redeveloped at some point, possibly by the very scheme which would provide the stadium at the tunnel loop.

The key to the scheme is this potential urban regeneration and commercial development scheme of which a new stadium for Everton at Scotland Road would be just one component, albeit a major one. There, once again, are the parallels with the Kings Dock which required a relatively small contribution from Everton for what was a wide-ranging project.

And the club would be entering into a partnership not simply focused on the tunnel loop and the area immediately to the south — although that would be the primary focus — but one that could involve new developments elsewhere in North Liverpool, be it half a mile away or two miles away.

Act in haste, repent at leisure

As foreign billionnaires flock to the Premier League looking to capitalise on the boom economy — or at least the impression of one — of the English game and the transfer market inflates to ridiculous levels as a result, Everton's apparent inability to compete with the spending habits of even the likes of Wigan and Fulham this summer has been brought into sharp focus.

It has also served to instill a sense of panic among supporters who fear that the club could be surpassed this coming season by clubs of smaller stature but bigger transfer budgets and eventually left behind in the race to remain on the heels of the "big four".

While the rhetoric emanating from the club in the run up to the vote on the Kirkby Project is seeking to prey on those fears — Keith Wyness has issued warnings that Goodison Park could be unusable within a decade while Mikel Arteta's assertion that the possibility of a new stadium was one of the reasons why he elected to sign a new contract is also being used in the propaganda war — it's tempting for fans to believe that Everton are in a do-or-die, now-or-never situation.

But we act in haste and jump at what bears the hallmarks of a short-term fix rather than an enterprise focused on long-term gain at our peril. Wyness projects that the relocation to Kirkby would bring in an additional £10m revenue per year based on increased attendances and the sale of executive boxes but there has been no in-depth risk analysis on the impact the move would have on attendance levels beyond the typical honeymoon period of the first few years after the stadium opens its doors.

An inner-city stadium at a location like Scotland Road would offer the same potential for a 10,000 more fans per game while potentially proving a bigger draw for corporate sponsorship and the sale of executive boxes. More importantly, by remaining part of one of Europe's biggest urban renewal projects and anchoring itself at the heart of a thriving city, the club stand to reap far bigger rewards in the longer term. At a time when, on the back of the award of European Capital of Culture status, Liverpool is undergoing unprecedented transformation and funding initiatives are flooding into the city, it seems unthinkable that one of its oldest and most famous institutions could be leaving to set up home in the next-door borough.

With the club's exclusivity agreement with Tesco and Knowsley, LCC have been able to suggest alternative sites within Liverpool but have not been able to bring potential commercial partners to the negotiating table. Now, with time running out and the stakes as high as they could possibly be, Warren Bradley has demonstrated that the will to keep Everton in the city is there and has promised the fans that an alternative to Kirkby will be put forward by the time it comes to vote.

Evertonians owe it to themselves — and the club owes it to the supporters — to give any plan for the Scotland Road site full consideration before condemning Everton FC to a lock, stock and barrel departure for Knowsley. Logistically, the site is viable. And if between LCC and Bestway a workable funding initiative can be proposed then the brakes need to be applied on the "Kirkby Express" with immediate effect. If the Everton Board won't do it, it behooves the fans to do it for them by voting an emphatic no when it comes time to cast their vote.

A follow-up to reader comments below


Reader Comments

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Mark Watterson
1   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:32:17

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Excellent article Lyndon. I’m pretty confident & optomistic that the Loop site offered by Bestway is large enough to accommodate a 50,000+ seater stadium although I still have grave reservations regarding the actual funding of the project. The question that I would really like answering is this: Are the current board of Everton directors prepared to explore the viability of another site after clearly spending so much time and effort on the Kirby proposal with Leahy & Knowsley Council?
Toffee Andy NI
2   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:05:53

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The loop site appears to tick all the right boxes that most Evertonians would consider essential to a new stadium. As Mark says above, the big issue that remains unresolved, is the funding of the project. Will the board step out from the Kirby (no other) option & even look at this proposal? Only time will tell. Excellent article. Superbly presented.
Mike
3   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:56:44

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I simply don’t believe the forecasts of more fans and greater corporate box sales at Kirkby and as these are the only worms on the hook, I’ll vote ’no’ to it anyway.
This article provides a clear, detailed account of one possibility if Kirkby goes ahead, which preserves the important symbolic position within the city and gives - it seems to me - a more realistic assumption of growth.
Alas, whereever we end up, the main obstacle to growth, BK, will still hold the keys to his toybox and the amount of extra revenue generated by ANY move is likely to be insignificant set against the inward investment enjoyed by so many other premiership outfits.
Brian Williams
4   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:54:20

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An excellent read Lyndon. How I’d love "The Loop" to become a reality. I couldn’t help but notice though how many ifs, maybes, coulds and woulds there are in there.
I believe that the voters may though opt for "definites" fearing that a "no" vote may mean a further period of stagnation, and with the Kings Dock debacle still quite fresh in the memory in the recent past.
If "The Loop" is to become a viable and, (love the word or hate it) deliverable, option then a lot of people have to get a lot of fingers out very quickly.
I firmly believe that if it is PROVED viable AND deliverable then the vote would be a resounding and overwhelming NO to Kirby.
Andrew Gilbert
5   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:03:52

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In the light of having read the Financial situation article and the significant cash issues it highlights, the loop and the additional works that may be required around it through road tunnels, underground parking etc costs could be more and make the propsal look unlikely. The fact that Earl has become a board member only suggests that more of his cash will be pumped into the club either for players or as supporting collateral for the Kirkby venture. When you get past the gloss the Kirkby venture appears quite an ask of the club. We’ve got to ask ourselves realistically how could the club begin to consider something that could or more likely would cost more?
Blue_Singh
6   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:57:51

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Nice article, with a real Plan B. Must go for it. Everton in Everton, its a dream come true. I can see a stadium of the Kings Dock Style in the Scotland Road. A wonderful stadium in the centre of a beautiful city that what we need to go for.
mick owens
7   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:00:21

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brilliant article , that gives me hope . Lets just hope that the board have the common sense to look at all the options .Everton fans are by far the best fans in the world who have a deep sense of pride for their club , they deserve only the very best, most evertonians have been through the mill numerous times supporting everton We need to make sure the board gets it right this time ,your article points out the commercial potential this site could bring I’m not a season ticket holder as I live in Oz now ,but I hope all Evertonians who are able to vote make sure they do the right thing ,weigh up all odds and think of future evertonians.
Logan Shave
8   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:07:08

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Fantastic article. It must have took you a fair few hours to write that one! I think the Loop site has great potential and is preferable to Kirkby, but I think the funding aspect is still a potential problem. I can’t see us getting a stadium at the Loop site for the £10-15M investment being bandied about for the Kirkby stadium.

I also can’t shake the nasty feeling that Kenwright & Wyness have already made their minds up, despite the upcoming vote. I’d have liked to have seen a vote which included at least one alternative option (such as the Loop site) instead of just "Kirkby - Yes or No?". It implies that it’s either Kirkby or nowhere.
John S
9   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:31:31

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Show me the money!

Nvertherless a great analysis.
Peter Whalley
10   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:37:18

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Well argued case. I think you need to make sure that this gets the attention of as many blues as possible. It needs to be e-mailed and linked to as many bluesd related sites as possible in time for the ballot.
Erik Dols
11   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:58:31

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I really hope this could work out, but to be honest iw ould be a great relief if I saw some more worked-out plans prior to the ballot.
Andy
12   Posted 30/07/2007 at 07:54:31

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It is obvious that Everton cannot build a ground themselves - sought help from the Council for years. I accept that the King?s Dock fell through due to our inability to fund the cost of the stadium and that no blame can be attached to LCC. However since then, very little has come out of the Council. Only when, what appears, a workable financial package has been presented from Tesco and Knowsley, has the council started to show a little more urgency and conveniently located a commercial partner.

Whilst the "Loop" solution is worth investigating, I believe that had this been a serious or viable option, it would have been put on the table a long time ago. Why has the council waited until Everton has announced its intention to hold a ballot to provide this information/solution? Is it because they want to derail the proposed move to Kirkby and influence the outcome of the vote?

The move is an important decision and one, which every eligible Evertonian should take seriously. However, before we vote we should judge for ourselves the merits of the proposed move rather than allowing us to be influenced by the council?s spin stories.

I remain sceptical about the move to Kirkby and wish to have more substantive information before I decide. However, I will not be influenced by false propaganda by the council. If the ?Loop? is a viable option, let them explain how the grounds will be funded. How much would Everton be expected to financially contribute? What obstacles are there? Etc. Maybe then we can make a more informed decision about our beloved club.
Kevin
13   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:40:59

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Excellent. The ’loop’ site would be the solution to all of what the board and the fans have been moaning about, facilities, retail, capacity, access, within the liverpool boundaries. As for the Robert Earl thing, with nothing against the people of Knowsley, I think a high profile eatery is likely to get more exposure in the centre of Liverpool.
Steve Hogan
14   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:50:30

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A nice cosy solution with willing partners, available finance, free landspace,LCC bending over backwards etc etc

Too little.too late I’m afraid, just a desperate attempt by Bradley to save his face. If it ever happened, it could take 7-10 years to come to fruition, how far behind as a football club would we be behind the others by then?

I thought the article was incredibly naive in it’s content and simply too simplistic.
Stockyblue
15   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:53:41

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There is no money put forward yet. No money no alternative.
Bestway seem ready to swap sites at no cost to themselves. They aren’t putting money in.

Delay Kirkby while we wait for funding partners to come forward?? There must be a time limit on this.
Dean
16   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:06:47

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how stupid are you all?

NO MONEY = NO OTHER OPTIONS!!!!

why can’t you get that through your thick skulls?
Col Wills
17   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:40:33

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This article by Lyndon should be read by each and every evertonian before they cast their vote- It may not change their mind, but, i would seriously question any decision to vote ’yes to Kirby’ without considering these options.I would suggest that this article ’must’ be published more widely ( in the echo??) The message is clear, that there are alternatives out there, and that Kirby should not be a fait accompli. At present, Bestway’s role in the plan is unclear, to make an informed decision,we require more information on funding arrangements, although that may come to fruition, so benefit of the doubt for now. From a corporate perspective, business’s are far more likely to use EFC if they are in the city centre(conferences, seminars etc), and i would love to drive/fly/walk into ’my’ city, and see ’my’ club sited where they belong, in view of the royal blue mersey.
Chris
18   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:03:05

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Simply the best article I’ve read on this site. As an expat Blue who has been overseas for almost 40 yrs and who still gets up at ungodly hours to watch the best club on earth, it could be argued that to me the location of a new ground which I am unlikely to visit is irrelevant. But the thought of those newcomers being able to call themselves Liverpool’s only football club makes me ill. Although the ballot won’t show a "plan B", get the message out to as many voters as possible that there is indeed a choice. Mobilise, campaign and show why Everton is "the people’s club" and will remain so.
Mike Kay
19   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:14:33

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Tripe article.

Everto have dealt with LCC for over a year and no sites came forward all of a sudden three arrive at once. The Long lane site even being dismissed by LCC’s own officers due to traffic congestion i.e. dead at birth. Quite clearly the loop side is a desperate attempt by a desperate politician trying to save face. It some respects I would like the vote to be a NO just to see these options disappear in to the ether one the vote is announced. DON’T BE FOOLED BY A POLITICIAN - QUITE CLEARLY VOTE YES TO KIRKBY - If you want the Blues to have any future.
Strewth
20   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:12:05

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This would indeed would be a very attractive option ticking all the boxes for everyone. Currently a reluctant supporter of a move to Kirkby, this option would be a dream. But is it just that, a dream? How does this really stack up? EFC’s contribution is effectively to swop its GP land for Loop land. But that’s all it has to offer having yourselves, elsewhere on this site, made much of EFC’s financial position. The central and in my view show stopping point is how would the construction of the Loop stadium be funded? Public monies whether domestic or EU can only be used to help finance supporting infrastructure (roads, rail, utilities) not subsidise construction costs for private businesses. So how and who funds the stadium? Its all very well being sniffy about them but Tesco are committing to fund the Kirkby stadium and in doing so putting their reputation on the line. Make no mistake I’d love a City centre site but without a clear solution to this central question we risk letting go a bird in the hand for something in the bush, maybe. Much as I agree all the rhetoric surrounding your piece about the Loop it ducks this killer point and in doing so has all the hall marks of KD about it. How many chances do you think we’ll get and can afford to pass up before terminal decline sets in? All else is peripheral Lyndon the cventral question remains how does the stadium get funded?
Greg Murphy
21   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:19:20

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As an incisive clarification of what is now, undoubtedly, a ?Plan B? worthy of investigation, Lyndon?s distillation of the ?Loop Plan?, contrasted against the deafeningly silent local media treatment of this development (save for the initial revelation - nothing since), should be welcomed by all Evertonians whether they are currently ?pro? or ?anti? Kirkby. The perceived dilemma for EFC (and it?s no dilemma at all, really) is that it probably thinks it will lose PR face if, after all its bluster about Kirkby and Tesco, it suddenly announces it?s about to open exploratory talks on the ?Loop plan?. In reality the opposite is true. The majority of Evertonians would, I?m sure, welcome the club?s responsiveness and adaptability if it suddenly announced it was to ?also? speak to Bestway/LCC. And explore the Plans C,D and E, too. By demonstrating such flexibility, the club would be signalling an administrative strength rather than a weakness and I, for one, would welcome the prudence, pragmatism and vision that I would hope and expect underpins every move of the Everton executive. It would be wrongheaded for the club to assume that the supporting base would see any opening of, even the lowest-level, talks with LCC/Bestway as an undignified climbdown. Instead it should be seen as an entirely professional response to an emerging opportunity and it is in such instances that corporate bodies show the true extent of their wit and acumen. There, I?ve done Ian Ross? PR for him. Now get on the phone, Mr Wyness.
stu
22   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:25:00

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Desperation is a funny thing. Both LCC and disaffected Evertonians both grasping at any straw no matter how ridiculous. It’s a fucking roundabout. At least the Switch Island plan was off to one side. Are you all that blinded by some arbitrary administrative boundary that you want to move to a fucking roundabout?
John Holmes
23   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:09:40

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It’s a good sell Lyndon and, IF the relevant parties can come up with a comprehensive enough package by the time of the ballot I suspect it would condemn Kirkby to the history books but the nagging suspicion remains that this is little more than a last-ditch face-saver from LCC. There’s a lot of whats ifs and maybes in there but the most glaring ones relate to its similarity to the King’s Dock project. The project we pulled out of because we couldn’t find the money when we supposedly had more of it than we do now.

I’d love to see this come to fruition, I don’t want to see Everton leave the city and relocate to a nowhere place. Sadly, I think there’s an air of inevitability about it unless someone comes up with something definite rather than just speculative before the ballot.
Bob Turner
24   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:26:13

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Where’s the money?? And how long do we hang around before the level of detail for this "alternative" matches that of the Kirkby project?
Steve L
25   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:32:38

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I saw the title of the article and thought "yes, some funding has been identified" but was wholely underwhelmed. The article mentioned ticking all the boxes but the one crucial one - FUNDING.

We’d all love a stadium just outside the city centre but unless there is actual money it can’t happen.

I think this is just another muddy the waters article written by someone who will say no to Kirkby regardless.
Paul Johnson
26   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:23:32

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I’d decided long ago that I’d never vote for a move to Tesco Town, and for many reasons.

The only downside to this stance is a feeling that there needed to be a plan B for those of us that don’t support plan A.

Since reading the Daily Post article a few weeks ago detailing the alternative sites put forward by LCC, I have become fixated on what to me is a no-brainer plan B - The Loop.

Before we argue on practicalities such as access, finance, footprint etc we need to win the hearts and minds of the tens of thousands of loyal Evertonians that we dare not alienate with any proposed move.

Tesco Town is a million miles away from achieving that objective. To many, myself included, it just ’feels wrong’. This is in addition to the many objective issues it raises.

The Loop, on the other hand, feels dead right. Talk about symbolic!

Vote NO to Tesco Town and let’s get some real momentum behind not just ’keeping Everton in our city’, but let’s take Everton ’home to Everton.
eddy elton
27   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:34:07

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We need to get articles like this out into the public domain before the vote. People need to see that there are viable alternatives. We must Vote NO.
Dan Mckie
28   Posted 30/07/2007 at 08:47:19

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Great piece Lyndon,but people who complain of the number of unanswered questions regarding Kirkby should take a look at "the loop" because it seems that it would be difficult finding a question that actaully HAS been answered regarding this site.A lot is made of other commercial partners coming in on the loop but somebody needs to make with some names already! We know that Kirkby will involve Everton,Knowsley Council and Tesco,where the loop seems to be Everton,LCC,Bestway and anyone else who wants a piece,which could take up huge amounts of time when it comes to deciding who gets what in the deal! LCC need to come up with a full and proper plan because until we have that,we have nothing but ideas and dreams which may never come to fruition!
Gareth Humphreys
29   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:27:54

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Excellent article Lyndon, my fears over this though are probably much the same as alot of peoples. Kirkby financially sounds great but that’s about it. BK/KW seem to see this as a cheap option and with most things in life you get what you pay for. As such if EFC are serious about moving then they need to get serious cash behind them. Admittedly this is far easier said than done. As such I do not feel that Kirkby should be considered and that the loop should - if it is viable. People are interested in it because (A) it is an alternative to Kirkby and (B) it is within the heart of Everton. One of the main reasons people are reluctant to leave Goodison is that because they are pruod of it - would we be of Kirkby ? If not, call it a day and move on to something that we will be.
Billy sea
30   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:33:04

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Funding....how about THE BESTWAY STADIUM, £IOO MILL..For starters.I change my mind every day... after reading the article think it’s a NO to Kirkby. I hope the club are speaking to Bestway and LCC now ,whatever the outcome of the vote we must not rule out the LOOP option.
Andy
31   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:25:11

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Good article and clearly shows that there are alternatives to be investigated. Without revisiting all of Lyndon’s points it is clear that the site geographically and potentially more importantly, emotionally meets Evertonion’s wishes. As for the commercial/balance sheet side. I appreciate the concerns of others in Everton’s fortunes but I would agree that it is bizare that EFT is considering departing a city on the up for what is a small, regional town, albeit, quasi-liverpool. As for Tesco, if Kirkby is good enough, any development of North Liverpool will also be good enough! I can’t vote as I’m an exile who can only get to 4/5 games a season but I would urge all blues to use your voice and vote no to Kirkby and get behind the lads against Wigan.
eddyelton
32   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:21:45

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nil satis nisi optimum.
Nothing but the BEST is good enough.
The BESTWAY stadium has got a ring to it hasnt it.
Ben Chambers
33   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:27:02

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Great Article Lyndon.

I am all for this loop site, it seems big enough and id in a good location in terms on access.

I hope we do get it and end up stayin in OUR CITY!! COYB!!

on a different note,

I have been informed that Alan Smith is staying in the Marriot in Town for the week while he completes his swith to us.

My friend is a DJ and was DJ?ing at Jermaine Pennants party on Sunday night and Alan Smith was there.

My friend asked him why he was down these ways and he told him that after 3pm today, he will be an Everton player.

I have made my friend swear on everyones life under the sun, that he?s not winding me up. He assured me 100% that he is telling the truth and he has heard it from the horses mouth.

Check the website after 3pm!!!

He also told me that Beattie will be leaving and its agreed!!

COYB!!!!
Chris
34   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:53:07

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Excellent article. I have grave doubts about the integrity of our Chairman.
It makes one realise now why Sir Terry was asked to be a business consultant approximately two years ago- about the time it takes to put together a project like Kirby.
I remember the quote from Kenwright about being "20 minutes" from signing a deal with NTL. He was on the board when Johnson was around and presided over Fortress Sport and Kings Dock.
In my view the problem lies with the Kenwright factor if LCC can overcome that even the finance could be resolved.
LakelandBlue
35   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:17:54

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We have no money to build a stadium ourselves. We couldn’t raise a mere £30m to be part of the prestigious Kings Dock project. Liverpool City Council has bent over backwards for the other lot, and is only now, at the 11th hour, trying to save face with the blue half of the city by throwing some panic, long-shot alternatives into the ring to muddy the waters. Knowsley Borough Council is welcoming us with open arms, and willing to give us land for free. Tesco, a British company, run by an Evertonian, is prepared to finance a stadium for us. Like it or not, there is nowhere else we could get this kind of deal. How long is the anti-Kirkby brigade willing to wait in a crumbling Goodison, adjacent to a state-of-the-art stadium rubbing our noses in it, for a fairy godmother in a blue tutu to come along with £200m?
drew walker
36   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:17:02

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Great idea. I can’t wait, "The stands could quite feasibly extend over the surrounding roadways by a few feet, either by horizontal extension, gradually at and angle, or by natural curvature in a dome-like structure." That says it all really, the site simply isn’t big enough, what fun to be sat with your arse a hundred feet above a busy road. The car parking’s going to be a bundle of fun as well, isn’t it. I was talking to a red mate of mine yesterday about the proposed stadiums for both clubs, he couldn’t believe the negativity directed to the Kirkby proposal, and made another very valid point "I can’t believe Liverpool are going to have this fantastic stdium and we’re still going to have to pay some scally £3 to look after our car"
Three sites mentioned by Bradley; Long Lane, even his own council dismissed that one out of hand due to traffic problems.
Switch Island, errr just how long has that been within the city boundaries then? If it’s ok for there, why not Kirkby? Apart from which, have you seen the traffic congestion there on a good day? Never mind the added match traffic.
The Loop? Oh do behave, it’s a shit-hole with crap access and comunication links.
I am leaning towards Kirkby but I would prefer a proper, open debate with the council putting forward sensible and viable alternatives. They have had long enough to persue this agenda (and forget the period of exclusivity, they could easily have been working behind the scenes to to find any potential investors) Give the council a month to offer up any proposals, a month too short? Well if they hadn’t been sitting on their hands doing nothing then they are not competent and do not deserve any better.
Mark
37   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:42:06

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I have grave reservations over this proposal for the Loop who is going to fund the stadium? At least with Kirby we will be getting a modern stadium that we desperately need and at a fraction of the cost to us. This proposal to move to Kirby is too good an opportunity to dismiss.
IT is time to bite the bullet and except change is inevitable, We all love Everton and want them to be successful and compete with the Mancs and chelsea’s but to ignore this opportunity to take the club forward would be a disastrous Wake up you fellow blues and smell the coffee!
KenDoddsDadsDog
38   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:53:29

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Excellent article.
Even if a little short on the funding front, the main thing is that there ARE alternatives and I’m sure even more would emerge once this Kirkby nonsence is put to bed once and for all.
The Loop ticks all the right boxes in my opinion. It’s in Everton, close to all the city centre amenities and retains the present match-going experience (ie. being able to have a pint with your mates and not forced into taking the car in a there-and-back-home scenario) and above all keeping our presence right where it needs to be felt. In the heart of OUR great city and not on some out-of-sight-out-of-mind periphery of it.
KW talks of Goodison being not fit for purpose in 10 years time so even if the Loop project doesn’t materialise we’ve still got plenty of time to come up with a better site than Kirkby anyway, so what’s the rush?
Vote ’No’ to Kirkby or it’s your grand kids and your great-grand kids who will end up wearing red!
Deja Blue
39   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:20:51

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If as Wyness has stated there is no plan B then what is the point of voting right now. Surely we have to wait until viable alternatives can be tabled for consideration. This begs the question as to why Kenwright for once in his mendacious & devious life has so rapidly opted for using democratic means to arrive at the outcome. Lyndon’s " Kirkby Express" analogy is wickedly accurate. Between now & the vote is there realistically enough time to properly consider the deliverabilty of any alternatives? If the answer is "No" (which I suspect is the case) then the vote should be "No."
To be honest I feel a postponement would be a more reasonable course of action & would prevent Kenwright etc from crying "foul" at a later date. "Act in haste. Repent in leisure" Too Right!
C R Benson
40   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:46:37

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Vote NO and look forward to walking
past the magnificent stadium of the
reds for the next 10 years as we
go to watch the Blues ply their trade in the Championship.
Vote YES and at least we have a chance of competing in the Premiership - Kirkby is not ideal,
But it is a REAL project - not just a
thought provoking article filled
with nice words and ’Ticking all the boxes’.



Anthony Newell
41   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:38:18

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I’m all for this, lets hope a funding package will come together to facilitate it and the parking/congestion issues aren’t insurmountable

This has the potential to plant Everton FC firmly where it belongs in a Cardiff Arms style set up (think of those steep terraces and fantastic atmosphere) walkable from the city centre. This could be a showpiece stadium capable of generating much additional revenue via non-football activities than anything out in Knowsley. Far more attractive to a foreign investor than the out of town cowshed

I’m no Mystic Meg but I believe fans will vote against the Kirkby proposal in any case
Danny Boy
42   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:52:51

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Just to shed a bit more light onto the legalities of this Loop proposal, under the ’exclusivity agreement’ we are currently held by, Everton are not allowed legally to explore this proposed loop project. Why? Well Knowsley city council have spent just under £500,000 on various development plans, environmental projects and residential ballots etc with a view to accommodating Evertons proposed move to Kirkby. The have rejected multiple offers from home builders (Barrets, Bellway) and various business (Ikea Interested after losing Netherton)) interested in using land of Evertons proposed stadium.
The terms of the exclusivity agreement state clearly that should a third party become involved via Everton during this period, Everton -solely- will legally be obliged to cover costs incurred by Knowsley council, including compensation for losses incurred.
Money wise, we can only speculate how much this would cost Everton, but it doesn’t take a mathmatician to see why we do not appear to be pro-actively exploring the loop.


John Charles
43   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:23:11

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If the Loop is viable and of comparable -even slightly more expensive- than Kirkby then of course I personally would vote yes all day to the loop over kirkby.

I cant help feeling though this is diversion tactics from LCC to make us vote no, then they will gives us the price on there terms after Kirkby is gone.

Good article Lyndon, but until LCC and Bestway say "here is the stadium design, here is how it is funded" then to me it doesnt exist.

I urge any fan groups who have even the slightest ability to put pressure on LCC to come up with figures and guarentee’s prior to the Kirkby vote. You can hardly blame us for being sceptical... nothing from them for 5 years and then low and behold here is a great option for us 3 weeks before our big vote.
albert velthuijsen
44   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:06:54

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forget kirby !!!
SCOTLAND ROAD WILL GET MY VOTE !!!.

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM.
Ian Pilkington
45   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:04:24

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An excellent article as usual by Lyndon. Incidentally, thousands could not take the train to Kirkby as the line is only single track from Fazackerley and cannot accomodate more than the 4 trains per hour service currently operated. The line from Wigan to Kirkby is only a 2 coach hourly service (none on evenings & Sundays). Goodison is served by Kirkdale (8 trains per hour) and Sandhills(12 trains via Soccerbus). Buses to Kirkby would ofcourse be in the same traffic chaos as private cars, the owners of which would have to wait for ages to leave the designated car parks-like the Reebok Stadium but with double the average gate! I am convinced the Board haven’t even considered how the average fan will get to Kirkby.
Cindy Cole
46   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:30:26

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A superbly orchestrated article, Lyndon, in which you elucidate the thoughts of many Evertonians re: plan B. Whilst some are understandably sceptical with regard to financing ?the loop? site, we simply cannot afford to dismiss this option based upon what we don?t know. It seems many in the pro-Kirkby camp base their arguments on spurious financial projections. The truth is, we don?t know the actual costs and contributions incumbent upon EFC should, God forbid, Kirkby come into fruition. As regards the long-term financial future of the club, the loop site, in a rejuvenated city centre, would undoubtedly represent a far more astute investment (whether it was completed 1, 3, or 5 years after the proposed completion of the Kirkby site). Why sacrifice the club?s identity and foothold in a magnificent, historical city for a quick buck and the back-arse of nowhere? The most important decision in the club?s recent history awaits those who can vote. Voting ?yes? to Kirkby is a vote backwards, towards negativity, future decline and championship football. Voting ?no? is a vote for choice, optimism, the preservation of our heritage, and potential for a far more prosperous future.
Tom
47   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:31:36

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Nice read and all that, but the site is tiny. Suddenly we have all these stadium experts, so I’ll be one for a minute or two.

The Loop is tiny.

And so we build, say a 50,000 seater stadium. Great. But IF we needed to expand, we’d be shagged.

And already we’re sitting in a stand that goes out over a main road!

John Charles, spot on - ’Good article Lyndon, but until LCC and Bestway say "here is the stadium design, here is how it is funded" then to me it doesnt exist.’
Barry Bragg
48   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:57:42

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’The Loop - it can be done’ is a tad OTT Lyndon. Well written piece and I can fully appreciate how it will appeal to those anti Kirkby amaong us. I have to admit that even as a pro Kirkby I felt myself being drawn in by your piece even though I am not convinced of many aspects of it.

I don’t feel the site is big enough and your description of overhanging stands and curved structures make me think you feel the same. I don’t believe the access to a stadium on what is essentially the worlds biggest roundabout would be as easy as you suggest. I think it is going to cost a lot lot more to complete and EFC’s contribution will be greater (money we don’t have) especially without the sale proceeds of GP. That is if there is actually a realistic opportunity there in the first place (which I am not convinced of).

However if Bradley as you say is going to put more meat to the bones of this thing over the current month then I think the club should postpone the vote on Kirkby for a month or two and at least look at it. As you say, the club has to be seen to be doing the right thing and examining all the options for the long term future of the club. I don’ feel the loop can be done but it’s up to the club to confirm that through discussion before they finally conclude that Kirkby is the only option.
Phil Smith
49   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:27:14

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Warren Bradley is an Evertonian and leader of LCC however this does not make him all-powerful. I’m sure there are many reds on the council in positions with the power to make life very difficult in providing a "deliverable" alternative to the Kirkby project. This is not to say that I am in favour of Kirkby I am not for all the logical and emotional arguments levelled against it on this site. I am in fact suggesting that a NO vote against Kirby might actually give everyone on the LCC the impetus to find a new home for Everton in side the city boundaries. Everton fans like Bradley would presumably try out of love for the club whilst the rest of them would surely not want the crumbling edifice that is Goodison Park ruining the effect and impact that a pristine New Analfield would project. So I am suggesting that there would not be years of stagnation for Everton rather the opposite as LCC would have good reason to want to see us moved in time for the whole area around Stanley Park to be redeveloped. I suggest we say NO to Kirkby and hang around like a bad smell until a truly acceptable site is proposed. There’s a lot to be said for using nuisance value to get what you want in the end.
mick
50   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:07:41

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You just managed to change one person’s mind. Excellent article which should be sent to BK and KW as soon as poss.
Gerard Madden
51   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:58:40

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Are you all blind or something? The loop is absolutely tiny and the pictures in this article only proove it even more.

Two things would have to happen for us to move there - 1) The loop road would have to go somehow and 2) If not then we can forever forget about a possible 60,000 or more stadium for us. Far too small and landlocked.
EC
52   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:20:43

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Sounds great etc etc but you all know what the real sticking point is.

For what its worth, I’d be happy for the club to go into more debt to secure a city centre site than get a freebie on the outskirts.
Bob
53   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:40:08

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I may be cynical but if The Loop is such a desirable and prestigious site, why didn’t the red loving LCC offer it to the redshite. Just a thought.
zed-victor-one
54   Posted 30/07/2007 at 11:50:35

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Oh I get it we should vote no because something must turn up. The Loop! Lets all ignore the practicalities of locating on a roundabout with its size restrictions, congestion problems, access, site conditions etc etc. Tell me you know these are solvable as you urge us to discard a very credible Plan A. Oh I get it if the Loop doesn’t work out we can always switch attention to the other glorious options. Long Lane - oh no thats now been ruled out by LCC. Switch Island, oops outside the City and owned by Sefton who’ve already said bog off. OK redevelop GP - oh yea can’t do that either we’re skint! Never mind if Plan B doesn’t work we can activate some clowns idea for Plan C "to hang around like a bad smell" till something does happen. What a future and what a legacy! Our terminal decline becomes an annex to LFC’s business plan. But hey at least we’ll have died and got buried within the City boundaries.
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:17:05

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Lyndon you have surpassed yourself with an article very cleverly researched and written and one that steers clear of scaremongering tactics and deceipt, I implore all supporters whether they be for or against the Kirkby proposal to at least read this article and think hard.
Jon Matthews
56   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:11:55

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I am desperate to stay in the Liverpool boundary, but not desperate enough to take the worst piece of land available.
The loop is stuck between the Kinsway tunnel, Scotland Road and Great Homer Street and is a relatively small piece of land.The site is also below the level of the surrounding roads, it won’t be the roar of 50,000 Evertonians that will be heard in the City Centre, but the sound of 50,000 coughing and spluttering from the pollution from the gridlocked roads. The roads will be jammed, because how can you expect a site at the tunnel entrance to cope a vast influx of fans between 1pm and 3pm?
If Bestways leave this site, who would possibly want a gridlocked site below the surface of the road? It wouldn’t be bought by a propety developer because everybody knows pollution tends to settle at the lowest points and who would buy a house in a smog bowl?
I think the idea of this appalling site being used the house a 21st Century arena is a bit far fetched.
Steve
57   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:07:33

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the kirkby move is wrong, plain wrong.

Any possible alternative should be looked into and the Loop option on paper looks good. The Kirkby option ’on paper’ looks dodgy to me.

How many supporters do they reckon are going to make the those extra few miles? But imagine how many walk or get off at Lime Street for the Loop?

I’d love us to stay and revitalise Goodison Park (and am saddened tho accept the fact that it is past it’s glory days) but I would rather have more than one option shoved down my throat those with a financial gain involved . .
Mark Brad
58   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:30:32

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great article, this needs to be took into consderation by all blues. a must read for voting evertonians, lets get it out there and spread the word.
A codling
59   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:00:07

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Blatant last minute propaganda spanner in the works by LCC. Why was this not brought to the public eye months ago? All of a sudden on the eve of a ballott LCC have all the answers!Get Real!!!! Lcc have treated us like a redheaded stepchild. Futher more LCC couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery. Look at the debacle with the Tram deal and the "Big Dig" in the city which has sent some companies bust.
Bob Parrington
60   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:01:28

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To Lyndon Lloyd - Halleybloodyluyah! At last somebody is talking sense!!!
Colin Malone
61   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:34:07

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I,m comming out of my depression, reading this option. It would be the next best thing to the kings dock.Get this article printed in the Liverpool Echo for all to read.
Tony Miller
62   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:05:57

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An excellent article that has taken a great deal of time to compose. However it is pure speculation, I have a great deal of respect for those who run this site as amongst other things it provides all evertonians with an opportunity to express their views.The article’s title certainly made me excited in that there was going to be a concrete alternative to what I still believe is a good choice in Kirkby. Having read through it I had the feeling that I was reading the ramblings, albeit well thought out ramblings of a man who just cannot accept the inevitable. The loop site when muted did nothing to excite me when it was first revealed. Having driven past there on numerous occasions and now having examined the footprint it confirms my initil concerns it just is not big enougth for now and certainly not for the future. The area surrounding the site in North Liverpool is hardly inspiring yes there is talk from LCC of regeneration however this has been talked about for years and nothing has come to fruition. South Liverpool has and is still seeing improvments, North Liverpool has been forgotten, other than the Eldonian which was more of a private venture. This I feel is nothing more than a political gesture. There are too many questions to ask, too little time to find answers, high noon as arrivied and we cannot turn the clock back. I respect other opinions but feel this is nothing more than a dream, somthing to pull at heart strings nothing more. I would finally ask show me a feasable plan incuding infa-structure which is deliverable in the next 5 years. By this I mean in place built and being used. But more importantly in this dog eat dog world SHOW ME THE MONEY.
Mike Squires
63   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:09:10

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Lyndon

You put an atractive case together but where’s the money coming from and how long will it take to put the deal together? The Stadium issue has been going on for 10 years or more. How much longer will we have to wait? another 5 years maybe whilst we get the funding ,planning etc.
Every year we delay puts us further & further behind our competitors. Don’t forget the club is skint, we need to do something now. VOTE FOR KIRBY!
Paul Burns
64   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:52:39

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Any alternative to a certain slow death in Kirkby has to be explored.
Why is there no money? This has yet to be answered, how come we’re the only paupers in the world’s richest league?
Kenwright has showed himself to be an out-and-out liar and the club has not moved on one iota under his tenure despite Moyes pulling his tripe out.
Make no mistake,a move to Kirkby would kill Everton FC as soon as the gloss wears off the new "identikit" stadium and the fans drift away, tired of struggling to get to the middle of nowwhere. I’m sure Tesco will be alright though.
People have got to look past the pathetic performance of the city council; we won’t be getting at them by moving to Knowsley, we’ll be cutting off our nose to spite our face and it will cost us in the long run.
Steve Ryan
65   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:13:23

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Outstanding article Lyndon and thank you for your dedication to the cause. Would anybody mind sending this article via a link to all of the other Everton websites,
Thanks.
Alex May
66   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:18:54

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Great article Lyndon and if the club refuse to even explore options like this one then the vote should be a resounding NO. Such a refusal would prove that they don’t care a jot what’s best for Everton in the long term.

Too many responses talk about Kirkby being the only option. You should rememeber that BK and KW are not forever, but they want to saddle us with something that will outlive you and your children.

We even have one response that shows the poster has been taken in by the Nutty Professor, Tom Cannon. ’Say No to Kirkby and certain relegation waits’. Learn to think for yourself FFS!

Is this a definite starter? Not without much investigation, but that’s precisely what the club must be prepared to do.
G Street
67   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:31:51

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Imaginative idea certainly, but I feel lacking real potential - how long would it take for the underground car park to empty after a game? For ever.

As for fans walking to the ground, building regs dictate that you have to have sufficient car parking. Bolton tried to be clever after they got their planning permission and part of their car park was sold off, officials reduced capacity at the Reebok by about 2000 as a result!

Who will pay - that remains the major stumbling bloack.

The question is asked of Everton - how do they know their projected attendances and corporate attendances etc are acurate - well how sure can you be that corporate people would want to walk from Lime Street (not the pretiest of areas) or struggle with delays in an underground car park.
Tony Miller
68   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:43:57

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Still on topic re the Kirkby stadium, but slightly left field, when are the results of the indepth poll to be released? Apologies if this has already been said.
Dave Waugh
69   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:44:28

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I’d rather stay in Goodison for now, even if it takes a few years to come up with another proposal than suffer an agonising and slow death in Kirby. I agree with the Cow Shed comments - take away the fancy lighting on the photos and it will be as Naff as the Middlesborough Riverside. It just feels like we’re being edged out of our home, only for the scum to assume dominance in the city, even if the reality is we’re handing it to them on a plate. They must be laughing their t*ts off.
M
70   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:47:45

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I work as a transport planner and have some comments on the above article, I?ve tried to keep it short.

Firstly I agree with the comments about the loops central location will utilising existing transport infrastructure in the city and similar to goodison.

However the issue of building new infrastructure structures (bridges, walkways, tunnelling roads, underground car parks etc) as part of the loop scheme and maintaining them is underestimated.

These are always extremely expensive and often go way over budget with many examples locally and nationally. If the above is needed its likely to make this scheme hard to deliver in a short/medium time period.

Kirkby should be able to mitigate such long delays with its much better high capacity road links compared to the Reebok and Reading. Its rail capacity should be able to cope by running longer trains and the proposed electrification to Headbolt Lane (in as a possible scheme in the Mersey LTP) would help. Without all the traffic info I wouldn’t want to predict too much.

A New Anfield side note, while not a total no-goer, the use of the Bootle Freight line for passengers to allow for a ground expansion is going to take a long time and lots of money to happen if at all. Expect the Yanks to get very frustrated; they?ve never worked with a company with Network Rail before.

From the outside it looks like Transport-wise LCC have let LFC get away with alot.
Andy H
71   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:23:22

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I can’t beleive the desperation to latch on to any ’pie in the sky’ scheme in order to give people false hope. Once again, there is absoloutly no mention of how Everton FC would raise any funds for this project. The phrase ’one would guess’ with attract external funding - is laughable. Lets deal in facts not supposition. 1. Everton do not have funds to purchase land for a new stadium - Knowsley are giving £50 million worth of land for FREE. Bestway is a commercial business answerable to shareholders - do you honestly think that they are going to do anything other than sell this land at a premium rate? They are responsible to shareholders, not dewy eyed football supporters.

2. Warren Bradley assertion, that Goodison would fit like a glove into the loop is claptrap. I find anything this shister has to say difficult to believe in the least. This is thev man who claimed in the press that he was being frustrated in his efforts to talk to Everton because of the exclusivity period, and then happened to mention over 20 meetings in 18 months, prior to dropping his dummy out of the pram with his ’Cowshed’ remarks. This man is a political posturer out to save face. LCC have long since had there own city regeneration programme and agenda marked out before Capital of Culture. Everton FC does not fit in to that masterplan

3. Where oh where are the access points to this stadium? completely surrounded by dual carriageway, it would take a public enquiry lasting 18 months to 3 years before any decison was reached regarding rerouting roads in the area, added to this the 3-4 years for construction, our revenue streams would continue to suffer and the big 4-6 would continue to get away from us.

4. Who pays for the construction of the stadium? Once again Tesco are driving the Kirkby project, because they will be financial beneficeries from the building of a superstore that will be aided by the redevelopment of the area as a whole. If Everton’s ’new’ ground fits snugly into the loop, where is the room for the development of commercial partners, alongside that would drive the project and the area, so reducing the cost of the £150-200 million that Everton would have to pay for the stadium?. No? didn’t think so.

All in all, I am convinced that there are to many ifs buts maybe’s and grasping at straws. There again is no factual evidence to support Lyndon’s theorys, with regard to this project. This has nothing to do with being for or against Kirkby, it’s about giving false hope to supporters over a project that will never see the light of day in a million years.

CoDy
72   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:21:44

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This is a good idea

As an Evertonian it is logical and right
As a regen consultant it is place relevant and hits several buttons. I can see some traffic issues but these are resolvable with good design. This could include expanding over existing road cuttings
As an urbanist I would hope to see great urban design, and a stadium that connects to the City Centre and Everton. The latter is one of the poorest performing wards in the UK. It needs life going into it, not being sucked away. Adjacent brownfield land could be used for support activities including commercial, leisure, community, and even football use
Location wise, it?s far better than Kirby, and offers the chance to emulate Portsmouth, Liverpool, and numerous other world stadiums by introducing cutting edge architecture and design. If Goodison must be rebuilt, the club should make a statement about its past and future through a great and original stadium. This is a journey and it has to include the fans, and represent a City. It must have a wow factor and create pride for Evertonians and indeed Merseyside
As a businessperson, I have little time for Tesco and their pernicious methods of delivering brand and market share. Hence far better for the club to build with clean hands and free of any partner, with the possible exception of the current site owners and local authority. I don?t know how they would finance this, but there are Directors, and others close to the club, who regularly make the Times rich list. Then there are naming rights and other assets to sell, plus range of corporate finance opportunities to explore
I don?t accept Kirby as the only options. Businesses succeed of fail because of projects, and projects should always include options. Even doing nothing is an option. Therefore it?s a case of mobilising some ?blue? sky thinking and not just seeking a quick fix, that could in time prove to be a huge own goal
Paul Burns
73   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:55:00

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Other planning transport issues include keeping cars off the road and reducing carbon footprints. How does making the club with biggest amount of walk -up fans move to by the motorway just so 300 away fans can get away easier fit in with this?
Jon G
74   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:35:18

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Ridiculous article.

Just arch stands over busy roads?
Just enough room to fit goodison in as it is?
No room for car/coach parking facillities?

The fact is that to build a modern stadium you need much more room. The reebok has a similar footprint to Goodison and is comparable in size, if not in capacity. Just loo at the emirates, three times the size of goodison but only one and a half times the capacity.

Stop clutching at straws, no-one even brought moving to Kirkby up as an issue when we voted yes to a ground move in the late nineties. It is the anti Kirkby movement which is utilising propaganda, not vice versa.

Goodison was not within the boundaries of Liverpool when we moved there, and furthermore niether was Anfield when we moved there! We have never moved to a site within the city!

This is all sentimental bull.
Neil Pearse
75   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:03:23

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Self-delusion is a very powerful thing!

The site it too small, and there is no way yet of funding it.

And, yes, it has come from the LCC at the eleventh hour as a desperate way to save their political arses.

So: site too small, no viable funding, a nakedly political deception.

Yes, apart from that, it’s perfect.
Dan Mckie
76   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:06:53

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The whole ’most walk-up fans’ is probably a myth,its just that we all have to park so far away from the ground that it just looks like we all walk!
Dave
77   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:08:36

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Very well-written article. Realistically how much of a head start does Kirkby have? All that’s been published so far is a few hours worth of photoshopped stadium pix. Apart from the Kirkby promises being made by Tesco and Kirkby council instead of Bestway and LCC, what’s the difference?
Dan Mckie
78   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:31:56

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The difference Dave is that the Kirkby project already has all parties involved and wont be searching for ’other commercial partners’ and it also has figures and funding in place (if we believe what were told by KW) whereas "The Loop" is just a "lets build one over there" story at the moment designed to get the anti-kirkbys excited and make Warren Bradley look like he gives a shit!
chris roberts
79   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:31:21

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I’m weeping here. Really weeping at the nonsense being written. As a random example:

Apart from the Kirkby promises being made by Tesco and Kirkby council instead of Bestway and LCC, what?s the difference?

Apart from one being a well structured and costed business plan that’s taken months to plan and the other just a haphazard scheme cooked up by deceitful chancer (yes YOU Bradley you useless prick!) keen to get in the Echo?

*still weeping*

Tony Miller
80   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:38:32

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My thoughts exactly Chris.

This is, bullshit of the highest order forgrt for now Billy Bullshit welcome to the new owner of said title Bradley Bullshit.
Alfred lord Tennyson
81   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:50:25

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Down the league down the league,
Down the league onward,
All in the valley of death
Rode the 500 club:
?Forward the people?s club!
Charge for the board he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the 500 Club.

?Forward the Moyes Brigade!
Even tho were dismay?d
Not tho? the young fans knew
Some one had blunder?d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of death
Rode the 500 club.

Chairman to right of them,
Chief Exec to left of them,
Tesco in front of them
Volley?d & thunder?d;
Storm?d at with shot and shell
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the 500 club.

Why did their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the World wondered.

Honour the club to stay!
Honour the Moyes Brigade
Not towards Kirby way
For the 500

Say ?no? to the move!!
Eddie Ginley
82   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:40:36

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May I be the first to say if the new stadium is built on "The Loop" or in Speke then I will stop going to watch my beloved Blues.
Sound stupid? Of course it does, just think how stupid it sounds when you say the same about Kirkby.
If you don’t want to follow the club then that’s your choice, just do what the other shower did, stay at the old ground and form a new team, you could even play in red if you want, in fact, it would probably suit you.
andrew nolan
83   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:58:03

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we should defo move here i would donate money for us to move here if i have to everton in everton all the way come on kenwright
Vicky Lox
84   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:07:12

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What do you call a Liverpool supporter without any arms or legs? - Trustworthy. Anyway, just logged on to toffeeweb and will read all individuals points about todays subject matter. Subsequently I will return with my own views when I have managed to read the colossal amounts of views by each person(s). Lets hope we can have a steady if not unspectacular season. Hope they can get rid of Beattie before the said season commences. KEIOC.1878
BigRon
85   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:17:48

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The future of EFC will not be doomed if we are still at Goodison in 2009...Stu, Dean, Steve Horgan, Mike Kay, CR Benson... what are you on?
You are trusting the spin about Kirkby put forward by the board who have dragged us into this mire in the first place.
Did you never query why the board were asked to ignore all other possible opportunites for "exclusivity"? If there (supposedly) weren’t any other options then Leahy had nothing to worry about. Tesco are just in this for the money and when the vote comes back NO they will make millions from another venture on the site.
They DO NOT CARE what happens to OUR football club in 20 years time - when all kids in Liverpool schools will be wearing red.

The Loop may not be the future but it is at least a suggestion of something other than Tesco Town. Any Everton fan who votes yes should hang their head in shame as they condemn us to being no better than Bolton/ Wigan/ Boro/ Reading etc

A NO to Kirkby is a NO to Kenwright/Wyness and a YES to the future of EFC.
Bob Fletcher
86   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:31:32

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Call me cynical maybe, but if the Loop is such a prestigious and desirable site, why didn't the red loving LCC offer it to the redshite. Just a thought.
glen strachan
87   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:18:15

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Excellent article Lyndon.

Thank you for presenting with obvious care , a positive alternative to the Kirby plan.

Finance is all over everything about football today and sadly our beloved Blues are run by an owner and executive who are simply BAD MANAGERS OF THE RESOURCE THAT IS OUR FOOTBALL CLUB !

In any walk of life it is surely dangerous to place your confidence in somebody with a very poor track record in Management when that person offers you Hobson’s choice and admits lacking the simple wit to devise a plan B.

Just a final thought on reading Lyndon’s piece , will a No vote to the Tesco plan lead Bill Kenwright closer to looking for a buyer for the club ?

I sense the No voters might just be seeing the tide turn their way !

Intriguing !
Joe Rourke
88   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:40:58

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This link appeared in ’El Pais’today (in Spanish theres photos and a 3-D animation)
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/lago/parque/175000/metros/cuadrados/edificables/elpepuesp/20070730elpepunac_4/Tes, Aletico Madrid are planning a move from their current motorway/river locked ’Vincente Calderon’ stadium to an adapted athletics stadium which will be co-financed by ’Mahou’ (beer) and a redevelopment of their existing stadium...increasing from 48,000 to 73,000 capacity stadium... the current stadium looks a lot like your proposed loop option!!!
Barry Hughes
89   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:01:34

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Great article! even if we can not shoehorn a stadium into the loop site the whole of that area from everton park sports centre right through to st annes st is ripe for redevelopment, a stadium should be the focal point for the regeneration of the Everton area.EFC, LCC and any number of partners should get together to make this happen, something that will benefit the whole of the city of Liverpool.The ’dark side’were granted permission to build on stanley park on the strenth of regenerating the anfield area.Lets keep this ball rolling, this move effects the generations of Evertonians yet to be born.
tom morris
90   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:51:43

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I’m afraid that I stopped reading when I saw the bit about the ’stands extending over the current roads’.

If we’re to come up with a ’plan B’. let’s at least make it a sensible one.

A stadium in the middle of a traffic island ? Heavens above !
Art Greeth
91   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:44:26

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You know Chris Roberts, I feel a bit the same. I’m growing increasingly concerned at just how this is playing out.

"Everton in Everton" has a wonderful, appealing ring to it. And it excited me at first, but then I read Lyndon’s article a second and third time and the flaws started to appear. They are self-evident, as already listed by others.

This whole proposal smacks to me of a spoiler ahead of the stadium vote. The Kirkby nay-sayers accuse the club and supporters of a move of waging a propaganda war to influence the yes vote. I actually believe the club is being incredibly passive given what is at stake.

And therein lies my deepest concern. The Loop proposal ticks all the boxes, says Lyndon. It doesn’t - not by a long way. But the hope of it may be enough to scupper the one and only genuine regeneration and financial package the club has received in a decade - a package that could vastly improve EFC’s fortunes within three years.

The loop proposal is a vaporous one, but it has a strong enough emotional pull to torpedo the Tesco/Knowsley deal and potentially leave the club with... nothing.

Like you Chris, I am genuinely close to tears over this.
Greg Callaghan
92   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:07:12

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Stopped reading when you saw the bit about the stands extending over the roads, then Tom? Not been down Villa Park (the Doug Ellis) or Old Trafford (the North Stand) lately then hey?
Neil Millichip
93   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:09:56

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It only looks a viable alternative if LCC leader, Warren Bradley can come up with a in depth plan that shows how funding would be achieved and a detailed plan of the stadium. Unless he can do that before the vote, i think we have to vote yes because moving to Kirby is better than doing nothing. If i had a vote I could not vote no on the basis that Cllr Bradley’s plan which is lacking any depth or clear proof of funding, would be achievable. We cannot afford to stand still any longer and let teams like Wigan, Fulham etc, out bid us in the transfer market. I would love Everton to remain in the city, i hope for Everton’s sake he can deliver his alternative to Kirby in some detail and it’s enough to convince everyone who has a vote to say no. But is this to little to late from the LCC who should have been drawing these plans up years ago?
Steve Callan
94   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:22:25

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If it’s that good why has it taken till now for this scheme to be put forward? It’s Warren Bradley trying to make it look like he’s done something (years too late) to keep Everton in the City and you lot at Toffeeweb backing him because you hate Kenwright so much that any pretence at objectivity long went out of the window
ryan crest
95   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:26:45

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You what! Build a new stadium on a tiny traffic island? That’s desperate.
Greg Callaghan
96   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:28:25

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Any chance of doing us a favour, Joe Rourke? I just can’t get that link to work. Can you go to the website http://masl.to/ and create a shorter link? I’d love to see those plans. Cheers. Ironically, the Vicente Calderon that Madrid are planning to leave, actually has a four-lane motorway underneath it!! Meanwhile Landsdowne Road, currently being redeveloped, has got a train line running underneath it. Bizarre the way so many responses to Lyndon’s piece have been so hung-up about hangovers or build overs. As though it’s some sort of space-age technology.
Karl Masters
97   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:10:28

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Well done Lyndon. It’s time we had people with a bit of vision and imagination putting forward a case. The ones who think we will rot in Goodison if we vote No are running scared of Wyness’ scare tactics. Vote No and get the Club to explore other options. They simply must exist in a City with plenty of derelict or badly used land that is enjoying a building and investment boom. When added to football’s investment boom, somebody will be out there.
Greg Callaghan
98   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:05:23

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Well said Karl Masters. Funny how the pro-lobby (whose views I respect and fully appreciate) always claim the "visionary" (read moral) high-ground. Yet when they are actually presented with a bit of vision that hasn’t been force-fed to them by the Club they’re the ones who then go all wobbly. God, it’s only a conversation that we need to have with Bradley/Bestway (no-one elese has been able to speak to EFC for nine months!). What’s to be so meek about? Bit like the pro-lobby are the ones who always claim they think with their heads whilst the anti-lobby can only think with their hearts.
mick
99   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:00:38

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got to admit i was going to vote for the kirkby move after reading this article i have serious doubts,its just the funding thats going to be the problem
Steve Taylor
100   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:19:50

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It’s a great piece - but the idea is so flawed you could drive a coach & horses through it.

1.No car parking
2.The site simply isn’t big enough!
3.Where’s the cash coming from?

If people vote no to Kirkby in the vain hope that a scheme like this will replace it within months - they’re completely deluded.

If the ardent No voters win the day - don’t say that you weren’t warned - it’ll be a disaster for the Club’s long term future.

Carry on - vote no, because it means cathcing a bus, finding a new alehouse to have a pre /post match pint in! Because if truth were told, many are basing their view solely on petty self interest. Sad, but true
ray
101   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:22:24

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If Leahy was such a massive Blue, and is funding Kirkby from the goodness of his heart will he accept a NO vote and fund a Tesco on Scottie? I doubt it because I think for him it’s a cold business decision. Where does he want his new Tesco? In Kirkby. If we don’t go he will tell us to fuck off. So forget the supposed ’twenty five million pounds worth’ of ’free’ work from the Tesco contractors and the magical ten million a year for Moyes as a result, it’s a business move for Leahy and a career move for Wyness. We are bigger than Tesco regardless of their annual turnover, they need us more than we need them.
Wyness is just formulating an application in advance of his ’dream job’ at Man U or Chelsea.
They will both jump ship when their personal targets are met. An empty Tesco under a half empty stadium, in Kirkby.
We need time to source funds and partners for any alternative, the Kirkby stadium will NOT be ready in 2010, it will go overbudget without a doubt: our debt will be larger than the ’ten or fifteen million’ mentioned by Wyness for the fitting out of the stadium.
We can compete on the pitch if nowhere else so why not do that first and think about an extra 15k seats when we need them.
Mark
102   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:53:26

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I stopped reading when it was suggested if it doesn’t fit build it over the road, extending outward in a arch over the road. I don’t think so. Dream on. With transport and public highway infrastructure required it’s to expensive.
Ray Robinson
103   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:30:49

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When I read this article, at first I was filled with optimism that there would be a viable alterntive to the dreaded Kirkby option. Then I thought, "I’m being asked to vote on this in about a month’s time".

We’re desperately short of information on the Kirkby proposal but this alternative is even more sketchy (funding!) and didn’t even exist a couple of days ago.

I need more solid information on both proposals before I can vote with any clarity. Please let’s have the vote postponed if there is any prospect of this alternative seeing the light of day. What good would a "yes" to Kirkby be if this alternative can be made viable and, equally, what good would a "No" to Kirkby be, if this remains a non-starter.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
104   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:03:22

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Empassioned reactions from both sides, as is to be expected. It’s important to clarify that the article was merely an attempt to counter the assertion that the "tunnel loop" site is an absolute non-starter. In the absence of any other serious discussion in the media of its possibilities, the idea was to describe how the site could work with the right will and funding.

I never claimed to have all the answers — as a mere fan, how could I? — but there is a logic to what is being proposed by LCC and Bestway even if you have doubts it could ever be funded.

A more detailed response to your comments can be found here.
Dave
105   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:02:55

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Lyndon

Thanks mate, for the thought and effort you so obviously put into this, you should be applauded by all.
If only the " kirkby’s the only option " brigade were prepared to put in an ounce of the time you have.
I expect some to disagree, but feel utter disgust at the "cant even be arsed listening to alternatives" stance these people have adopted
To thousands of us, a move to Kirkby represents our biggest nightmare.
How can fellow Everonians be so dismissive is completely beyond me
kirkbyblue
106   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:23:14

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TescoTown!

Traditionally, Kirkby is believed to have been founded circa 800 AD. The first direct evidence of a settlement dates from 1086 and the Domesday Book, with a reference to Cherchebi - population 70.
Greg Callaghan
107   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:27:33

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Oh do play a different record Steve Taylor. If the ?pro-lobby? isn?t accusing the ?anti? crew of thinking only with their hearts, then they?re levelling the base accusation at them that all they?re really interested in is their pre-match pint! Anyway, that?s what you call driving a coach and horses through Lyndon?s piece is it? Point 1) Parking. Whaaat? No parking? Now it all depends how close you wanna be to the ground, Steve, but I?d say that there?s a big European city right on the doorstep of that Loop site with an array of parking facilities. That?s not to mention the JM University at Byrom Street which copes okay too. Besides, at weekends and evening kick-off times, there are areas around the Leeds Street brownfield zones that have acres of parking spaces. In any case, the site is within walking distance of trains, masses of buses and a big floaty ferry thing. How the hell does Greaty cope, hey? Point 2) The site isn?t big enough? Er, yes it is. You just don?t want to be convinced of it. Next you?ll be telling me some real fairy story that, way back when, they used to fit footy grounds within tight Victorian terrace streets! Fair enough, it ain?t big enough for an Olympic Village but for a 50,000 footy stadium it?s enough allright. Go to Google Earth: Tools: Ruler: Line: Yards: and measure the dimensions of the current Anfield and Goodison sites and then square them over the Loop site. Better still, if you can find a parking space, go and take a walk on foot and then still insist you can?t fit a stadium on it. I remember Arsenal originally saying Ashburton Grove wasn?t big enough. Point 3) Money. Well that?s the point of having ?the conversation? isn?t it? And if what I hear is correct, we?re not going to find out about the cash side of things this side of the vote. Why? Because EFC has been in a love-in with Terry Tesco for the past nine months, that?s why, which was the clearest sign to any potential enablers (sic) like Bestway not to bother (for now). What most of us stupidly expected was that when the oh-so-convenient ?exclusivity? period finished, the club would then start to explore other potential plans and then provide us with a ?compare and contrast? vote sometime towards the end of 2007 circa AGM time. Instead, we?re being railroaded into a Tesco vote just one month after the so-called ?exclusivity? period has finished (and one month after Bobby ?gimme a large restaurant, a bowling alley side order and a maxed-up mini casino to go? Earl assumes his timely ?naming rights? seat on the board. I, for one, would be disconcerted if we were given the full low-down on Loop enabling this side of the EFC timetabled vote (and I doubt Bestway would even be prepared to be dictated to on a ?speak now or forever hold your peace? basis like that). Let?s face it, it?s taken nine months to sort Terry Tesco?s enabling structure. And yet we expect Bestway to ?show us the money? in three weeks. Now, say what you like about Bradley but Bestway aren?t gonna ask ?how high?? to EFC?s demand to jump unless they get some sincere signals the the club is treating them seriously. Yeah, like the rest of us, you?ve Sherlock-spotted the obvious question in the whole Loop potentiality but you certainly haven?t driven a coach and four through Lyndon?s piece (where would you park it, anyway?). And spare us the tired old ?head v heart, they?re only bothered about ale? yawn.
tommy gibbons
108   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:05:47

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The loop, its loopy if you ask me to even contemplate any offer from LCC.. haven’t people grasped by now that the city of liverpool no longer wants us!! LCC offered the Kings Dock to LFC before they offered it to us, they gave Stanley Park to them after we’d enquired first, when LCC went to Shanghai a few years back they promoted LFC, LCC do not want EFC in the city.. I really do believe that the likes of Lyndon and all at Toffeeweb are modern day luddites trying to stir up the local scallies and fight against change..the difference being the luddites were honourable men trying to save jobs, whereas the Toffeeweb lot seem just to have it in for anything good that happens to EFC and try to stir up the scalls with sound bites and promises but nothing substantial. We know the situation we are in is full of emotion but we cannot let the heart rule the head any longer, we have to move or die, it really is that simple.. I don’t afford the current board the kudos of their 1892 predecessors but I do applaud that from the mess that is EFC (to which they have also added) they have pulled off what is in any terms a fantastic deal for the club and in doing so is also contributing to the regeneration of one of our boroughs where we draw massive support from.. so tell me again which one of you has been to Kirkby town centre and called them all a gang of woolies?!.. Not scousers, not part of Liverpool, its as scouse as Kirkdale & Everton where most of their families hail from.. Vote yes for the good of our club and an area of Liverpool sadly neglected for years because of an imaginary line..
Blue1878
109   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:42:06

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The suggestion pulls at the heart strings & I wish it could happen. But the sad truth is it not feasible. The proposed area is land locked, meaning further development of a ground would be out of the question. I liked the idea of a Monte Carlo style tunnel, but how much would such a structure cost? Remember, Everton can’t afford a ground as it is, let alone building ambitious projects over major roads.

There is also the question of the much mentioned retail partners. Everybody needs food, washing powder, toilet paper etc... & Tesco is the countries biggest grocer. The site in Kirkby would attract people from the surrounding area to spend money both at Tesco & the other proposed retail outlets (something similar to Cheshire Oaks I’d imagine). The plan mentioned here is for more leisure based companies to help fund the ground. As much as we all like to, people don’t need to go to bars, restaurants & cinemas. And personally I don’t see people leaving the city center, with all it’s established bars & night life, to come to an artificial leisure area. Please don’t take offence at the next point, but North Liverpool is not the most affluent of areas. I don’t believe the majority of the population could provide enough business to keep the proposed leisure area at a level where it could compete with the city center. I’m not having ago at North Liverpool or it’s population, it’s just an assumption based on what I know of the area having lived most my life around Seaforth, Bootle & Walton.

A retail park would not work here either. In the city center a massive shopping district is being built attracting major retailers. Which retailers would be attracted to a less glamorous location so close to the one being built at the heart of the city?

This area just doesn’t work. A better option would have been the Long Lane, Aintree suggestion. Not as desirable I know, but a retail park would have more chance to succeed there. Meaning retail partners would find it attractive & be more likely to help in building a stadium.

I don’t know what it is about the Kirkby site. Forget, if you can, that it lies outside the city boundaries. It might tick all the boxes but it doesn’t feel right. In the same way moving to Speke wouldn’t feel right (even though that area is in the city). The main problem is this issue should have been looked at & discussed after the Kings Dock fiasco. New site’s should have been identified then when more locations were available. Now, with the biggest decision on Everton future in the balance, it seems some parties are desperately trying to make it look that alternatives are available.

Far too little & way too late.
Paul M
110   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:03:09

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Loop or just loopy. Have the vote no brigade taken collective leave of their senses. I cannot imagine and have never seen a more ridiculous site for a modern 50,000 seat stadium. We are all looking at the same picture aren’t we ? A roundabout surrounded by multiple dual-carriageways, that could just about fit a stadium in if we build out over the roads ! But hey, its in the city boundry so relief all round. You’ve written some great articles Lyndon, but that wasn’t one of them. There are so many holes in the ’loop’suggestion, the obvious one being where does the money come from ? Bestway ? I very much doubt it.
The whole idea is a red herring, and I’m willing to bet that ten years from now it will still be a roundabout.
Just a quick reality check for Ray. Tesco are a hell of alot bigger than we are, and certainly do not need us one little bit.
jeffrey
111   Posted 30/07/2007 at 21:33:50

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Not a chance in hell...the Loop site is way to small and congested to facilitate a football stadium, this is all a load of bull from Bradley to say at least he tried as soon as the move to Kirkby is confirmed.
Neil Palin
112   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:40:58

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The Loop site is a much more attractive option than Kirkby..Although the club are not lookin at the bowl type stadia, is what worries me about the viablity of this location..also the funding side which has been discussed time and time again..However I believe Everton need to be in the city and the Loop site is the best option IMO, great location, in Everton itself, City centre a ten minute walk..I will be voting No to Kirkby
Ben Higgs
113   Posted 30/07/2007 at 21:52:33

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the fisrt paragraph of your article sold it me "Envision, if you will, a home for Everton in the district where the club was formed 129 years ago and in which the old Roundhouse in the centre of its famous crest still stands. The floodlights of the stadium are visible as you exit LIme Street Station or walk down Scotland Road from the direction of Walton. As you drive out of the Wallasey tunnel, the home of Everton FC is the first thing you see. The roar of 50,000 fans is audible from the city centre.
it just feels right
tosh
114   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:08:00

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the LOOP every evertonians dream
great article lets hope it can happen wyness wont be with everton in 5 yrs he out 4 his quick buck of tesco PLEASE VOTE NO 2 KIRKBY OR U WILL KILL A GENERATION OF EVERTON FANS WE WHERE BORN IN THE CITY AN HERE WE MUST STAY !!!!!!
jonney
115   Posted 30/07/2007 at 21:35:10

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Chuckled all the way through it - build a new stadium on a roundabout oh and we haven’t got any money to do it but its a viable alternative to a fully costed and funded partnership with one of the most powerful retailers in the world??????????????????
Bilbo
116   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:39:04

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What a fantastic piece Lyndon.Jonney wake up and smell the coffee. We dont need retail when you have comercial backers and LCC land and other regeneration money dickhead. You should know it isnt a roundabout as you most probably drive through it on a regular basis. Do you think we are getting a stadium for free ? already fatty as told us the stadium is goner cost 50 100 150 million and rising. If they get planning permition it will becalled in on a variety of objections puting it back another 2 years to 2112. So what will the price be then ?????
colin Riley
117   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:24:29

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Everyone needs to say No to Kirkby together until plan b is presented and even a c.If we dont stick together on the bigest decision in a hundred yrs of Evertons history and we accept a move away from our spiritual home to the borough of Kirkby im afraid the cosequences for us all are dire.I can see it causing divisions between fans indefinately.I for one would look in the eye of an Evertonian sat next to me and think are you one of the fools who voted yes to this.Friends will fall out it will be like Celtic & Rangers fans hating each other only worse cos we support the same team.Tee shirts will be printed with i voted no on them,caps & scarfs too.God knows what else.Its going to cause murder is it not.?
And who has caused all this division at our club,The showman and his dog muttly.Im afraid he has failed as Evertons chairman because he has failed the fans.Does anyone for one minute believe Lfc would go to Kirkby.Not a chance.Well why did our board not give it the short rift the very notion it deserved.
Lyndon Loyds article has excited me and thats what our ground move should do.Well done and well presented.I feel there could be hope for us all very soon.,because this has been the worst summer as an evertonian since Rooney left thanks to our board,when it should have been one of the best for years entering a european competitian with a quality football team we have and some smashing footballers to watch with the pride they have all shown in wearing that royal blue shirt.Cheers for ruining my summer pal.
So calling all Evertonians to stay together on this and say no no no to Kirkby and march a few hundred yards up the road to our spiriual home by the roundhouse.At least lets put our weight behind the best proposal we"ve all heard in years.And pray to god it can be achieved,cos i for one dont want to resent another evertonian for putting me in where i didnt want to be.All for one ,one for all.come on all you blues.Say no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Howards Hipflask
118   Posted 30/07/2007 at 21:28:50

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I’ve just been on Google Earth, and measured the longest dimension the tunnel site could contain (from the NE to deep into the SW corner, assuming an Elliptical shape), it gave 220m.
Did the same for the Reebok, longest dimension 210m. OK, you could do a few things to up capacity beyond the 28K of the Reebok, overlapping tiers etc, and the extra 5m each side is another 7 rows, i.e. 5K or so seats. So maybe 35K, maybe 38K, but definitely nowhere near 50K. (Assuming Google Earth is remotely accurate).
So sorry, lads, it’s an absolute none starter, which makes me wonder about Bradleys motives.
As for overhanging the tunnel slip roads, of course it can be done, e.g. One Side of Landsdown Park, One side of Celtic Park, One End of the City Ground (though the North Stand at OT is a bit of a red herring). You can’t get behind one of the sides at Hillsborough either iirc. The difference is here we’ll be taking about 3 sides, and you’ve got to provide for circulation, unless we put all our turnstiles at the SW corner! So what the stands need to pricipally overhang are the pedestrian routes around the ground, to the tune of 10m or so(?). Anyway, the point is we’d be nowhere near 50k and hanging a few rows over the tunnel sliproads wouldn’t alter that. The worrying thing is, if this is the Best the city can come back with, Kirby here we come.
steve
119   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:35:04

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Madness, get real has anybody been down there, the area is penned in by major ring roads, about the most obstructive place to put a stadium. Seems like we are clutching for any old scrap of land that anybody’s willing to put our way. what about the middle of switch island?
paul
120   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:31:08

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This is the first i’ve heard of the loop option but i for one would be all for it. The majority of blues fans i have spoken to do not want to go to kirby, We are the origional and oldest club in this city, we were born here, and raised here, this is where we grew to be one of the country’s biggest clubs, and it was the people of this city that made that all possible. through thick and thin, through constant threat of religation this city’s people showed up in their tens of thousands and built this club over 129 years to earn the right to be called The Peoples Club. And now we are told we have no option but to move out of our home city. I for one will never go to kirby to watch "The OTHER PEOPLES CLUB".
Shame on you kenwright, shame on all of you for even considering taking this ""SCOUSE TEMPLE away from us. I’m disgusted to be associated with you. You are all rats as far as i am concerned
steve
121   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:47:57

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same story, from same people, causing the same problems who were against the kings dock move and that was in the city. if we don’t make the move to kirby we will still be arguing about this in ten years from now.
I for one will be watching the blues wherever we go.
Paul
122   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:45:33

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Just say NO, To "THE OTHER PEOPLES CLUB" Kenwright OUT.Kenwright OUT,Kenwright OUT,Kenwright OUT,Kenwright OUT,Kenwright OUT.
steve
123   Posted 31/07/2007 at 00:00:53

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go and play with donald and mickey accross the park.
tommy gibbons
124   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:51:12

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Hey Paul.. you epitomise everything thats is sad about ’scousers’ parochial attitudes.. I went to chelski last season and saw someone like you shout all kinds of obscenities at a man & wife because he wore a hat, that abused passers by because they where cockneys or somehow different, your the kind of scouser we constantly strive to get rid of, those that think we’re owed something.. don’t you get it..the peoples club was just a soundbite, it ain’t true.. So this rat hopes you never come to Kirkby, stay inside the line and support the redsh*te, they’ve got supporters who built their club up to from within what they think is their city..you stay with them..please..
Mike Mills
125   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:41:09

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Size queens shouldn’t scoff at the Loop site - architects and engineers went to university for years to work these problems out. Arsenal built 60,000 seater Ashburton Grove on a tightly positioned scrap of land between two diverging rail lines in a congested part of north London. Everton at the Loop site is a magnificent option: roundabout or not, its a great position. It is big enough for a large stadium that would guarantee bums on seats and would fulfil Everton’s ambitions.

Location is everything - can you imagine 45,000 trotting out to Kirkby for a mid week game in November against Wigan? They don’t do now so why would Kirkby guarantee extra income? If the new stadium was in the heart of the city - it’s obvious for so many reasons that attendances would be higher generating extra revenue.

Just one thing though - where’s the funding coming from for this? Its all too late; Evertonians have furrowed brows from the disappointments of the past - this option would have to be fully costed before the voting deadline in order to get a fully supported ’no’ vote, even if this is a ’viable’ plan B. I think Evertonians will vote ’yes’ to Kirkby because they know its the only thing that will keep this old lady alive - which is extremely sad. For me the ballot is about two options - turn into Nottingham Forest or turn into Bolton/Middlesbrough. God help us. Only the Loop can make us truly great.
steve
126   Posted 31/07/2007 at 00:30:15

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Can’t imagine anybody being able to walk to the loop site, your right location is everything, you must be mad to even contemplate it. one good thing we would be able to gas visiting teams with carbon monoxide poisoning.
Terry
127   Posted 31/07/2007 at 00:47:04

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Surely this loop idea was meant for April 1st! It is a joke and a club of Evertons stature should not even consider moving to a site on a roundabout. Talk sense, Kirkby is the best option on the table, LCC do not want the Blues lets vote yes and move this great club on.
bluedownunder
128   Posted 31/07/2007 at 05:01:53

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lets make no mistake here, if we say no to kirkby this site might turn out to be what i suspect it is, ie a load of old bollox. then what? kirkby again? i dont think so the board wont go there again, so what then? stay at goodison and watch moyes and the players leave at the 1st opportunity thats what.
Gareth Jones
129   Posted 31/07/2007 at 04:55:58

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I think this was a very well written article. It has certainly made me think twice about voting yes.The Loop site would be a perfect location to move to in an ideal world. Moving back to our birthday and close to city centre with all its bars and restaurants would be ideal. It would also give a substantial of liverpool with the like of conferences and non-matchday hospitality due to its proximety to the city centre. Lets just hope the lcc can come up feasible structure of how it can be funded within evertons budget in the next few weeks.
Steve Taylor
130   Posted 31/07/2007 at 05:45:46

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Nice Idea, but this board and BK have neither the foresite, will or the money to make it happen, due to their piss poor management.
However, make no mistake, that does not mean that I will vote for Kirkby either!!
Why is that?
1." The Kings Dock money is ring-fenced" BK quote = Lies
2." Goodison may not be able to get a Safety Certificate in 10 years time" KW quote = Lies and scare mongering.
3.What has new director Robert Earl brought to the party, apart from Sylvester Stallone?
4.We are being told that if we don’t move to Kirkby the club will "stagnate" Where have these people been for the last 20 years??
5.Chang beer is shite = FACT (Sorry couldn’t help myself)
6. If we stay, 38,000 people will still turn up every week. Will that still be the case in 10 years time if we are in Kirkby, watching a team that has failed to progress due to the boards failure to invest money in the team?? Don’t think so.

PS.
New seasonticket arrived today and it is grey and un-interesting just like BK, and speaks volumes for the way in which the people who run our club are thinking.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
131   Posted 31/07/2007 at 07:01:21

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Steve Callan: "You lot at Toffeeweb backing him because you hate Kenwright so much that any pretence at objectivity long went out of the window."

Steve, I don’t hate Kenwright, not even close, and I bear him no ill will whatsoever. I can empathise with him, actually, and I don’t envy him in the slightest.

What I’m backing here are the calls to at least give the loop site some due consideration. If it turns out that it’s bollocks, not feasible and a logistical non-starter then that would be that.

All I can say is that I have been told its do-able based on preliminary impressions but a full feasibility study will make a case for it one way or the other.
BigRon
132   Posted 31/07/2007 at 08:13:28

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ATLETICO NEW STADIUM VIDEO...

http://www.elpais.com/videos/deportes/peineta/Atletico/Madrid/elpepuesp/20070730elpepudep_2/Ves/
Karl Parsons
133   Posted 31/07/2007 at 08:36:09

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I’m fimly in the zed-victor-one camp.
Lyndon I love your energy and devotion to Everton but get a life man - it simply does not stack up.
In 12 years time all the baby blues - from all four corners of our mighty City - will carry on the traditions of our great club - just as today and wonder what the fuck all the fuss was about!
Two things to remember here: firstly once the new stadium is complete (in Kirkby) and the Club is debt free it makes us a massively attractive investment opportunity. There’s absolutely no need to invest in infrastructure because somebody else did that for us. This offers REAL financial return potential and could act as the catalyst to expansive player development.
And two: Kirkby is spelt Kirkby not Kirby. How poor a debate is it if some doubters cannot even get the name right.
Everton: Whereever and whenever they play.

Neil Millichip
134   Posted 31/07/2007 at 09:47:10

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Having just read the brochure that has been sent out to voters, Everton cannot afford to stand still and wait for Plan B. There is no real alternative to Kirkby and missing this opportunity will be suicidal for the club. Everton hasn’t got a pot to piss in. Look at the way we are scrapping the barrel trying to do deals for Baines and Smith. For the first time in ages we have quality players openly declaring they want to sign for Everton before any other club, only for the club to miss out because of lack of funds. Evertons squad is simply lacking in numbers to be a serious threat in Europe, maintain a push for a top 6 place or challenge in any of the domestic cups. We need more player ,but lack the funds to get them. Everton cannot compete with the likes of Wigan ,Fulham or some of the Championship sides in the transfer market. The board has a business plan that will enable us to compete if we move to Kirkby. Just imagine a few years down the road when the likes of Arteta, Cahill, Lescott ,Yobo & Johnson have left the club because of lack of ambition and Vaughan & Anichebe have been sold to balance the books. Unrealistic.......Think again. All for the sake of a boundary.
codd
135   Posted 31/07/2007 at 11:20:06

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couldnt agree more with tommy gibbons.
Paul get a life.
Get it into your heads there are no other alternatives because we are skint.
People who want to develop goodison are clinging onto a fading dream
Steve Lowe
136   Posted 31/07/2007 at 11:22:17

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Excellent article all blues should read Kirkby has no long term future the City centre would be a brilliant site everyone can get there be it by Bus Plane or Train Kirkby will only benefit the fans in Kirkby i live i Melbourne and we have two of the best stadiums in the world in arms reach of the City centre they are packed every week a few years ago a Stadium was built away from the City its now since been re developed for housing as no one wanted to go there I wish I could give my vote been gone from my beloved Blues for 17 years miss them every day Vote NO to Kirkby keep EFC in the City that they belong in.
ed fitz
137   Posted 31/07/2007 at 12:19:21

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Lyndon

Ignore the critics, its an article based on passion and logic. To be told by Wyness and Co there are no alternatives is an insult to this great club and its loyal supporters. Vote no to Kirkby
Tom
138   Posted 31/07/2007 at 12:26:03

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This is a well written and researched agrument, however the truth of the matter is it’s not based on anything other than a dream or a wish to remain at Goodison Park for ever and somewhat to late in the day.We all know the current ground is falling down and without moving to the only choice we have on paper, which is Kirkby we will regret it for ever.The club is something we hold close to all our hearts but its also a business and currently this business is not able to complete with the likes of Fulham and Wigan, on financial terms and I for one want this to change.The new stadium offers so much more better conditions and the chance to improve our financial status and so complete against with the major players.
Delaying the move just makes the managers task harder, getting new players is an overall package, which includes other than European football, it includes competative salaries, good condiitons etc and the move will help this.As hard as it is to leave home, we all do it eventually and you never know we might just like it.
Markus
139   Posted 31/07/2007 at 12:59:45

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I d really love to see Everton go to a location like the Loop, but its really a little small. Not to talk about infrastructure, but just did some measuring on Google earth and you couldnt fit many bigger stadiums in there at all. Lets say the Cologne Rhein Energie Stadium is still something we are looking at then if i measure across i get abot 230 metres to build on at the loop and the RES at least need 290 for only the stadium. If we could fit a good stadium in there i am all for it, but if we end with something that isnt much larger then Goodison i dont see any sense in it.
VeryConcernedBlue
140   Posted 31/07/2007 at 18:48:00

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"the move to leave goodison park and relocate to kirkby was one of the main reasons i was keen to commit my long term future to the club during the summer" - Tim Cahill, from the EFC official brochure, ’the future for everton’. I suggest you all read it and then decide if you want to see all our best players (and probably Moyes too) leave and be replaced with championship-level players because thats exactly where we will be headed. Do you all honestly think our best players will wait around for us to find the ’perfect site’ or care if we are inside the city boundary? PLEASE DON’T WASTE YOUR VOTE! Vote yes for a future!!!
Jon
141   Posted 31/07/2007 at 17:31:09

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What Everton F.C. need to realise is that it all sounds good a 50 thousand plus stadium but there will not be a fanbase to fill the seats!!! I will NOT be moving to an Industrial Park in Kirkby! The idea of going the match to me is not sitting in the ground watchin the sprinklers 2 hours before the kick off but having a pint with the lads before and after the match!! Do you really want to vote yes to moving to an industrial park in the middle of nowhere 20 minutes away from the city centre on a train?? I?ve travelled to Bolton, Derby, Midlesbrough & Stoke all nice grounds but in the middle of nowhere trying to get into a Bowling Alley for a pint!!!! It won?t be the same the match if we move to Kirkby as someone mentioned it just doesn?t feel right!! 3 possible sites LCC have offered us how many parks are there in Liverpool?? If the LFC can have a park why can?t we??!! the LOOP does tick all the boxes for me, people worry about where?s the money to fund it?? Bill Kenwright should answer that question is he seriously saying that no investors have loked at the 4th most successfull club in England with 40 thousand home fans and sell out away crowds even at West Ham on a tuesday night and not approached us before approaching Portsmouth or West Ham!!! The stadium issue to me is just giving us false hope and putting across to us that the club are moving forward! back in Europe and signed 2 players let 3 go!! Stop papering over the cracks Kenwright you know you need to step aside and let someone with money take our club forward and keep us in OUR city the 1st club to come out of it!! That is the issue not getting a free stadium off whoever has got a few quid to chip in here and there! If you do tick YES it will be the killing of our club Kirkby is not right for Everton F.C.!!!!
Steve Taylor
142   Posted 31/07/2007 at 19:22:41

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FAO Greg Callaghan.

Check out the above post from Jon....was I that far away from the truth? I’m not suggesting that’s the driver behind ALL no voters - just a %age.

The obsession with the city boundary issue is the one that makes me smile - it’s not as if the suggested site is in Wigan or St Helens - it’s Kirkby FFS, hardly the end of the Earth...

Even if the Loopy Loop was financially viable - I’d still choose Kirkby over it - as it’s not a good site for a new stadium, when there are other alternatives.
jonney
143   Posted 31/07/2007 at 21:56:29

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Bilbo - you say I’m a dickhead for expressing my own views - as usual the no voters are full of reason. You say we dont need retail when we have commercial backers - who are these backers? only other party is bestway and suggest you look up on google what they do for a living and ask yourself who’s the dickhead????? and how can you be worried about kirkby not being ready till 2012 when noone has actually come up with a real viable alternative in all this time - yes come on guys the loop - we’ve more chance of ground sharing with manure than that!!
Bob Fletcher
144   Posted 31/07/2007 at 22:33:27

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Jon do you think there are no pubs in Kirkby. There is probably more pubs and clubs within 1 mile of Kirkby Town Centre than there is at Goodison. Incidentally it is a shopping centre not an industrial park. Try visiting it.
Matt
145   Posted 01/08/2007 at 11:27:22

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Look we are struggleing to find the extra 2 million we need to sign a new left back, get real if you think Everton can fund plans for a new stadium other than the kirkby one.
To all the NO voters use your head not your heart... Its only 4 miles away for fuck sake!
edfitz|
146   Posted 01/08/2007 at 16:34:57

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Matt

I hate to say it, but red Stanley is right, we have the option wait until proper investment comes along and finds us a site in the city. It has not happened because of Kenwright.

Mick
147   Posted 01/08/2007 at 16:37:47

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Matt - Why do think that we cant raise a further £2 million for a left back?? I’ll tell you, because we have an inept board who think the only viable option for a stadium is the Kirkby despite LCC and Bestway going public and confirming they will draw up plans to help Everton FC. Kenwright has told lie after lie so why should we believe him now. We have a CEO in charge of a multi million pound business telling us there is no plan B. There is no words to describe such rubbish. Why do you think the Yanks scrapped the original plans for a new stadium for the RS to increase the capacity? Because they like Newcastle, if we move to Kirkby, will be a one team city and in years to come, will automatically draw the fanbase despite our best efforts as blues to convert our sons and daughters and continue the tradition of supporting our club. Everton owe it to every Evertonian to look into LCC’s ’plan B’. The new proposal is in the district of Everton, there is no better place to relocate. No to Kirkby. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.... Nothing but the best is good enough.... Kirkby is not the best for Everton.
Karl Parsons
148   Posted 01/08/2007 at 16:42:20

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Stan - The red:

This particular debate is about whether Everton should take new resisence outside our city boundary yet the only chunks you can spurt refer to attendence figures.

Granted the murderer comment earlier was uncalled for; but what gives you the right to start waffling on about how mighty your club is (in your mind only) and how poor our friendly attendences are (in your mind only). You just hate the fact we are a people’s club (irrespective of the numbers). Thank God tits like you don’t follow my team.

As for your investment arguement I refer you back to my comments posted here earlier.
Jon
149   Posted 01/08/2007 at 17:55:18

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Dear Stan, do yourself a favour and stay out of OUR websites! What's wrong are all your websites in Norwegian? Bob Fletcher, I have been to the proposed site and it?s a joke if you vote yes to the stadium it will be a knock on effect for future generations of Evertonians!! Are you people saying YES to this stadium actually not from Liverpool (I bet you Stan Howard isn?t!) because every Blue I?ve spoken to is dead against the Kirkby move. It is not right! Do you think Wyness & Kenwright will still be at Everton after the satdium is built?
Oh ye and about the comment:

"truth hurts!!"

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